A question about Discipline

[RJMasters]

It strikes me odd, that as you break up the acronym BDSM
B/D D/S and S/M...

You get kinda of an opposite top/bottom pairng when you see D/S and S/M, but I don't see the same match up in B/D.

Maybe it just the way my mind trys to think logically and see patterns in things, I dunno...

I get the "B" side of of B/D... it stands for bondage and would lead me to believe that if there was top/bottom pairing, Bondage would be the bottom side of the pairing.

So, I am asking out of curiousity about Discipline. Is this associated with Tops or with Bottoms? After looking through the library, there wasn't much that really spoke directly about Discipline specifically enough for me to draw any conclusions from.

Maybe I am looking for something past the obvious and B/D are both just bottom, but I do not like to make assumptions, and I am here to learn.

So any words of explanation about Discipline and how it relates to a top or bottom would be most appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration to further my knowledge and understanding.

 

[Belladonna]

Dicipline

For me, i look at Bondage & Discipline as having a meaning for both top & bottom. I could elaborate...

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Dicipline

I could elaborate...

Grinz...yeah..I would like that. Please do.

 

[Belladonna]

Re: Re: Dicipline

Originally posted by RJMasters
Grinz...yeah..I would like that. Please do.

When I think of Discipline, it strikes thoughts in me of being spanked, punished, scolded, etc and gives me a feeling of subserviance. Personally, anyway. But Would a Top/Dom think the same way? (can't speak for one, I'm not) I jsut imagine that the word in of itself could have strong traits for a top or bottom.
Am I making sense?

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Re: Dicipline

When I think of Discipline, it strikes thoughts in me of being spanked, punished, scolded, etc and gives me a feeling of subserviance. Personally, anyway. But Would a Top/Dom think the same way? (can't speak for one, I'm not) I jsut imagine that the word in of itself could have strong traits for a top or bottom.
Am I making sense?

Well you are making sense though I think you missed the point of my question. I would also say that our definition of Discipline is a bit different, which is ok as every one has their own opinion of things.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my first post as to what I am asking concerning Discipline.

I have a very good working knowledge of what this word is as far as a definition goes. What I am looking for is if Dicipline, being the pairing match bondage in the acroynm of BDSM, refers to a Top.

D/S = Dominant/Submissive
S/M = Sadist/Masochist

B/D = Bondage/Discipline

In BDSM I associate Submissive, Masochist and Bondage as more Bottoms, where as Dominant and Sadist I associate as Tops.

But Discipline seems to just be out there all on it own and doesn't seem to pair equally as the other two acroynms.

Maybe, its because a Dominant, Sadist, Submissive and Masochist are what people are, and Bondage and Discipline are more what people do.

Takes piece of puzzle, though it doesn't fit perfectly...and POUNDS! it into place....smiles...hmmm

Thinks I wait for others to weight in on the subject...

Maybe what I am asking is if Discpiline in B/D really translates to "Discipliner" which would make the equal pairing in my way of thinking.

*goes to get some asprin. I think I really hurt myself this time lol.

 

[sunfox]

This is possibly not exactly on topic.. but I've never thought of Sadists and Masochists as being Top/Bottom respectively.

It's mostly relation to pain.. giver and taker.. but just because someone desires pain doesn't make them a bottom, in my estimation, and vice versa. My PYL likes to have me bite him hard, bruise him.. likes the way my nails cut into his skin.. but he is anything but a bottom. And I can enjoy very much being cruel or causing pain, and I am anything but a top.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

<snip>You get kinda of an opposite top/bottom pairng when you see D/S and S/M, but I don't see the same match up in B/D.
<snip>
Maybe I am looking for something past the obvious and B/D are both just bottom, but I do not like to make assumptions, and I am here to learn.

So any words of explanation about Discipline and how it relates to a top or bottom would be most appreciated.

While I can't and won't lay any claim to "expert knowledge," my personal feeling about each of these terms is that they are what the couple does, rather than what they are. That also applies to D/s and S/M, which I am more familiar seeing as "Dominance/submission" rather than "Dominant/submissive," and "Sadism/Masochism" rather than "Sadist/Masochist." "Top" and "bottom" have other meanings to me - primarily used for those who "scene" rather than living lifestyle (for whatever reasons of their own, and this is not in any way a putdown of those persons!), except in the case of a particular phrase: "topping from the bottom," which is another subject entirely.

