A question for those more knowledgeable that myself...

[BiscuitHammer]

Getting the direct support of your Lit readers is great, if you can swing it. Having said that, tho, what's the point of using certain platforms? I'm this case, I'm referring to Patreon.

I joined it and looked into using it. The percentage they take aside, because everyone is gonna take something, I'm not sure this platform is terribly useful to me. They have a lot of restrictions, seemingly, with it comes to erotic material. Quite a few of my most popular works would be inadmissible because they're in the I/T category here on Lit.

So I guess I have questions about Patreon as a platform, because I have people asking how they can support me. Am I in particular just SOL because of my story-types, or is Patreon just covering its ass and doesn't enforce that stuff?

Anyone with direct experience on the subject, I'd love to hear from you. Yes, I know they are a form of competition for Lit.

And if not Patreon, does anyone have any alternatives to suggest?

Thank you in advance, and keep your stick on the ice!

- Biscuit Hammer

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

The tendency of almost every single marketing thought thunked by anyone anywhere in the world these days is to practice the wasteful and useless thing called 'crowding out.'

Patreon, like almost every other 'platform' that claims to enable monetizing of some endeavor - whatever it may be - confuses the inexperienced with the HUGE number and variety of participants that all appear to be thriving or enthusiastic.

We are living in the middle of changes in economic thinking and in the middle of substantial alterations of monetary flow channels - meaning, there are no straightforward obvious solutions and no one else really FULLY has the complete picture at their own fingertips.

Or at least not one which can readily be supplied to all people and all creative styles; that is, transposed from one claimed 'successful' process to someone else in order for them to adopt and have the same results occur.

The space is not 'drawn in' yet and the whole story ain't over yet not by a long shot.

Most of these early movers are frauds.

 

[ElizabethBean91]

I also started using Patreon, to a much lesser degree, but what you said, BiscuitHammer, about works being inadmissible due to the I(ncest)/T(aboo) category has me worried. My current works, which I've been posting there on occasion, are of this category. I wasn't aware there would be an issue.

I haven't had any luck, yet. Now, I'm beginning to wonder if Patreon is worth the trouble. If they don't allow this category, there are plenty more ideas I can implement. Personally, I prefer Literotica over anything, but I thought getting a little compensation would be nice, too. I'm very interested in what others have to say on this subject.

 

[Etaski]

I've had success using Patreon's platform, but I will say upfront I don't know how active the enforcement of blocking Incest erotica is, or what triggers that enforcement.

I was there to see the early rise in 2013-2014, watching what some of my favorite video-content creators were doing, and supporting them myself. I was a patron of twelve other creators for a year before I was a creator with patrons of my own.

Those creators were still offering content through their original channel, but were drawing on their other skills/resources to offer unique rewards to patrons for their direct support (credit as a producer/supporter, short extras, early releases, personalized artwork, special requests for the subject of future content, voting rights what to work on next, behind the scenes stuff, amusing flubs, and live interaction/video/voice calls).

I saw all this, that's what I contemplated, trying to convert a video-content format to a writing one. It's not easy, not all of it would work, but that's where I started and I came up with my own resources, and that's what I offered. It worked. How long will it last? No idea.

Best to see it as either a second job or a serious hobby. It takes real work if you go that way. If you're already getting a loud call from your readers who want to support you, you can try "Just show your appreciation!" and for a little while, they might, but eventually everyone finds themselves needing to reevaluate where their money is going and make changes.

Worth noting: I don't post the erotica to Patreon. That's not what I'm offering. I've tagged my page as "18+" because I put up sexy images on occasion and the source material is definitely 18+, but what I'm offering a close engagement with my fans, if they want it, artwork related to the theme they've chosen to support because they enjoy it, and special gifts and attention in addition to what I post at Literotica. I try to entertain them with regular updates, I send early releases directly to their email with a personal note attached, I solicit their feedback, answer questions, and provide the occasional polls to get an idea what they're thinking. They have the chance to get to know me better, and I've made some real friends along the way.

And I keep putting out consistent "core" content and following through on those rewards. Come Hell or high water.

