A question about bisexuality and lesbianism

[Sassy Grrl]

Hi Everyone!

I haven't been around for a while and am not even sure that any one here will remember me. I have a question for the bisexual and lesbian ladies, and really any one who might be able to give me perspective.

I am an openly bisexual woman in the midwest. I date a few men (though it's been a long time). I date mostly women. I don't really get serious about anyone, but I care for people deeply and try hard to never mistreat any of my partners.

Recently I met a wonderful woman who has me quite smitten. She's a lesbian, usually I date other bisexual women. We'v been flirting and teasing and playing and finally about a week ago she kissed me. And kissed me. And then she kissed me some more.

After our date was over, she drove me back to my car and we had a brief but important heart to heart during which she made two statements that have me just perplexed. The first thing she said is that lesbians aren't usually willing to sleep with bi women for hygene issues. "Hygene." That was her word.

Because there's been a cock in there at some point? That makes bi women unclean?

OK, next thing she said was that she was glad I was only looking for something casual because she could never commit to a me. I asked why that was and she said, "Cause you sleep with men." She went on to elaborate that if I like sex with men there was no way I could ever be happy with a lesbian for long. When I tried to explain a couple of things, I realized I sounded like I was trying to talk her into something. Blech.

Now I know that it's true that lesbians often aren't interested in bi women. But is this really the reason why? Bi women, what have you heard/experienced? Lesbians, does this statement represent any of your viewpoints?

Help me gain perspective, please!

 

[logophile]

I don't have any answers for you, Sassy, but I'm interested in hearing what others have to say.

 

[Sassy Grrl]

Thanks LogoPhile. Me too.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Hi Everyone!

I haven't been around for a while and am not even sure that any one here will remember me. I have a question for the bisexual and lesbian ladies, and really any one who might be able to give me perspective.

I am an openly bisexual woman in the midwest. I date a few men (though it's been a long time). I date mostly women. I don't really get serious about anyone, but I care for people deeply and try hard to never mistreat any of my partners.

Recently I met a wonderful woman who has me quite smitten. She's a lesbian, usually I date other bisexual women. We'v been flirting and teasing and playing and finally about a week ago she kissed me. And kissed me. And then she kissed me some more.

After our date was over, she drove me back to my car and we had a brief but important heart to heart during which she made two statements that have me just perplexed. The first thing she said is that lesbians aren't usually willing to sleep with bi women for hygene issues. "Hygene." That was her word.

Because there's been a cock in there at some point? That makes bi women unclean?

OK, next thing she said was that she was glad I was only looking for something casual because she could never commit to a me. I asked why that was and she said, "Cause you sleep with men." She went on to elaborate that if I like sex with men there was no way I could ever be happy with a lesbian for long. When I tried to explain a couple of things, I realized I sounded like I was trying to talk her into something. Blech.

Now I know that it's true that lesbians often aren't interested in bi women. But is this really the reason why? Bi women, what have you heard/experienced? Lesbians, does this statement represent any of your viewpoints?

Help me gain perspective, please!

Hygene could simply be a PC way of saying a fear of STDs. You can transmit them between lesbians of course, but in general, the incidence of them among lesbians is smaller.

As to the second, yes, it is a consideration.

In either case, it could have been put more delicately or tactfully. But there is a bottom line to it that makes a lot of sense. If I am exclusively lesbian and I give myheart to a woman who is bi, what happens when a man catches her interest? How do i compete? Even if I am perfectly confident in my ability to please her, I can't do it in the same way a guy does. I also can't offer a lot a man can in the way of social respectablity and ease.

Basically, if I meet a woman and fall in love, I would like to think keeping her and making it last is a matter of trating her the best way I can. Not rolling the dice on her never again feeling the need for a man's caress, something I cannot give, no matter how much I love her or would want to.

Being gay is tough. Being bi is sometimes even tougher. In this case, you have a desire for something your lesbian lover knows she can never give you. It's a recipe for getting her feelings stomped all to hell if Mr. right waltzes into your life. Made even more scary by the sure knowledge no matter how loving, tender or satisfying her lovemaking is, she can't compete with a guy if you are in the mood for a guy.

