A question about an uncomfortable subject

[rgraham666]

I'm editing my next e-book.

In one scene in one of the stories the main character, a man, is cuddling the eight year old daughter of a neighbour in his lap. And that's all.

My editor suggests I delete that one sentence.

So, I'm wondering.

Have we actually become that paranoid? Is it now impossible for a man to show affection towards a child without the first thought that comes to our minds becoming "Pedophile!"?

 

[cloudy]

Although I (sort of) understand your publisher's paranoia in the climate we live in now, it's not what I automatically think.

 

[egelante]

I'm editing my next e-book.

In one scene in one of the stories the main character, a man, is cuddling the eight year old daughter of a neighbour in his lap. And that's all.

My editor suggests I delete that one sentence.

So, I'm wondering.

Have we actually become that paranoid? Is it now impossible for a man to show affection towards a child without the first thought that comes to our minds becoming "Pedophile!"?

Try being in the UK...

 

[rgraham666]

When I move to Europe I've got my heart set on France.

 

[buxxxom]

How far along in the story does this scene take place? Have you introduced the main character, revealed enough about him to allow readers to form their own opinions? Is this the only instance where the reader might infer that he's a pedophile? Is there something else that might lead the reader to that conclusion?

I can only answer for me, but a single sentence wouldn't be enough to make that leap.

 

[egelante]

When I move to Europe I've got my heart set on France.

Wise choice, though they're having some upheavals over immigration at the moment. Having said that, they're always having upheavals over immigration, so it doesn't really make a difference

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, we've become a disgustingly prurient people. Nothing is innocent any more.

Can you have the girl sitting next to him, with his arm around her instead?

 

[Weird Harold]

Have we actually become that paranoid? Is it now impossible for a man to show affection towards a child without the first thought that comes to our minds becoming "Pedophile!"?

I don't think your editor is paranoid about "pedophiles" he's paranoid about people with small, narrow, dirty minds who obsess about children and sex being too closely associated -- like being on the same continent, let alone in the same book.

 

[neonlyte]

I'm editing my next e-book.

In one scene in one of the stories the main character, a man, is cuddling the eight year old daughter of a neighbour in his lap. And that's all.

My editor suggests I delete that one sentence.

So, I'm wondering.

Have we actually become that paranoid? Is it now impossible for a man to show affection towards a child without the first thought that comes to our minds becoming "Pedophile!"?

I think it depends where your reader is based, Rob. You wouldn't have any problem in France, or Portugal or most Latin countries, I can see it might be a problem your side of the water and the UK, as someone else mentioned. It is immensely regretable that we see evil where none is intended and it is usually media spurred. We all know bad news sells and finding a reasonable balance between scaring people and informing people seems to be an art we have lost.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I mentioned this to The Old Man and he reminds me that, by eight, girls are generally stand-offish anyway, and unwilling to sit in anyone's laps... At least that's been our experience with three daughters (and you know we didn't raise no prudes)

 

[sr71plt]

Does the lap scene serve any purpose in the storyline? If so, that possibly should be pinned down better to make clear why it's there (and if it's there to give the reader an impression, even if only a red herring impression, that the man's a pedophile, then discussing whether that belongs in the book is legitimate. If examining a pedophilia theme is central to the book, it should be legitimate to be there). If the image doesn't serve the threads of the book, it can be tossed out simply on not being a necessary thread element. Your editor may, at least subconsciously, be thinking along broader "good writing" lines than just because of the image that evokes.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't think there would be a problem IF you weren't writing an erotic story.

What is acceptable in normal fiction isn't necessarily acceptable in erotic fiction. The readers, and that includes those who might be looking for something to criticise, are likely to infer something that isn't there if only because it is in the context of an erotic story.

Unless it is essential, I'd omit it.

Og

 

[rgraham666]

The scene is essential. The character remarks to his wife that, "Maybe we'll be this lucky someday." Meaning have kids of their own.

Her unspoken reaction, through her body language is "God! I hope not!" It's the first intimation of a gap between them.

The idea of having the girl next to him is a good one. Her father is not very happy either, with marriage or kids, and tends to be less than giving as a result. This will give me another opening to build on his character.

Thanks every one.

 

[SensualCealy]

Rob, in my opinion, if you have it clearly outlined in the story that they are trying to conceive a child and build a relationship say as an uncle, godfather etc. with the child, there shouldnt be a problem. Showing the trust factor like a father to a child will make people think differently than the main character being a petifile.

JMO,
C

 

[Vermilion]

The scene is essential. The character remarks to his wife that, "Maybe we'll be this lucky someday." Meaning have kids of their own.

Her unspoken reaction, through her body language is "God! I hope not!" It's the first intimation of a gap between them.

The idea of having the girl next to him is a good one. Her father is not very happy either, with marriage or kids, and tends to be less than giving as a result. This will give me another opening to build on his character.