In any event, IMO, they are only labels, which have been debated at length in any number of threads here, though they resurface periodically. Those labels, to me, are merely broad ranges of behavior that don't define people, but simply give them an opportunity to give a quick, easy, general idea of their activities/preferences to anyone who may be interested in knowing.

For me - I think I've said it before, somewhere - if I were required to label myself, it would be something along the line of "Sensual, Sadistic Master who likes facefucking, cuddling, buttfucking, giving and receiving massage, welts/bruises, and watching his slave's eyes while she cums." Of course, various aspects of that will change slightly from day to day, depending on my mood.

But then, that's just me. . . . . . . . . . . . . . YMMV.

 

[Wednesday'sRose]

I agree with how you seen the acronym Sir_W. I had also always seen it as being sets of action comparisons (i.e. submission instead of submissive); which tends to negate the issue of a word that doesn't fit the pattern.

Of course, that could just be my OCD kicking in to find a way around a problem that would drive me crazy.

 

[RJMasters]

Ty for your opinion on S&M. I am sure there is room for acceptance on both of our view points. Since it is well practiced on this forum in using PLY/ply, I tend to think that others also share an accepted view of top and bottom when it comes to S/M. Though individuals may vary.

Unless your suggesting that my whole fishing expedition here is based on a wrong assumption, which makes my question an invalid one.

Since you do not subscribe to a top or bottom being applied to S/M, then am I correct in that you also do not associate top or bottom with B/D?

If that is the case, then I will mark you down as a "No" you do not see "D" as being associated with a top or bottom.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: A question about Discipline

While I can't and won't lay any claim to "expert knowledge," my personal feeling about each of these terms is that they are what the couple does, rather than what they are. That also applies to D/s and S/M, which I am more familiar seeing as "Dominance/submission" rather than "Dominant/submissive," and "Sadism/Masochism" rather than "Sadist/Masochist." "Top" and "bottom" have other meanings to me - primarily used for those who "scene" rather than living lifestyle (for whatever reasons of their own, and this is not in any way a putdown of those persons!), except in the case of a particular phrase: "topping from the bottom," which is another subject entirely.

In any event, IMO, they are only labels, which have been debated at length in any number of threads here, though they resurface periodically. Those labels, to me, are merely broad ranges of behavior that don't define people, but simply give them an opportunity to give a quick, easy, general idea of their activities/preferences to anyone who may be interested in knowing.

For me - I think I've said it before, somewhere - if I were required to label myself, it would be something along the line of "Sensual, Sadistic Master who likes facefucking, cuddling, buttfucking, giving and receiving massage, welts/bruises, and watching his slave's eyes while she cums." Of course, various aspects of that will change slightly from day to day, depending on my mood.

But then, that's just me. . . . . . . . . . . . . . YMMV.

Ty. Some food to chew on for my hunger.

So you would say basically I'm fishing for something that isn't there.

Thanks.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

It strikes me odd, that as you break up the acronym BDSM
B/D D/S and S/M...

You get kinda of an opposite top/bottom pairng when you see D/S and S/M, but I don't see the same match up in B/D.

Maybe it just the way my mind trys to think logically and see patterns in things, I dunno...

So, I am asking out of curiousity about Discipline.

Ok ...

Let's see if this works for you.

Bondage gets you your "bottom" aspect easily.

Discipline includes both top and bottom. You might have to set aside the bottom aspect, from Latin disciplina learning and discipulus pupil, and concentrate on disciplina teaching.

i'm not a fan of selective logic comparisons, but bondage: servitude or subjugation to a controlling person, and discipline: (as a verb) 3 a : to bring under control, and (as a noun) 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order, might just get you your match.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Ok ...

Let's see if this works for you.

Bondage gets you your "bottom" aspect easily.

Discipline includes both top and bottom. You might have to set aside the bottom aspect, from Latin disciplina learning and discipulus pupil, and concentrate on disciplina teaching.

i'm not a fan of selective logic comparisons, but bondage: servitude or subjugation to a controlling person, and discipline: (as a verb) 3 a : to bring under control, and (as a noun) 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order, might just get you your match.