Your situation by the way, is far from uncommon, so don't feel all alone.

 

[Sassy Grrl]

Thanks for your input Colleen. I understand what you're saying and really appreciate you taking the time to say it.

What I've tried to explain to her is that for me, gender isn't an issue. I don't crave general cock or pussy. I crave my partner, who ever it is. I spent years in a monogamous hetro relationship and while I still fantasized about women from time to time, I never considered going and getting one. By the same token I have had long term relationships with women (more than with men) and never felt the desire to stray. Monogamy is mongamy. That's why I don't commit right now. The promise is too important to make lightly.

I will say that her comments made me feel like some sort of second class citizen. Inferior to her because she can only love women while I can love anyone. Gender doesn't matter, nor does age, race, relgion, etc. My sig line says "Love All Ways" for a reason!

Anyway, this is what I was trying to explain to her last night when I realized how I sounded.

I'm supposed to see her again late next week. I'm not sure that I want to.

 

[Celtic Princess]

If you're not looking for a serious relationship, I'm not sure it matters. Other than from a moral standpoint.



I enjoy sex with both genders but find myself more emotionally attracted to men. I've been made to feel "less than" because I enjoy both men and women by those who prefer only one gender. I try not to take it personally- it's their own insecurities showing.


As for the "hygene" part of her statement- that's as ignorant as saying gay men are solely responsible for the AIDS virus. People are stupid. It's a good thing some individuals are smart.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Thanks for your input Colleen. I understand what you're saying and really appreciate you taking the time to say it.

What I've tried to explain to her is that for me, gender isn't an issue. I don't crave general cock or pussy. I crave my partner, who ever it is. I spent years in a monogamous hetro relationship and while I still fantasized about women from time to time, I never considered going and getting one. By the same token I have had long term relationships with women (more than with men) and never felt the desire to stray. Monogamy is mongamy. That's why I don't commit right now. The promise is too important to make lightly.

I will say that her comments made me feel like some sort of second class citizen. Inferior to her because she can only love women while I can love anyone. Gender doesn't matter, nor does age, race, relgion, etc. My sig line says "Love All Ways" for a reason!

Anyway, this is what I was trying to explain to her last night when I realized how I sounded.

I'm supposed to see her again late next week. I'm not sure that I want to.

I know several bisexuals, both male and female. Most of them express the same thing, not a preference for either particular type of genitalia, so much as the particular equiptment being immaterial.

As to a second class citizen, I will say there is an eliteism and snobbyness in some particular strata of the lesbian subculture that sometimes rears its ugley head. But that, like so much else, is really a matter of the person, not a generic or even stereotypical trait.

Before you write her off though, you might try to discuss her feelings with her. I once met a womderful women, with whom I had a great time, but I refused to commit to her or let it go past some friendly petting. Not because she was bi, but because she was super out going and loved to party hardy. I knew I could never give her that, I am just to shy. And I felt sure it would come back to bite me a year or two down the road, when she began to resent having to either go alone or stay home all the time because of me.

Remember, a relationship with a man offers you a built in set of things she can never offer. Social acceptability, marriage, the socio-economic benefits of mariage. he may be working at some extreme mental disadvantages in tryng to decide if she can commit her feelings to someone she knows deep down she can't completely satisfy and no amount of hard work and self improvement will ever let her.

 

[Sassy Grrl]

She may be working at some extreme mental disadvantages in tryng to decide if she can commit her feelings to someone she knows deep down she can't completely satisfy and no amount of hard work and self improvement will ever let her.

Ah, but that's the thing. If I were to commit to her, it would be because she completely satisfied me. I'm no fool, I'm not going to get into a relationship believing that "It's OK that we aren't compatiable in X Y or Z way." That's a recipe for disaster.

Is there any way to convince her of this? I do want to discuss this with her. I think she's someone who I could say, "I felt bad when you said this" and she would be receptive to hearing me out.

Thanks for your input again!

 

[CharleyH]

Hi Everyone!

I haven't been around for a while and am not even sure that any one here will remember me. I have a question for the bisexual and lesbian ladies, and really any one who might be able to give me perspective.

