A poem I would like opinion on before I submit.

Trent_Dutch

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I've just finished a poem I believe could be quite promising, but it involves a specific situation (see the large bracketed note at the bottom of the poem) and so I'm not sure if it comes across correctly to someone unfamiliar with the subject matter. Also I'm a little worried about the ending.... there seem to be too many questions there for my liking (though one of the things I was looking for is for the reader to question their own assumptions of themselves). I would really like to know if the poem succesfully conveys the image and message of blind obedience to authority, as it is difficult for me to judge, knowing what the poem refers to (and I would like to avoid attaching the notes to the poem in order for people to understand it... that sort of thing is best suited to an essay structure, and I've written far too many of them in the past).
Any comments would be greatly appreciated, as long as they are constructive. Thanks in advance.



Milgram’s Obedience Worries Me.

He is late, and picks up his pace.
Running along those dark streets.
His pace and heart begin to race,
Footfalls mirroring his inner beat.

He comes to the ambiguous grey door,
Of Linsly-Chittenden Hall, and looks around,
First to the looming and imposing spires,
Of the Yale Episcopalian Church,
And then to the green weeds growing,
Between the paving stones beneath his feet.
He takes comfort from these things…
These certainties of existence.

As he climbs the steps, reaching for the door,
It opens before him, and a man passes him,
Red faced and crying.
He swallows hard and enters.

He is consoled at once, his payment given,
Safe in his pocket, despite what happens here,
In this place, of leaking pipes and water stained walls.
With the white coated man, and the other like he.

His part is given, though he knows not the play,
The twists and subversion that wait, he looks around.
His eyes fall on the Electric chair and its straps,
The control board, with its deaths heads and dial.
His mind races as he begins, mildly at first, but soon…
He comes to a point where he wants to stop,
But the trial requires that he continue.

So he continues, amid the mounting screams,
And his own rising laughter, escalating,
With his own guilt,
He closes his eyes and kills.

I have sat and considered the implications,
Of what went on, in that Connecticut basement,
In 1961.

It worries me not for what it says about us,
But selfishly about what I think of myself.
What control would I have over my own actions?
If forced to perform such horrid interactions,
As what was asked of the Germans in Auschwitz,
Or the young American soldiers at My Lai.
Would I have the courage to not obey?
Would I even have the strength to ask why?
Or Would I submit, conform and cowtow?
Follow blindly my orders and only ask 'how'?

(For those who are not familiar with Stanley Milgram’s experiment(s) in and aroung Yale in the summer of 1961, he set up a pseudo testing situation, where subjects believed that they where taking the place of a teacher in an experiment looking at memory. The subjects where asked to read word pairs to another ‘subject’ (actually an actor) who would repeat them. Whenever the ‘subject/actor’ got one wrong the subject had to deliver an electric shock, starting with 15v but moving up incrementally to 450v (which was labelled ‘Danger: Fatal level XXX). The ‘subject/actor’ was not actually given an electric shock, but pretended he was, screaming and thrashing about, complaining of his heart problems and asking to be released from the experiment. If the subject asked to discontinue the experiment they where simply told, “The experiment requires you to continue”. If the subject continued the experiment ended after the ‘subject/actor’ feigned death, and that subject was labelled as ‘obedient’. If the subject refused to administer high level shocks the experiment was discontinued and the subject was labelled as ‘disobedient’. The worrying statistic is that 65% percent of people when presented with a credible authority where obedient, subjecting the ‘subject/actor’ to apparent discomfort, pain and even death. Even though you tell yourself otherwise, you would more than likely behave the same way.)
 
You could write a book.....

a poem doesn't cover it. There are people here that know about this. Even I
remember something about this. I wouldn't of remembered until the statement
at the end of the poem. This is not for every one. I don't see people getting
it without the ending paragraph. You will hear different from more educated
folks, but I have your average covered. I like the poem and the last verse
is something he should ask ourselves everyday.
 
This could be very powerful and definitely deserves the effort of revision.

Understanding that this is a work in progress, I was thrown by a few things, some technical and some thematic. The first stanza is a rhyming quatrain with some approximation of meter (the third line is a regularized iambic tetrameter, and the other three have major substitutions or omissions of stresses, but the impression is more or less metrical; which is what I mean by approximation), so when the second stanza abandoned that pattern, I had to readjust a little, which affected the flow of the lines in a distracting way. I'm not a stickler for regularized meter (which can also be distracting and monotonous if not handled properly), but I think that because it was the opening lines, it stuck out more than if you had made that shift or its opposite in the middle of the poem. I would suggest that for the sake of fluidity, you choose to open with either metered or unmetered lines, and then let that be your default for the rest of the poem. (a side note: I really like "Footfalls mirroring his inner beat." Reminds me of a Mark Eitzel song, "If You Have to Ask" and the line "As you walk away from me, footsteps, the useless beat.")