It's a second job, entirely self-managed and self-motivated, requiring both marketing and planning, setting clear goals, and designing (and occasionally refreshing) different tiers of realistic rewards based on your particular fan base and what they are asking for. First step was to listen to what they wanted, and the second was to compromise with goals and offers that were attainable for me.

Patreon is not a "gimme" platform. What you get out of it depends on what you put into it. That's my experience.

 

[weftandwarp]

I think there is a lot of dross that is best discarded. Money is one. To make erotic stories pay is a very ambitious project most likely to cause tears than success. Some succeed but the majority don't. Success isn't necessarily about quality. Name one book of erotica other than "Shades of Gray" that has succeeded in the last ten years. (and note that the author submitted it to the market using a pseudonym.)

Why can't it be different? Why can't it be about happiness, causing smiles and laughter? Why can't we write about a better world where people aren't hurt and we can share it with others? Why can't we challenge the things that are wrong- the moralities that maim, arrogance that destroys, aggression that stultifies... There are so many things we can do that will contribute to a better world.

I would like to think that when we help to look after this world we will be looked after too. Rather than sell one's self cheaply, why not have an open heart and enjoy what we do?

Now, please tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[SimonDoom]

Name one book of erotica other than "Shades of Gray" that has succeeded in the last ten years. (and note that the author submitted it to the market using a pseudonym.)

Why can't it be different? Why can't it be about happiness, causing smiles and laughter? Why can't we write about a better world where people aren't hurt and we can share it with others? Why can't we challenge the things that are wrong- the moralities that maim, arrogance that destroys, aggression that stultifies... There are so many things we can do that will contribute to a better world.

I would like to think that when we help to look after this world we will be looked after too. Rather than sell one's self cheaply, why not have an open heart and enjoy what we do?

Now, please tell me where I'm wrong.

Because it would be dull. Strife and hardship make stories interesting and exciting. To follow this rule one would have to throw every tragedy ever written, and every crime story, and for that matter most novels and plays, in the trash heap.

I believe one can do one's bit to make a better world through writing, but it's a tall order, and often people just want to write to have fun in their own way, and that's OK.

On a separate question, concerning your query about other successful erotic novels -- does anyone know if there's a good central source for seeing the sales figures for novels in various genres?

 

[KeithD]

The base structure of a short story is dilemma/struggle/resolution. Without dilemma you've got pabulum.

 

[weftandwarp]

Because it would be dull. Strife and hardship make stories interesting and exciting. To follow this rule one would have to throw every tragedy ever written, and every crime story, and for that matter most novels and plays, in the trash heap.

I believe one can do one's bit to make a better world through writing, but it's a tall order, and often people just want to write to have fun in their own way, and that's OK.

On a separate question, concerning your query about other successful erotic novels -- does anyone know if there's a good central source for seeing the sales figures for novels in various genres?

OOOOOOO

There are a lot of strife and hardship stories in the bin too. I think there is more than strife and hardship that makes a good story. I would prefer to think challenges are more likely to be interesting and that is what I'm talking about, the response to strife and hardship.

 

[weftandwarp]

The base structure of a short story is dilemma/struggle/resolution. Without dilemma you've got pabulum.

OOOOOOOOOOO

Yes, I wasn't saying they should be absent. There are times though that I wish there was more, a lot more. For example, I read here and there's bugger all to cause a laugh. That's disappointing.

 

[KeithD]

I don't think erotica is conducive to humor--except outside of the sex act. I haven't had much luck with humor in Literotica stories.

 

[weftandwarp]

I don't think erotica is conducive to humor--except outside of the sex act. I haven't had much luck with humor in Literotica stories.

OOOOOOOO

Yes, it is difficult. Fair enough. Makes it an excellent challenge.

I have two that have humour, it will soon be three. One scored poorly and has disparaging comments. The one to come will be interesting because It's based around a funeral. Like you I find it difficult to consolidate the humour with the erotic but I enjoy the challenge. Most of my stories have some humour. It's good to be different.

And, though I don't use humor I'm sure It's more correct than humour because It's older.

Back to the thread topic, I think there is a lot more that is interesting than writing to order for money.

 

[KeithD]

I write for money, but not to order. The buyers, such as they are, find me in the varieties in which I write because that's what I want to write.

 

[weftandwarp]

I write for money, but not to order. The buyers, such as they are, find me in the varieties in which I write because that's what I want to write.