I am an openly bisexual woman in the midwest. I date a few men (though it's been a long time). I date mostly women. I don't really get serious about anyone, but I care for people deeply and try hard to never mistreat any of my partners.

Recently I met a wonderful woman who has me quite smitten. She's a lesbian, usually I date other bisexual women. We'v been flirting and teasing and playing and finally about a week ago she kissed me. And kissed me. And then she kissed me some more.

After our date was over, she drove me back to my car and we had a brief but important heart to heart during which she made two statements that have me just perplexed. The first thing she said is that lesbians aren't usually willing to sleep with bi women for hygene issues. "Hygene." That was her word.

Because there's been a cock in there at some point? That makes bi women unclean?

OK, next thing she said was that she was glad I was only looking for something casual because she could never commit to a me. I asked why that was and she said, "Cause you sleep with men." She went on to elaborate that if I like sex with men there was no way I could ever be happy with a lesbian for long. When I tried to explain a couple of things, I realized I sounded like I was trying to talk her into something. Blech.

Now I know that it's true that lesbians often aren't interested in bi women. But is this really the reason why? Bi women, what have you heard/experienced? Lesbians, does this statement represent any of your viewpoints?

Help me gain perspective, please!

LOL I am laughing - thats like a guy asking you why you have short hair right? LOL Let me get over my SNL feeling .... LOL

 

[LadyJeanne]

I'm not lesbian or bi, but I'd say you can only find what you seek in a relationship with someone who accepts who you are without such fundamental reservations.

*tiptoing back out of the thread*

 

[CharleyH]

Hi Everyone!

After our date was over, she drove me back to my car and we had a brief but important heart to heart during which she made two statements that have me just perplexed.

The first thing she said is that lesbians aren't usually willing to sleep with bi women for hygene issues. "Hygene." That was her word.

OK, next thing she said was that she was glad I was only looking for something casual because she could never commit to a me. I asked why that was and she said, "Cause you sleep with men." She went on to elaborate that if I like sex with men there was no way I could ever be happy with a lesbian for long. When I tried to explain a couple of things, I realized I sounded like I was trying to talk her into something. Blech.

Now I know that it's true that lesbians often aren't interested in bi women. But is this really the reason why? Bi women, what have you heard/experienced? Lesbians, does this statement represent any of your viewpoints?

Help me gain perspective, please!

Ok laughter finished. First. Lesbians have more chance of disease because when, pray tell ... do they use dental dams? Most people use condoms at least.

I had that non-committal because you are bi, BS once from a gay chick, and what it meant was: I think you want a cock, you are too strong for me, and I can't give it. I consider it non-confident in the self move.

Now do not think for a second to stereotype what a 'true' lesbian is. We are multi-dimensional, and anyone - gay or straight who cannot accept all modes of sexuality? How do you think your fantasies will play out with them?

Any 'true lesbian' will accept you. Any lesbian who uses a strap-on and then says I can't be with you because you like cock? Has problems.

As my AV guru once said sort of "never date anyone with more problems than you."

Thats my best take, and my opinion based on my experience only.

 

[tolyk]

I'm not lesbian or bi, but I'd say you can only find what you seek in a relationship with someone who accepts who you are without such fundamental reservations.

*tiptoing back out of the thread*

Too true.. that's pretty much what I wanted to say.

And: Hey there Sassy, how ya been?

 

[Guest]

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Ah, but that's the thing. If I were to commit to her, it would be because she completely satisfied me. I'm no fool, I'm not going to get into a relationship believing that "It's OK that we aren't compatiable in X Y or Z way." That's a recipe for disaster.

Is there any way to convince her of this? I do want to discuss this with her. I think she's someone who I could say, "I felt bad when you said this" and she would be receptive to hearing me out.

Thanks for your input again!

I don't know that you can convince anyone of something they don't want to believe.

From my experience, you best course is to simply be honest. You seem to be able to express yourself well, so express what you feel. After that, it's really up to her.

In the end, it isn't your hang up that's a problem, it's hers. And how hard she is willing to work on getting past it is more important than anything else in seeing if you can get past it as a couple.

 

[CharleyH]

I don't know that you can convince anyone of something they don't want to believe.