I have to agree with AA. I have never in my mind seen the discipline part of things as any sort of physical pain.... or disciplining a sumbissive as you would a child with a smack on the ass or hand. I am a grown woman, if by now i am not "self disciplined" enough to not need to be spanked because im a bad girl, then i have issues i would think need to be resolved. I am the type of submissive that wants to be good and do as she is asked all the time, that may prove boring for the type of dominant that wants to beat his girl because she misbehaved. I am also a masochist who loves pain in any form. I dont often go out of my way to go against what my Dominant expects of me but if i did and i was disciplined with a smack or the crop...dontcha think i would be wanting to be a bad girl all the time to feel more pain? Discipline to me is the ability to control that another person has...a word, a touch, a look, to remind me is all i would need from someone like that. It is a constant not an "at the moment" thing.


ugh typos, not enough coffee...hope this makes sense

 

[sunfox]

Ty for your opinion on S&M. I am sure there is room for acceptance on both of our view points. Since it is well practiced on this forum in using PLY/ply, I tend to think that others also share an accepted view of top and bottom when it comes to S/M. Though individuals may vary.

Unless your suggesting that my whole fishing expedition here is based on a wrong assumption, which makes my question an invalid one.

Since you do not subscribe to a top or bottom being applied to S/M, then am I correct in that you also do not associate top or bottom with B/D?

If that is the case, then I will mark you down as a "No" you do not see "D" as being associated with a top or bottom.

I'm gonna guess this was to me.

I don't think your question is invalid.. I don't really feel any attempt to attain knowledge is invalid. Nor do I think you shouldn't have your own point of view. But I don't think that BDSM will fit into anyone's square boxes.. it's just a round peg that way.

I also rather agree with Sir_Winston54, in that I'm not much a one for top/bottom as labels... that has always seemed more of a nomenclature for 'scenes' as opposed to lifestyle. Though again.. this is my opinion.

Yes, I'd say you can consider me a "No"... I don't see Discipline as being associated with a top or bottom, or a Dominant or submissive. My feeling is that a Dominant requires personal discipline to serve as the guiding force in a D/s relationship, and a submissive requires personal discipline in order to serve in a way that pleases her Dominant's desires and will.

I just don't see the Discipline definition as being, like KC said, all about the 'you've been a naughty girl, time for your flogging' thing. I think discipline can be defined as mental discipline, to be a contributing and healthy part of the relationship.

Now where's that coffee? *yawns* I'm still foggy!

 

[A Desert Rose]

I'm gonna guess this was to me.

I don't think your question is invalid.. I don't really feel any attempt to attain knowledge is invalid. Nor do I think you shouldn't have your own point of view. But I don't think that BDSM will fit into anyone's square boxes.. it's just a round peg that way.

I also rather agree with Sir_Winston54, in that I'm not much a one for top/bottom as labels... that has always seemed more of a nomenclature for 'scenes' as opposed to lifestyle. Though again.. this is my opinion.

Yes, I'd say you can consider me a "No"... I don't see Discipline as being associated with a top or bottom, or a Dominant or submissive. My feeling is that a Dominant requires personal discipline to serve as the guiding force in a D/s relationship, and a submissive requires personal discipline in order to serve in a way that pleases her Dominant's desires and will.

I just don't see the Discipline definition as being, like KC said, all about the 'you've been a naughty girl, time for your flogging' thing. I think discipline can be defined as mental discipline, to be a contributing and healthy part of the relationship.

Now where's that coffee? *yawns* I'm still foggy!

It can also be part of the education of a submissive, which is how I define it. It does not always mean some sort of punishment. In fact in my mind, it does not.

And as a form of education and training of a submissive, it involves both parties.

 

[Kajira Callista]

*waves to ADR*

 

[A Desert Rose]

*waves to ADR*

and blows you back a

 

[RJMasters]

It can also be part of the education of a submissive, which is how I define it. It does not always mean some sort of punishment. In fact in my mind, it does not.

And as a form of education and training of a submissive, it involves both parties.

Now this is how I see it as well. Discipline is not punishment,(see discipline ~vs~ punishment in the library). It is more about raising up a submissive and training them. To teach educate, and transfer them from a state of being out of control, to that of a well disciplined submissive.

I like what AA had to say:

bondage: servitude or subjugation to a controlling person discipline: (as a verb) 3 a : to bring under control, and (as a noun) 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order

See Though I can agree with Winston and what he said and where he is coming from, I Choose not to accept that as the only means of viewing things. To some extent, what you say Winston appears to be very correct, and yet I cannot seperate the person from the label. As you said, if you had to label yourself, you would be a Dominant, Sadist...who does XXX...but is seems that there is a huge rash of label phobia going around. Some times it cracks me up that people fight so hard to be seen as a true submissive or dominant, only to turn around and hold up a finger cross, saying don't label me, don't label me.

