A Question Of Grammar

[MelissaBaby]

Could I get some feedback on this?

SimonDoom made the following comment on the story I submitted for the One Night event. I respect him as a writer and a critic, but I am confused about this particular point.

Grammatical point: On several occasions, you combine complete sentences with a comma and no conjunction. Example: "Ray had a delicate hand, there was a lightness and elegance to each drawing." These should be two separate sentences.

To me, I see this as a matter of style, not grammar. I'd love to read what others think. I am very open to being enlightened if I am in error.

Would these sentences be considered ungrammatical?

"He was tall, he had to stoop to get through the door."

"Her beasts were enormous, they spilled out of her sweater."

I could, of course, stick an "and" into each sentence, but that feels like unnecessary verbiage to me.

Thanks for any input.

 

[tomlitilia]

Could I get some feedback on this?

SimonDoom made the following comment on the story I submitted for the One Night event. I respect him as a writer and a critic, but I am confused about this particular point.



To me, I see this as a matter of style, not grammar. I'd love to read what others think. I am very open to being enlightened if I am in error.

Would these sentences be considered ungrammatical?

"He was tall, he had to stoop to get through the door."

"Her beasts were enormous, they spilled out of her sweater."

I could, of course, stick an "and" into each sentence, but that feels like unnecessary verbiage to me.

Thanks for any input.

It would break my flow reading. And by any grammatical rule I've come across, it's incorrect. If you instead use a semicolon, it works.

 

[jaF0]

"Having a delicate hand, there was a lightness and elegance to each of Ray's drawings."

"Ray, having a delicate hand displayed a lightness and elegance in each drawing."

 

[Tio_Narratore]

Not really style. Two independent clauses need to be connected by a conjunction or a semi-colon in modern usage. If you want to avoid the and or but, use the semi-colon. It's what you're trying to do with your comma. They don't need to be separate sentences; I often prefer to use the semi-colon to accentuate the implied apposition.

As her the size of her breasts, since the second independent clause is in response to the first, a full colon would be in order:

"Her breasts were enormous: they spilled out of her sweater."

 

[MelissaBaby]

It would break my flow reading. And by any grammatical rule I've come across, it's incorrect. If you instead use a semicolon, it works.

Thank you. I am still shaky on semicolons. That's very helpful.

 

[NotWise]

Would these sentences be considered ungrammatical?

"He was tall, he had to stoop to get through the door."

"Her beasts were enormous, they spilled out of her sweater."

I could, of course, stick an "and" into each sentence, but that feels like unnecessary verbiage to me.

Each is an example of a comma splice, which is when two independent clauses are joined with a comma. Rather than "and," you could replace the comma with a semicolon, and it would match the rules.

 

[jaF0]

"He was tall enough that he had to stoop to get through the door."

 

[MelissaBaby]

Not really style. Two independent clauses need to be connected by a conjunction or a semi-colon in modern usage. If you want to avoid the and or but, use the semi-colon. It's what you're trying to do with your comma. They don't need to be separate sentences; I often prefer to use the semi-colon to accentuate the implied apposition.

As her the size of her breasts, since the second independent clause is in response to the first, a full colon would be in order:

"Her breasts were enormous: they spilled out of her sweater."

I am not sure that they are independent clauses, though. The expression "Ray had a delicate hand" is not a description of his actual hand, but of his drawing style. But, I have used the same construct elsewhere, and I take the point about using a semicolon. Thank you.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Great advice. Thanks, everyone, and thanks to Simon for pointing out the issue.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I am not sure that they are independent clauses, though. The expression "Ray had a delicate hand" is not a description of his actual hand, but of his drawing style. But, I have used the same construct elsewhere, and I take the point about using a semicolon. Thank you.

If the clauses can stand alone, that is, if they have a subject and a verb, they are independent. That was why Simon was suggesting you treat them as separate sentences. If the two thoughts are connected, however, it is often good from the point of view of meaning and structure to combine them into one compound sentence.

 

[SimonDoom]

Thank you. I am still shaky on semicolons. That's very helpful.

Tomlitilia is grammatically correct about semicolons, but as a matter of good style, semicolons should be used sparingly in fiction. It's better either to (a) split the clauses into separate sentences and use a period, or (b) join them with a conjunction and a comma, or (c) turn one of the clauses into a phrase.

In the case of your two sentences:

He was tall, he had to stoop to get through the door.

Her beasts [assume you mean "breasts" here, but I love the implications of this typo] were enormous, they spilled out of her sweater.

I'd write (1) as "He was tall, SO he had to stoop to get through the door.

And (2) as

Her breasts were enormous, spilling out of her sweater.

OR

Her breasts were enormous. They spilled out of her sweater.

I wouldn't use a semicolon here. Semicolons are a bit fussy for fiction, IMO.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I find semi-colons fine for description, but not for dialogue. Very few of us speak in semi-colons.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Tomlitilia is grammatically correct about semicolons, but as a matter of good style, semicolons should be used sparingly in fiction. It's better either to (a) split the clauses into separate sentences and use a period, or (b) join them with a conjunction and a comma, or (c) turn one of the clauses into a phrase.

In the case of your two sentences:

He was tall, he had to stoop to get through the door.

Her beasts [assume you mean "breasts" here, but I love the implications of this typo] were enormous, they spilled out of her sweater.

I'd write (1) as "He was tall, SO he had to stoop to get through the door.

And (2) as

Her breasts were enormous, spilling out of her sweater.

OR

Her breasts were enormous. They spilled out of her sweater.

I wouldn't use a semicolon here. Semicolons are a bit fussy for fiction, IMO.

Thank you, Simon, I appreciate the feedback.

 

[Hypoxia]

I find semi-colons fine for description, but not for dialogue. Very few of us speak in semi-colons.