OOOOOOOOO

That's good, it implies integrity. I suspect most who write for money would be true to doing what they want because it would be difficult otherwise. I'm just a pleb who sets challenges for himself to see what happens. I enjoy that. My failures can be enormous but a success is exhilerating.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think there is a lot of dross that is best discarded. Money is one. To make erotic stories pay is a very ambitious project most likely to cause tears than success. Some succeed but the majority don't. Success isn't necessarily about quality. Name one book of erotica other than "Shades of Gray" that has succeeded in the last ten years. (and note that the author submitted it to the market using a pseudonym.)

This is mostly true even if you remove the word "erotic". Writing fiction as a career is not far off playing the lottery - a few people get very rich, most authors can't support themselves on what they get from writing.

It's frustratingly difficult to get sales data, but I found some discussion about translating Amazon ranking into sales rate.

As of this morning [poster's book] is:

#10,913 Paid in Kindle Store (See Top 100 Paid in Kindle Store)
#73 in Kindle Store > Kindle eBooks > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Occult
#84 in Books > Literature & Fiction > Genre Fiction > Horror > Occult

Okay, so what does that mean exactly.

Well � if you are listed at ranking #100,000+ you are probably selling less than ONE copy a day of your e-book.

If you are listed between 70,000 and 100,000 you are averaging ONE copy a day.

If you are listed around #42,500 you are averaging TWO copies a day.

If you are listed around #32,000 you are averaging THREE copies a day.

If you are listed around #25,000 you are average FIVE copies sold in a day.

If you are listed around #12,000 you are averaging TEN copies sold in a day.

If you are listed around #7500 you are averaging FIFTEEN copies sold in a day.

Looking at those numbers, the relationship is roughly: (sales per day) = 100,000/(Amazon rank). I don't know how accurately that extrapolates to books about #7500, but for lack of any better information let's go with that.

The current best seller in Amazon's Erotica category is Ramona Gray's "Undeniably His". I've never heard of it, but it's ranked at #179 from all books in the Kindle store.

If that rank/sales relationship holds, that translates to about five or six hundred sales per day. At 99c/sale, minus Amazon's royalties, the author is probably pocketing a couple of hundred bucks per day, minus anything she's spending on promotion/covers/editing/etc.

That's decent money, especially since she has several other books out that will also be earning, but it's not huge money. There would be several people on this forum who are making more money from their day jobs than Ms. Gray is making from that #1 erotica e-book, and with better benefits and job security. Most erotica authors will not be making anywhere near that much.

Of course, it depends what you count as "success". I don't know if Chuck Tingle is getting rich off his "Pounded In The Butt" series and other works, but he's more famous than I will ever be, and he's put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces.

 

[KeithD]

Writing is a fun thing to do once you've retired with a good annuity, though--even if you make a little money from it.

 

[weftandwarp]

This is mostly true even if you remove the word "erotic". Writing fiction as a career is not far off playing the lottery - a few people get very rich, most authors can't support themselves on what they get from writing.

It's frustratingly difficult to get sales data, but I found some discussion about translating Amazon ranking into sales rate.



Looking at those numbers, the relationship is roughly: (sales per day) = 100,000/(Amazon rank). I don't know how accurately that extrapolates to books about #7500, but for lack of any better information let's go with that.

The current best seller in Amazon's Erotica category is Ramona Gray's "Undeniably His". I've never heard of it, but it's ranked at #179 from all books in the Kindle store.

If that rank/sales relationship holds, that translates to about five or six hundred sales per day. At 99c/sale, minus Amazon's royalties, the author is probably pocketing a couple of hundred bucks per day, minus anything she's spending on promotion/covers/editing/etc.

That's decent money, especially since she has several other books out that will also be earning, but it's not huge money. There would be several people on this forum who are making more money from their day jobs than Ms. Gray is making from that #1 erotica e-book, and with better benefits and job security. Most erotica authors will not be making anywhere near that much.