The point I am making is that I cannot seperate the person from the label, as they are the same thing. When I speak of Dominance and attribute that to a person, I am speaking of a Dominant. If I am speaking about Sadism, and attributing that behavior to a person I am speaking of a Sadist. It is the same for Submission-submissive and masochism-masochist. So wheather you choose to personify them or not, you are still left with 3 pairings.

As I see it there are two ways in which to look at it so far.

1st way is that B/D are things that you do so there is not perspective top or bottom associated to either one. There is a top and bottom to each one.

2nd way is to see it is the personifcation of Discipline to be attributed to the Top as the Discipliner or the one who brings another into control and teaches and trains. And Bondage would then be personified as the person who is brought under control.

At this point and time, I am ok with either way, though I tend to lean toward 2nd way of seeing things.

 

[RJMasters]

I am the type of submissive that wants to be good and do as she is asked all the time, that may prove boring for the type of dominant that wants to beat his girl because she misbehaved. I am also a masochist who loves pain in any form. I dont often go out of my way to go against what my Dominant expects of me but if i did and i was disciplined with a smack or the crop...dontcha think i would be wanting to be a bad girl all the time to feel more pain? Discipline to me is the ability to control that another person has...a word, a touch, a look, to remind me is all i would need from someone like that. It is a constant not an "at the moment" thing.
ugh typos, not enough coffee...hope this makes sense

Yes we are speaking of bondage are we not...bondage of the heart & mind to the one who with a look can correct behavior.

I cannot stand the "I been a bad girl, so I deserve a spanking".

I would much prefer..."Master, I have done all that you asked me to, may I please have a spanking as I am so much in need to feel your hand on me today?"

Discipline is about the love, time, blood, sweat and tears put into one to shape them, teach them, challenge them to grow. Always requiring one to lead and grow themselves.

[Edit added]
You know after I re-read this post I seemed well to not be complete and a bit onesided. I used "them" alot, and the truth is both learn from each other. However, the responsibility is on the Dominant to lead.

Try this on for size, I enjoy listening to the piano played, I don't know how to play the piano, but that doen't stop me from getting a teacher to teach my submissive to play. And not just to know how to play, but be well disciplined in the art of playing the piano. I want to teach her to harness new skills that she can really take pride in herself... knowing she not only knows how to play the piano, but she is really good at playing the piano and brings pleasure to others by her skill. [/edit added]





Discipline is not so much about one isolated punishment to the next, as it is a breathing, living, growing, training, learning relationship. When someone says, "that is a well discipline submissive", they are giving a compliment to both the submissive and the Discipliner.

In my opinion, a healthy submissive is one who doesn't find the need to play the silly games to manipulate atttention. Dom/mes would do well to note the difference.

 

[RJMasters]

Right on target

Ok ...

Let's see if this works for you.

Bondage gets you your "bottom" aspect easily.

Discipline includes both top and bottom. You might have to set aside the bottom aspect, from Latin disciplina learning and discipulus pupil, and concentrate on disciplina teaching.

i'm not a fan of selective logic comparisons, but bondage: servitude or subjugation to a controlling person, and discipline: (as a verb) 3 a : to bring under control, and (as a noun) 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order, might just get you your match.

Thanks AA, this was kinda where my thoughts were "gellin"

 

[s'lara]

i see this very simply. The application of discipline (how and to what degree) is subject to the dynamic of the relationship in which it would exist.

Disciplining another is the act of enforcing will as a means to correct behavior that is unwanted. In a Top/bottom situation wherein the parties exchange those roles freely, either person may exact discipline on the other, especially if that is the arrangement they have.

In a D/s situation, where the parties involved have fully realized roles of Dominant and submissive, and those roles are not interchangeable, the discipline is meted out by the Dominant and never by submissive.

In vanilla Friday night spank fest, either party may choose to assume the role of misbehaved [insert label here] and the entire scene culminates with some type of discipline. The discipline in this scenario may be administered entirely under the umbrella of a sexual romp and may not extend outside of the bedroom.

In terms of Discipline in relation to the acronym, much of the imagery we see or read that is associated with the letters are depictions of spankings, canings, whippings and general punishment scenarios. That imagery is also commonly found with those in bound positions. Tie me up and make me pay for being a "bad girl." Lots of people play out that scenario to their satisfaction and i say have at it.