Thanks every one.

Although I think it's a damn shame that you've been told to remove this line for that reason, I would have to agree with Stella that an eight year old girl would probably not sit on someone's lap unless very upset and in need of comfort. She might be leaning against his knee with his arm about her, or he might be down on the floor playing with her - both of those are fairly intimate scenes which are more probable with an 8 year old - they also have the added bonus that they may not cause filthy-minded perverts to raise their eyebrows.

xxx
V

 

[Stella_Omega]

There's ALWAYS an answer!

Especially around here...

 

[fifty5]

Hi Rob,

Paraphrasing some of the other posts...

Would it help to turn the question on it's head? Given that you know what you want the episode to achieve, can you produce an even better way to gain that object?

 

[rgraham666]

Yep. I've decided how I'm going to do it. Thanks every one.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Rob, it looks like you got great advice here, so I shan't add any. I thought sr71plt's particularly good, though. Readers are going to attempt to find a meaning, and if what they've got to work with is "sex," "child," and not quite enough fleshing-out, disaster is possible.

But I posted mostly to say that I think you're right that our perceptions have changed. I've been watching a stack of old "Twilight Zone" episodes that I've amassed, and the difference has really struck me. Several episodes have used "loves children and continues to play with them as an adult" as what's clearly intended as a sort of shorthand for "nice person / innocent eccentric." To a modern mind, it's a little unsettling, but the writers of the day don't seem to have had the slightest inkling of a negative connotation.

Mind you, they do seem to also accept as quite normal a remarkable level of wife-mother Oedipal tension. *laugh* I need to work out if those episodes are all by the same author.

 

[Vermilion]

Yep. I've decided how I'm going to do it. Thanks every one.

Going to share...?
I feel kind involved now

x
V

 

[WRJames]

Yes, we've become a disgustingly prurient people. Nothing is innocent any more.

My theory is that there is a certain level of pruishness in all cultures -- if you get rid of it in one place it will show up somewhere else. Victorian gentlemen openly smoked cigars and consorted with prostitutes (sometimes at the same time). Just think how squeamish we have become about smoking at the same time we have gleefully done away with the sodomy laws (which leads me to a speculation which orifice a modern male would be more likely to use to receive a cigar shaped object -- but I digress). Is current society more obsessed with pedophiles because it has accepted, more or less, homosexuals? Is it because we need somewhere to vent our moral indignation? It's difficult to sort out if it is a real problem, a worsening problem, or just a lot a hysteria like the "white slavery" scare of the early twentieth century.

What is true, beyond a doubt, is that there are a lot of people, billions of them, living on the margin, and many of them, including children, are turning to prostitution as a way to survive. But that is hardly unprecedented.

 

[Pure]

hi rg,

i think it's worth recognizing that the you are not dealing with 'the law', here. there is no law against the publication of the scene you describe.

you're looking at certain organizations attempts to be safe against various laws, most of which were suspended by judges. they specified no 'material harmful to minors.' since that could be almost anything, a number of paranoid responses are possible.

there are, of course, attempts to revive 'obscenity' prosecutions, and go after texts that 'appeal to prurient interest,' but that's about everything at lit.

so each org. has drafted its guidelines, attempting NOT to rock the boat. few want the expense of fighting in court.

 

[NorCalGirl]

Yes, we've become a disgustingly prurient people. Nothing is innocent any more.

Can you have the girl sitting next to him, with his arm around her instead?

I can see why your editor flagged it. Not because it denotes inappropriate behavior, but because the editor is being realistic about the negative reaction it might cause, which would then detract from the overall appeal of your book.

I thought the above suggestion was a good alternative.

 

[Varian P]

Sounds like you know where you want to go with your scene, Rob, but hope you won't mind my throwing my two cents at the broader issue...

I agree with what lots of people have already said here, that it's a shame that society is so wound up about the slimmest possibility that affection being shown to a child by an adult, particularly men, that it's dangerous to depict earnest affection, let alone show it in real life.

Personally, I wish there would be more representations of healthy physical affection between adults and children. Maybe it would help us have a healthier attitude on the subject.

BTW, I was pleasantly startled by the depiction of a father/daughter relationship in The Door in the Floor. A very young Elle Fanning (four? six, maybe?) goes into her dad's room and wakes him. He's naked. She says something like, "Daddy, your penis looks funny." And he looks down and says something like, "Well, my penis is funny." Cut to a scene of him, still naked, carrying her down the hall to look at the family photos. Overall, his character isn't such a swell guy. But there's no hint of child molestation going on. I thought Jeff Bridges and Fanning's parents and the makers of the film were brave, making that choice.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

People never stop to contemplate what folks did in the old days. Cabins and wagons were pretty crowded places on the frontier.