Of course, it depends what you count as "success". I don't know if Chuck Tingle is getting rich off his "Pounded In The Butt" series and other works, but he's more famous than I will ever be, and he's put a lot of smiles on a lot of faces.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You are just incredible with how much information you have.. You know there is a job waiting for you on team Dutton. You will be charged with figuring when he should mount his next challenge and what to do to prepare for it with respect to section 44. Owns child care centres indeed, he can't figure out what he's doing so gets advice from Tony and wants to be PM. Is that post mortem?
Wait a minute. Why don't you put your hand up and run yourself? Really!

 

[Bramblethorn]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You are just incredible with how much information you have.. You know there is a job waiting for you on team Dutton. You will be charged with figuring when he should mount his next challenge and what to do to prepare for it with respect to section 44. Owns child care centres indeed, he can't figure out what he's doing so gets advice from Tony and wants to be PM. Is that post mortem?
Wait a minute. Why don't you put your hand up and run yourself? Really!

Heh. I suspect I would not be a good cultural fit on Team Dutton.

 

[weftandwarp]

Heh. I suspect I would not be a good cultural fit on Team Dutton.

Ooooo


Does that mean you're putting your hand up? So good. You have my vote.

 

[Specula]

I also started using Patreon, to a much lesser degree, but what you said, BiscuitHammer, about works being inadmissible due to the I(ncest)/T(aboo) category has me worried. My current works, which I've been posting there on occasion, are of this category. I wasn't aware there would be an issue.

I haven't had any luck, yet. Now, I'm beginning to wonder if Patreon is worth the trouble. If they don't allow this category, there are plenty more ideas I can implement. Personally, I prefer Literotica over anything, but I thought getting a little compensation would be nice, too. I'm very interested in what others have to say on this subject.

Surely the incest issue, when between consenting adults, is no issue at all. Aren't we all responsible adults? The issue seems to me more about potential child abuse than about who's daddy etc. So the debate might be misrepresented?

 

[eroticstoryspinner]

I am not a big fan of Patron. Once I get enough backlist, for lack of a better word, on LIT I have been thinking about posting some of them on Amazon. As others have said, never going to get rich, but a few dollars here and a few dollars there, might cover a bill or two. In any case, its more than I would have made not doing anything.

 

[8letters]

Getting the direct support of your Lit readers is great, if you can swing it. Having said that, tho, what's the point of using certain platforms? I'm this case, I'm referring to Patreon.

I joined it and looked into using it. The percentage they take aside, because everyone is gonna take something, I'm not sure this platform is terribly useful to me. They have a lot of restrictions, seemingly, with it comes to erotic material. Quite a few of my most popular works would be inadmissible because they're in the I/T category here on Lit.

So I guess I have questions about Patreon as a platform, because I have people asking how they can support me. Am I in particular just SOL because of my story-types, or is Patreon just covering its ass and doesn't enforce that stuff?

KindOfHere left LitE to go to Patreon. Made some good money for a while, but eventually Patreon told him to remove his stories because he was publishing I/T stuff.

If I was going to use Patreon, I'd continue publishing my stories on LitE as I do. One thing I do is put at the end of my stories a link to a thread in Story Feedback that is the extended author's notes for the story. The one change I'd make is add a link in my signature to my Patreon account. Then when readers click on the link to see the extended author's notes, they'd see the link to my Patreon account.

As for my Patreon account, I'd have things like "Name a character" and "Make a wish list of things in my next story and I'll try to incorporate as many of them as possible". But what you really want is to provide a channel for your LitE readers to send you money.

Something else to consider would be getting active on Twitter and using that to drive traffic to your LitE stories and your Patreon account. There are some LitE authors who have Twitter accounts. You could contact them for advice.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Surely the incest issue, when between consenting adults, is no issue at all. Aren't we all responsible adults? The issue seems to me more about potential child abuse than about who's daddy etc. So the debate might be misrepresented?

No, Patreon's policy prohibits incest erotica regardless of age.

 

[ElizabethBean91]

I never thought this board would be revived, but I'm glad is has because you've given me some good advice to consider.

On the incest erotica (18+) thing and Patreon, Bramblethorn is absolutely correct in that they strictly forbid such material. I do write much more than the lesbian incest work you'll find here on Lit, but I post it here because I do have these wild ideas and no other outlet to display them; Amazon strictly forbids it as well.