The end-rhyme creeps back in toward the last few lines, less of a distraction for me, but it makes me wonder if that was intentional, beginning and ending with end-rhymed lines? I am a big fan of internal rhyme and assonance and consonance, even alliteration used sparingly, so that (end-rhyme, even in unmetered lines) is not so much something I think needs to be "fixed" ( though I don't like the idea of "fixing" a poem, too much like fixing a dog, "revised" is perhaps a better word), just something you might think about as you revise.

On to thematics and subject matter. I was not familiar with the experiement until reading your explanation, so I was a little lost the first time I read the poem. When I reread it, it made more of an impact, though. Maybe a little bit of exposition within the poem itself is called for. Not to overdo it, of course, but just to set the stage, so to speak. Along those lines, I would suggest making the authority figure more prominent in the middle section of the poem. As it is, there's really just the "white coated man," which is easily missed or misinterpreted (a medical doctor? a scientist? or the men in white coats coming to take me to a room with padded walls?) without prior knowledge of the situation being described. Particularly at the point where the man decides to continue administering the electric shock, there needs to be some force compelling him to make that decision, some presence of authority that he must choose to obey or disobey, something more concrete than "the trial" that requires him to continue. Not that it has be overly specific or detailed; a suggestion is all that is needed, but it is needed.

On first read, I was thrown by the sudden transition from 3rd person narration to 1st person speaker, but rereading, it seemed not only appropriate, but also desireable to have a sudden break at that point for dramatic effect. And with the use of the 1st person pronoun in the title ("Worries Me"), it sets the reader up for that transition. Perhaps a stronger presence from capital-A Authority will help heighten the tension of that moment and call attention to its function as a transition.

Hope this was helpful. As always, use what helps and ignore what doesn't. I for one hope that you do continue working on this poem and look forward to reading the finished product.

Thanks,
s
 
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Perhaps a poem based on the last paragraph..and mentioning the experiment in passing...
sort of reverse the order, if you will
and let the reader decide to pursue what he/ she doesn't know
lumping it in with Auschwitz and My Lai will let them know a " moral dilemma took place..though not to what extent.

If you want to write about that experiment specifically you'd have to explain it in some way in the beginning
rather than go into the detail of the school...pare it down to
" Yale, 1961." and give a bare bones explanation
that might work..
Otherwise I'd have to agree with sandspike...it's too much for a poem

the writing is good..but sort of scattered as to the subject.
it will take work but this does have potential and is one of the timeless subjects that has been and will be explored through poetry for a long time.
 
trent

i too think it is well worth the efforts of revision. it seems to me those efforts need to be fairly large.

i agree with sandj that the attempt at a metered first stanza is distracting and does not sit well within the poem. i think it should be redone, unmetered.

i also agree with him that the transition from 3rd to 1st person is not a problem.

like tath, i found much of the writing scattered. i think more focus is needed, for sure.

i also think the last stanza (other than the first two lines) is not well-handled.
it is too direct for my ears and eyes.

patrick
 
trent--

I think what you need to consider is your intention of the poem.

Do you wish it to be telling the actual story? Or giving the reader the feeling that you got upon learning about the experiments (which are disturbing in and of themselves) and the even more shocking results.

I am certain that everyone who learns of these experiments, I bet more than you would guess has had the same self-reflective moments that you had. You do not need to go through the doubts you have of your ability to think for yourself and do what you think is right under the watchful eye of the Leader.

I wrote a mai lai poem soon after learning of the Milgrim (sp) experiments.


My suggestion (broad)

Start the poem with a quote from Stanley M. Something that gives an overarching feel for the theme, whether or not the reader knows the story behind it.

cut the I wonder if I .... part at the end. Too in your face. It kind of prescribes the questions for other people to ask themselves.

Maybe have more of the blind obedience to authority in there subtly. Like not crossing the street at a do not walk sign even when there is not a car in sight. etc

There are examples EVERYWHERE (even here) of how authority can sway people even ever so slightly.

It might be an easier pill to swallow before socking it to em.

My comments are on the overall approach to the poem, not on the lines etc themselves.

I did not know they took place at Yale. Or I did but have forgotten since I first saw the movie (before I ever saw Yale)

It might be cool to mix it up. :) not take it sequentially, well for me at least.

Maybe you should make this a challenge-- write about the (I always want to say Millikan which is a totally different experiment) Milgrim-- experimentation.



I think you said this, but whatever you do, do not put the explanation in the poem. It should be able to carry the message without knowing the history. The people who know the history will just be annoyed :)

I am sleep deprived and reeling from all the snow days this week.

Take my rambling, of course without saying, as you will.

All the best, would love to see what you do with this. It is not easy to grab these big historical events, I learned that with Enonla Gay

~Jennifer
 
I for one think its really really really rilly-rilly-rilly ... good
 
Kate.E said:
I for one think its really really really rilly-rilly-rilly ... good

Did you put on that sig line just for here? You're such a shit stirrer. :kiss:

I thought I saw you on Yahoo. I was working on my resume, lol.
 