From my experience, you best course is to simply be honest. You seem to be able to express yourself well, so express what you feel. After that, it's really up to her.

In the end, it isn't your hang up that's a problem, it's hers. And how hard she is willing to work on getting past it is more important than anything else in seeing if you can get past it as a couple.

Perfect answer, Colly.

 

[Sassy Grrl]

Everyone has just been so helpful.

Thanks so much.

So if I'm reading this right, none of the lesbians on this BBS feel like my new friend? And all of the bisexual women here have encountered this same phenom. (Of those who have answered, anyway.)

This has been a great learning experience for me. I hope we can continue this dialog!

 

[Sassy Grrl]

OK, I got to get out of here for tonight. Thanks again. I'll check in again tomorrow and see if any of our European friends have chimed in.

 

[Equinoxe]

There was an interesting thread a while ago on the GLBT board about the opinions on bisexuals amongst the GLBT community. You can view it here.

I may write my thoughts on the subject when I am in a bit more lucid state-of-mind.

 

[Belegon]

How do i compete? Even if I am perfectly confident in my ability to please her, I can't do it in the same way...

Not rolling the dice on her never again feeling the need for a woman's caress, something I cannot give, no matter how much I love her or would want to.

allow me to add, as a man who has dated his share of bisexual women...this is a feeling I struggled with. (please note I changed the gender on one of Colly's statements)

Way back in my first live-in relationship, I had to face this. She had an old friend who came out to us and then my girlfriend and her became lovers. It did throw me at first. Luckily for me, I have never been the jealous type. But it was still there, a worry that I was somehow incomplete as a lover for her.

Sassy, I think that the others are right, that this is her issue. And while I am a person who does tend to say "Fuck it!" and roll the dice, I can't tell you to risk that heartbreak. Getting deeper involved with her knowing this will mean that you must take that risk.

Finally, I'd warn you against anyone who put you heavy on the defensive about such a basic issue. You may find yourself still playing the game just to prove you can win. Heaven knows I can be accused of that at times....

and yet with all that said....I believe in taking chances. Give it a shot if you are that interested. Just keep your eyes open is all.

 

[scheherazade_79]

The curse of the bisexual woman...

Right or wrong, I have to admit that the warning bells go off whenever I meet a woman who's bi.

Why? To me the whole thing of liking both men and women suggests that this isn't someone who wants to settle down to one person - and being a long-term relationships kind of girl, the chances of being cheated on and having my heart broken would be too great to take the risk.

The hygiene thing... pass. Once again, right or wrong, I tend to substitute the word "bisexual" for "omnisexual" - someone who's not all that choosy about who they sleep with. I have a similar "arm's distance" thing going for lesbians on the scene, because I know that the scene is pretty promiscuous.

As Colly said, at the end of the day if someone has the choice in whether they settle down to a hetero- or a homosexual relationship, the likelihood is that they'll go for the easier, more socially-acceptable option, and who can blame them? For the lesbian who falls for them, it's a one-way track to heartbreak.

 

[impressive]

What I've tried to explain to her is that for me, gender isn't an issue. I don't crave general cock or pussy. I crave my partner, who ever it is.

Amen!

 

[rgraham666]

Since other guys have posted here, I believe I will as well.

(pauses to think)

The fact that your partner, at least in the early stages of a relationship, may find someone else more attractive is not unique to bisexuals. It's quite true, in my opinion, of straight and gay relationships as well. You're always going to run the risk of them discovering someone else.

Perhaps being bi increases the odds of this happening, but the risk doesn't disappear if a person is straight or gay.

Personally, I found Sassy's woman's opinion rather disgusting. She came across as if she regarded men as unclean and Sassy being contaminated by them. If I expressed that opinion about women, people would think I was prejudiced, and they would be right. I don't think that this woman should be let off the hook because of her gender and sexuality.

 

[sophia jane]

The hygiene thing... pass. Once again, right or wrong, I tend to substitute the word "bisexual" for "omnisexual" - someone who's not all that choosy about who they sleep with. I have a similar "arm's distance" thing going for lesbians on the scene, because I know that the scene is pretty promiscuous.