But we DO speak in ellipses, em-dashes, caps, fragments, ahems, repetition, and rude snorts. My basic rule: Keep the narrative formal and clear with straight orthography. Let speech ramble and rumble a bit, but not too far, except for effect. And dialect mostly sucks.

 

[SimonDoom]

But we DO speak in ellipses, em-dashes, caps, fragments, ahems, repetition, and rude snorts. My basic rule: Keep the narrative formal and clear with straight orthography. Let speech ramble and rumble a bit, but not too far, except for effect. And dialect mostly sucks.

I totally agree with this.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I wouldn't use a semicolon here. Semicolons are a bit fussy for fiction, IMO.

That's a fussy statement; semi-colons should be used fit for purpose. If your style is fast and snappy, then yes, shorter sentences will be fine. But if your style is a little slower, more meandering (like mine and, indeed, Melissa's) then semi-colons are a handy way of keeping the beat.

They're a stylistic choice, that is all, just like a penguin's hat .

 

[GroverLang]

Don’t get hung up trying to be perfect.

Sometimes I think that writers in this type of thread are, to quote a phrase, investigating the ins and outs of a fart. I’ve read books, by very popular and consequently very wealthy authors, that are not perfect but it doesn’t hinder their sales. Readers understand what they are saying.

Try by all means to be the best you can. But don’t try to be perfect. The only perfect person is an idiot because only an idiot would believe they are perfect.

Be yourself. You can please...etc.

 

[Jada59]

The very first sentence should be two, in my opinion. The others seem fine.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's a fussy statement; semi-colons should be used fit for purpose. If your style is fast and snappy, then yes, shorter sentences will be fine. But if your style is a little slower, more meandering (like mine and, indeed, Melissa's) then semi-colons are a handy way of keeping the beat.

They're a stylistic choice, that is all, just like a penguin's hat .

I stand by my assessment, and I challenge you to find examples of good fiction prose that contradict me.

I didn't say semicolons should never be used. I said they should be used sparingly.

I looked up some of your stories. They bear out my opinion. Your story The Floating World Part 6 is 7 Lit pages -- over 25,000 words. The first page has only three semicolons. You use them more than many writers, but even in your case you don't use them that often. I think it's fair to say they should be used sparingly, but if you have many long sentences their use makes more sense.

You can meander all you like, but you don't need semicolons to do it (generally speaking).

People get all kinds of ideas about what you should and shouldn't do when you write, but the best guide is to look at how good writers actually do it. Good writers use semicolons sparingly in fiction.

 

[gordo12]

To me, I see this as a matter of style, not grammar. I'd love to read what others think. I am very open to being enlightened if I am in error.

.

I have the same problem and see it as style. Regardless of the rules.

"Having a delicate hand, there was a lightness and elegance to each of Ray's drawings."

"Ray, having a delicate hand displayed a lightness and elegance in each drawing."

I can't believe I'm saying this; I like these suggestions better than the colon or semi-colon.

 

[SimonDoom]

"Having a delicate hand, there was a lightness and elegance to each of Ray's drawings."

"Ray, having a delicate hand displayed a lightness and elegance in each drawing."

The problem with (1) is that "having a delicate hand" is a modifying phrase, but the word it modifies -- Ray -- isn't in the right place. To make this correct it would have to be something like:

Having a delicate hand, Ray drew with lightness and elegance.

The second sentence is OK but it needs a comma after "hand."

 

[Jada59]

I stand by my assessment, and I challenge you to find examples of good fiction prose that contradict me.

I didn't say semicolons should never be used. I said they should be used sparingly.

I looked up some of your stories. They bear out my opinion. Your story The Floating World Part 6 is 7 Lit pages -- over 25,000 words. The first page has only three semicolons. You use them more than many writers, but even in your case you don't use them that often. I think it's fair to say they should be used sparingly, but if you have many long sentences their use makes more sense.

You can meander all you like, but you don't need semicolons to do it (generally speaking).

People get all kinds of ideas about what you should and shouldn't do when you write, but the best guide is to look at how good writers actually do it. Good writers use semicolons sparingly in fiction.

My first novel was full of semi-colons. Why? Whatever version of Word that I had at the time, insisted that I put them in. I couldn't stand reading it. I had to go back through and make changes. I think I left one or two of them in there.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I looked up some of your stories. They bear out my opinion. Your story The Floating World Part 6 is 7 Lit pages -- over 25,000 words. It has all of three semicolons.

I found several stories of yours that use NO semicolons.

You can meander all you like, but you don't need semicolons to do it (generally speaking).

People get all kinds of ideas about what you should and shouldn't do when you write, but the best guide is to look at how good writers actually do it. Good writers use semicolons sparingly in fiction.

You know me better than I know myself - I'd have thought I'd use more semi-colons than three or none, to be honest. There you go .

 

[KeithD]

Could I get some feedback on this?

SimonDoom made the following comment on the story I submitted for the One Night event. I respect him as a writer and a critic, but I am confused about this particular point.

Yep, that example is not grammatical and, yep, it has become a trend in popular writing. Fingernails on blackboard.

 

[SimonDoom]

You know me better than I know myself - I'd have thought I'd use more semi-colons than three or none, to be honest. There you go .

OK, to be honest, I had to modify my post because I was incorrect. I looked again, and the three semicolons were on one page of your story. On some of the other pages you used more. So, yes, you use semicolons more than I do, or more than some authors do.

A fair exception to the general principle I stated holds when an author has many long sentences with multiple clauses or phrases. Your writing is more like that than mine. Semicolons sometimes are needed to indicate pauses that are more significant than those indicated by commas in the same sentence.

If I were your editor I'd probably replace some of the semicolons with periods, but at that point I agree it's mostly a matter of style.