God Bless Stanley, I really got a charge out of him;
"I would really like to know if the poem succesfully conveys the image and message of blind obedience to authority, as it is difficult for me to judge, knowing what the poem refers to (and I would like to avoid attaching the notes to the poem in order for people to understand it..."
My suggestion would be to get rid of everything that is not part of one of the test subjects; What did they hear? What did they think? Put yourself in their position.
"Oh, its OK he has to learn" the Doctor says. Make the Doctor as reassuring as possible. Ignore rhyme unless it serves a purpose, I'm not sure you would want a smooth flow at the beginning. At some point some internal conflict, up to you to decide how much. You want the reader to draw their own horrifing conclusions.
If it is done well enough, a simple note will suffice at the end.

Two things you do want, a great openiing line and an even better closer. I would start there.
Good luck with it
 
First of all I have to say... thank you for the responses... second of all... its now about 3:30am with me... I'm pretty drunk and have just browsed the responses, so am not ready to interact with them right now... I will probably get back to you within the next 15 hours or so to discuss your suggestions... though, before I sleep, I am going to read them again, smoke a joint, ang go through the poem again to try and get my head round some of them (like the opening to SandJ's.... I did ALOT of English in Highschool, I hold some Scottish Qualifacation Authority records for my performance in Higher English... but I never studied Poetic meter... except Iambic penatameter in 'Merchant of Venice'..... thus I have little idea of what Sandj means with the tempameters and the quatrains and the flubber and the glieben... though I AM willing to learn if someone can teach or direct to a teaching site/book... Saying that I do get Sandj's comment about required exposition in the poem..... that was what I was mainly concerned about.... But I just figured and I thought making the poem 4line/7line/4line, then again 4/7/4 before moving to the ending (with the beggining of a Thai-buk) was the best I could do using the niceties and recognised structure of poetry..... though more on this tommorow.)
(***Actually, Ive looked back and realised something that was a little nagging when I was trying to make the second 7liner fit with the first 7liner.... the first 7liner is actually an 8liner... I really should proof read my stuff more, but I find it abhorrent enough writing the stuff, never mind reading it....***).

Once again, thanks for the comments, and please, keep them coming.
 
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I grew up 5 miles from Yale University....

so this hit home for me! I personally think you have too many ideas to make a really cohesive poem, so would suggest you extend these thoughts into a longer essay and submit to Lit. in the Reviews and Essays category. The subject is a profound one, and deserves the fullest treatment. A poem about such a deep topic would be just scratching the surface, no matter how well written!

Sack
 
Trent_Dutch said:
though, before I sleep, I am going to read them again, smoke a joint, ang go through the poem again to try and get my head round some of them (like the opening to SandJ's.... I did ALOT of English in Highschool, I hold some Scottish Qualifacation Authority records for my performance in Higher English... but I never studied Poetic meter... except Iambic penatameter in 'Merchant of Venice'..... thus I have little idea of what Sandj means with the tempameters and the quatrains and the flubber and the glieben... though I AM willing to learn if someone can teach or direct to a teaching site/book


OK, quick primer on metrics, as related to my previous comments, by no means comprehensive or authoritative.

The iamb is a poetic "foot," the most prevalent foot in modern English literature ("modern" as opposed to middle or old English; we're talking roughly 5 or 6 centuries here). A "foot" is merely a unit of measurement, and an iamb is a 2-syllable unit, the first unstressed, the second stressed (duh-DUM, a-CROSS, be-LIEF). "Iambic pentameter," which everyone associates with Master William, refers to a line that contains five ("penta-") iambs. So "iambic tetrameter" is a line that contains four ("tetra-") iambs. So a regularized iambic tetrameter would contain 8 syllables, 4 iambs.

So in your poem, the third line ("His PACE / and HEART / be-GIN / to RACE") is regularized, 8 syllables, 4 iambs. The second line ("RUN-ning / a-LONG / those DARK / STREETS") has 4 stresses but only 7 sylls, with two substitutions for iambs: RUN-ning is a trochee (basically the inverse of an iamb, stress then unstress, DUH-dum); STREETS is a more difficult case because it is a single syll and some people don't like the idea of a single syll foot (personally, I have no problem with it). The fourth line ("FOOT-falls / MIR-ror- / ing his IN- / ner BEAT") opens with two trochees, followed by an anapest (a 3-syll foot, unstress, unstress, stress, duh-duh-DUM) before closing with an iamb, 9 sylls, 4 stresses. Could also be "FOOT-falls / MIR-ror-ing / his IN- / ner BEAT," a trochee followed by a dactyl (the inverse of an anapest) and two iams. I think I like this reading better than my first. Admittedly, all this scansion (which is what I've been doing, parsing the meter of the lines) is to an extent subjective, depending on how you read the line.

I like this line, but it occurs to me that "mirroring" is too visual; perhaps "echoing" would work better.

Shifting gears slightly, a quatrain refers to any stanza containing four lines.

Hope that clears things up a bit. If not, no worries. This won't be on the exam.
 
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