Just a quick thing on forbidding incest angles on major platforms. To me, it should be between the author and the reader to determine, within reason, what is deemed acceptable and unacceptable. Put simply, and I'm sure many of you would agree, if the reader holds no interest in the subject they could simply choose not to read/purchase/ or otherwise support the material. It seems the erotic taboo has great audience, but major retailers find it unreasonable to allow the subject to be viewed. But, I digress.

I like the ideas you've mentioned, 8Letters. I've had a Twitter account for years, and at one time I was very active on it, but I've long since lost interest in the platform. To put it simply, I suck at marketing. Honestly, I am awful at connecting to people. I've been writing a lot and trying to build up a backlog of work with the same intentions that eroticstoryspinner mentioned; I am aiming for a great deal of success though, probably unrealistic but we all need goals.

I love Literotica, this is such an amazing platform for some pretty damn good writers I might add. And I had entertained the Patreon idea in the past, but I set myself up for failure by promising the most impossible goals; I don't even remember what they were. About a week in, or less than a week, I shut it down before anyone could sign up. I have determined a better set of sign-up rewards and again I love 8Letters' ideas about having signees name a character (or they could even be a character, that would be cool) or coming up with their own idea they'd like to see written. And of course I'll be doing a lot more for Lit as well, everything else is basically just an off-shoot.

I guess ultimately I would just love to be able to write for a living, but I'm sure a lot of people would, and I feel Patreon and Amazon are two outlets that might allow me to do that. At worst, I'll just keep working toward my nursing degree and get into the medical field; basically all of my friends did that after high school. Still, writing just calls to me. You know what I mean? Could I write and be a nurse? Sure. But, it would take me much longer to get out whatever I want to get out. While I'm in college, I have an opportunity to write in the morning, go to class in the afternoon, and do homework at night; it's worked out beautifully, I have about four hours a day to write.

I'm just going to apologize right off the bat. I'm sorry about the long message for anyone who gets through the whole thing (see, I practically wrote you a book right there). I just have so much on my mind as I'm just about eight months from graduating. And thank you all again.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

No, Patreon's policy prohibits incest erotica regardless of age.

You beat me to it.

I’m writing an I/T novel, and publish it to Lit because, after months of investigation, I frustratedly accepted that I/T erotica has very few paid publishing avenues and the ones that exist seem skint.

Anyways, the policy is very clear. If you’re writing, say, the next great American novel and your plot/subplot/character development/backstory/etc has some elements of non-erotic incest, the “Trust & Safety” team will review and consider. If you’re writing I/T erotica, you’re SOL. Here’s the community guideline terms.

Offensive and graphic creations:

We understand that artists sometimes have to push boundaries to create thought provoking art so we don't review offensive and graphic creations with strict black and white guidelines, instead we review them in the context of the whole creator page.

However, we have zero tolerance when it comes to the glorification of sexual violence which includes bestiality, rape, and child exploitation (i.e., sexualized depiction of minors). This is true for illustrated, animated, or any other type of creations. Patreon reserves the right to review and remove accounts that may violate this guideline.

We also do not allow other fringe sexual fetish creations, such as incest, necrophilia, or fetish creations that is hard to distinguish from non-consensual sex.

We understand that some topics on this list such as incest or rape are a little bit more complicated because these situations are, unfortunately, part of real life. As a result, when reviewing these types of creations, the Trust and Safety team will take into consideration context including personal, historical or educational narrative. For example, survivor stories or fiction such as Game of Thrones or Lolita are allowed on Patreon.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I think there is a lot of dross that is best discarded. Money is one. To make erotic stories pay is a very ambitious project most likely to cause tears than success. Some succeed but the majority don't. Success isn't necessarily about quality. Name one book of erotica other than "Shades of Gray" that has succeeded in the last ten years. (and note that the author submitted it to the market using a pseudonym.)

Why can't it be different? Why can't it be about happiness, causing smiles and laughter? Why can't we write about a better world where people aren't hurt and we can share it with others? Why can't we challenge the things that are wrong- the moralities that maim, arrogance that destroys, aggression that stultifies... There are so many things we can do that will contribute to a better world.

I would like to think that when we help to look after this world we will be looked after too. Rather than sell one's self cheaply, why not have an open heart and enjoy what we do?

Now, please tell me where I'm wrong.

No, you are not wrong.