But this isn't true for all bisexuals. I consider myself bisexual. It's possible to like men and women, and still be super choosy about who we sleep with! I had never realized this kind of thinking existed about bisexuals, it's kinda sad really.

 

[logophile]

Right or wrong, I have to admit that the warning bells go off whenever I meet a woman who's bi.

Why? To me the whole thing of liking both men and women suggests that this isn't someone who wants to settle down to one person - and being a long-term relationships kind of girl, the chances of being cheated on and having my heart broken would be too great to take the risk.

The hygiene thing... pass. Once again, right or wrong, I tend to substitute the word "bisexual" for "omnisexual" - someone who's not all that choosy about who they sleep with. I have a similar "arm's distance" thing going for lesbians on the scene, because I know that the scene is pretty promiscuous.

As Colly said, at the end of the day if someone has the choice in whether they settle down to a hetero- or a homosexual relationship, the likelihood is that they'll go for the easier, more socially-acceptable option, and who can blame them? For the lesbian who falls for them, it's a one-way track to heartbreak.

Maybe you should date Sassy's new girl. You sound like a perfect match.

I am also a bisexual woman and I will tell you straight out that it doesn't make me omnisexual. At all.

Not all that choosy? That's horrible bigotry, Sher. I like you and respect you, but that's a terrible thing to say. That bi women (does it stretch to bi men as well?) will fuck anything that moves? That we're some how just these giant nerve endings constantly looking for the fastest way to get off? Your description of us makes seem like sexual consumers, not partners.

I am a good person with a good heart. I don't sleep around. Haven't had sex in months, and that's by choice. The opportunity has been there I assure you. I am careful and deliberate in my relationships and work hard never to hurt anyone. Socially acceptable is bullshit too, at least as far as I'm concerned. Every person has the right to find love and live in it. If I find that with a woman instead of a man I will fight for it.

Here's my story in brief:

I have always had a bad habit of falling in love with my best friends, even back in junior and senior high school. I met the man of my dreams at 18, he was 28. Not exactly socially acceptable. During a time when we weren't committed, he encouraged me to sleep with a women I knew because he was genuinely wondering about my orientation and wanted me to be clear about whether or not I wanted to be him, a man, for the rest of my life. I did, and I liked it. I knew I was bisexual immediately.

I had the chance to date women off and on as our relationship wasn't really all that steady until he proposed to me 2 1/2 years later. We got married when I was 21 and I stayed faithful and monogamous to him, without even the temptation to "sleep around." I occassionally watched f/f porn and thought about women, but wouldn't have been unfaithful to him for him.

When my marriage ended 18 months ago it wasn't about anything sexual at all. It was about us. And not really being all that compatible afterall. Somehow, crazed bisexual that I am, I managed 10 years of monogamy without going looking for snatch. Reading and hearing the opinions of some lesbians makes that sound like a miracle. Perhaps I'll be beatified posthumously.

Expand your mind. That's all I'm saying. No group of people fits into any mold your brain wants to put them. That's what makes them people.

[/rant]

 

[carsonshepherd]

I'll chime in on bisexuals although my experience is more with boys than girls, so i don't know how much it will relate.

Let me say I have no problem with them. Many of my friends past and present are bi. They are generally less rigid in their ideas than people who buy into the so-called gay lifestyle.

As lovers, I tend to be a little cautious. This may be because of past experience, having been badly heartbroken by a bi boy at one point. It has nothing to do with them being "unclean" (that is just weird) or thinking they will run off with the next pussy they see. If they do, so be it. It has more to do with a general unwillingness to commit to that "lifestyle". Monogamy doesn't mean that much to me, but I need to know that my lover is not going to abandon me by shifting back and forth between two worlds; and ultimately not choosing to share mine. I don't have that choice and maybe those that do bring out my insecurities. I don't know. I automatically don't take them seriously as partners because I know that eventually, they will choose an easier path.

A label doesn't matter; love does. As Logo said above... commitment comes fromt he heart and doesn't know a gender. In my experience, people who are bi generally orient based on who they fall in love with; and it may last and it may not, just like any kind of love. If I fell in love with someone who was bi, then it would be no more precarious than any other kind of love I suppose...