However, there are those who prefer not to temporarily play out that scene in the sexual sense. For those who believe discipline is necessary, they incorporate this tool into their "handling the sub" arsenal. As such, discipline is used as mechanism for obtaining desired behavior. For those that do not subscribe to discipline, it is not a part of their activities nor is it necessary in how they handle their submissive. Those of this kind expect obedience without fail and if the submissive is unable to comply, the other side of the door is now their best friend.

i won't comment on the merits of whether discipline should or should not be used to deal with submissives -- that is a whole other topic and not what RJ asked initially. Still, i do like how this discussion has evolved. That's always cool.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: A question about Discipline

Ty. Some food to chew on for my hunger.

So you would say basically I'm fishing for something that isn't there.

Thanks.

Perhaps not "Not there".

Hmm My best suggestion would be to grab a comfortable chair. Put on some music.
Find yourself a nice brandy.
And relax.

WHile relaxing, try this one on.

Try seeing it all less specificly...And more as a series of inter-relations.
Hmm Sort of a Yin/Yang kind of thing.
It's easier if you think not of the acts themselves but the people involved.
Master/slave, Dom/me/sub. Perfect opposits that attract perfectly.
Does one aspect relate more to one than the other? Try, "Can one aspect exist without both?"

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A question about Discipline

Perhaps not "Not there".

Hmm My best suggestion would be to grab a comfortable chair. Put on some music.
Find yourself a nice brandy.
And relax.

WHile relaxing, try this one on.

Try seeing it all less specificly...And more as a series of inter-relations.
Hmm Sort of a Yin/Yang kind of thing.
It's easier if you think not of the acts themselves but the people involved.
Master/slave, Dom/me/sub. Perfect opposits that attract perfectly.
Does one aspect relate more to one than the other? Try, "Can one aspect exist without both?"

Yes, I think one can exist without the other, though there may be imbalance.

The thing which captures my mind in this discussion is about bondage. The person who has a need or just a desire for it. The question I ask myself is why a person has a need or enjoys to be bound and restrainted.(other than running around the room in an uncontrolled manner while cane strikes are trying to be applied)

I think the answer to that question is what leads me to think of the "Discipliner". The one who is the binder, the one who brings under their control another.

Often we think solely in terms of sexuality and scene, and sense this is a BDSM forum, I think there is good reason for that. We talk about things that in a sense are enslaving, being out of control and being place under the control of another person.

In a non-sexual way, there are many things that are enslaving in life. Money for one. Drugs or alchohol is another. Fears can be enslaving. In each of these I see the capacity for one to be "out of control" or maybe controlled by money-controlled by drugs-controlled by fear...etc....

Real love and caring for a person who is out of control, would help them to become "In Control" or "Controlled". This would require Tough love as well as a strong hand to help calm and free a person from being controlled.

It is not enough to bind one's behavior to prevent it, I feel it is important to teach, train and equip a person to overcome those things which have enslaved them. I would much prefer my submissive to be enslaved to me, that to something else.

Hence...because I am dominant, I should have the inner strength to stand against such things and help cut a path through.

I often see things that happen on a physical sense, are really just mirroring those things which are happening in the heart and mind of another.

I have noted that many who speak about being bound or restrained, claim it gives them a sense of helplessness and giving up control to the one who is restraining them. They continue to share that this brings a sense of safety.

Though I have not had the pleasure yet to place another into bondage physically, I know that with every knot I would tie, and every restraint I snap tight, would be like an intimate kiss...as one by one control is yielded till total control and trust is achieved.

Relaxing and a nice brandy sound like a good idea as I let this simmer some more in my thoughts.

I am thankful for everyone who has contributed so far.

 

[sunfox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A question about Discipline

(other than running around the room in an uncontrolled manner while cane strikes are trying to be applied)

[hijack]

Okay, that was just a hilarious mental image.

[/hijack]

 

[RJMasters]

Well I think I am going to settle on as a general rule.

Top = Dominant, Sadist, Discipline
Bottom = Submissive, Masochist, Bondage

Individuals may vary, so please don't be offended by my opinion.

I think I am going to assign Discipliner as the "type" of person who would be associated to Discipiline. I see this as a teacher, mentor, Discipliner. They are a master of control and use of bondage, not only the physical knots and restraints, but they also know how to bind the mind and heart.

I will write more when I have time...

Ty all

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Whatever floats your boat

Well I think I am going to settle on as a general rule.

Pick your label works for me.