A monarchical, theocratic or Communist America would still be America

[pecksniff]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture. A nation is not its political constitution.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

 

[Rightguide]

This is Pecksniff, the tired old Communist, flailing about and beseeching the heavens to lament all in the American national space who hate his ideas, and they are legion.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture. A nation is not its political constitution.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

Yep. Unless we decided to rename ourselves, or merge with some other company (The Free Democratic Nation of Amazon) or country.

From the Declaration of Independence (bold emphasis is mine):

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

So, all it takes is the super-majorities necessary to have a constitutional convention and we can do it all over again. "After due diligence and careful consideration, we've decided we want to be Sweden. So, dammit, from now on we're "The Constitutional Republic of New Sweden"."

That includes deciding to be Communist or Marxist or dedicated to the Flying Spaghetti Monster - each of which stands an actual chance of happening in my book.

 

[pecksniff]

Yep. Unless we decided to rename ourselves, or merge with some other company (The Free Democratic Nation of Amazon) or country.

From the Declaration of Independence (bold emphasis is mine):

N.B.: The American nation, as a nation as distinct from a state, existed before the DOI. And even after the Revolution, there was some public debate as to whether it should be a republic or a monarchy. Washington could have been king if he had really wanted to.

 

[CornusKousa]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

We all know you're anti-American peck.

You don't have to hide it.

 

[Paul_Chance]

N.B.: The American nation, as a nation as distinct from a state, existed before the DOI. And even after the Revolution, there was some public debate as to whether it should be a republic or a monarchy. Washington could have been king if he had really wanted to.

Hmmm, I don't think you're right there. A nation is a "group of people who share a common culture and identity". Pre-Revolution America was populated by many peoples who identified themselves with their home nations. Not just the the English - but Spanish, French, German, Italian - and they saw themselves as "Spanish" or "French" in the new world colonies", not "Americans".

Even now, the US is a "nation of nations" - the indigenous nations all still exist in a much diminished form and many people residing in America consider themselves "French living in the US" or some similar variation. Huge portions of the future US were not under US control for years after the Revolution. We're much closer to having a "national" identity, but still a ways to go.

 

[pecksniff]

We all know you're anti-American peck.

You don't have to hide it.

There is not a word in the OP you can honestly contradict.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture. A nation is not its political constitution.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

There will always be a land mass, and it will likely be called "America." But if it's just another communist shithole, it won't be America.

 

[pecksniff]

There will always be a land mass, and it will likely be called "America." But if it's just another communist shithole, it won't be America.

If France goes Communist, it will still be France. America is no different in that regard.

 

[pecksniff]

What I'm trying to debunk here is that indefensible and extremely dangerous thing known as "American exceptionalism." America is not exceptional. America is a country. That is all.

 

[pecksniff]

Hmmm, I don't think you're right there. A nation is a "group of people who share a common culture and identity". Pre-Revolution America was populated by many peoples who identified themselves with their home nations. Not just the the English - but Spanish, French, German, Italian - and they saw themselves as "Spanish" or "French" in the new world colonies", not "Americans".

Even now, the US is a "nation of nations" - the indigenous nations all still exist in a much diminished form and many people residing in America consider themselves "French living in the US" or some similar variation. Huge portions of the future US were not under US control for years after the Revolution. We're much closer to having a "national" identity, but still a ways to go.

For a very excellent and in-depth treatment of that subject, I highly recommend The Next American Nation: The New Nationalism and the Fourth American Revolution, by Michael Lind. Every American should read that book.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

If France goes Communist, it will still be France. America is no different in that regard.

This so wrong. You've obviously never lived outside of the country

 

[pecksniff]

This so wrong. You've obviously never lived outside of the country

I don't need to to know a country when I see one -- that's all France is, that's all America is. And see post #10.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

I don't need to to know a country when I see one -- that's all France is, that's all America is. And see post #10.

As I suspected. America is amazingly exceptional, a multiracial democracy with great prosperity and a very successful set of institutions where one can be fully American with just a vow to follow those institutions. That can't be said for France.

 

[pecksniff]

As I suspected. America is amazingly exceptional, a multiracial democracy with great prosperity and a very successful set of institutions where one can be fully American with just a vow to follow those institutions. That can't be said for France.

I don't see where any essential difference lies. Surely France has such thing as naturalized citizenship, and the institutions of the Fifth Republic are as successful as anybody's, and I have met black Frenchmen.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

I don't see where any essential difference lies. Surely France has such thing as naturalized citizenship, and the institutions of the Fifth Republic are as successful as anybody's, and I have met black Frenchmen.

If I emigrate to France and become a naturalized citizen, I still will not be considered French.

 

[pecksniff]

If I emigrate to France and become a naturalized citizen, I still will not be considered French.

That's down to the legacy of 19th Century European ethno-nationalism. It doesn't really matter now. Your experience there would be in no important way different from a naturalized American's.

 

[phrodeau]

If I emigrate to France and become a naturalized citizen, I still will not be considered French.

Yep, and this guy emigrated to the US from Dominican Republic, and he is not considered American.

https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-rioter...-even-an-american-officer-says-182924042.html

 

[OldJourno]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture. A nation is not its political constitution.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

Ordinary? I wonder what this country would look like if Karl Marx was born in 1600 and the Founding Fathers followed his advice.
Let's move west so our five families can share in developing a farm for the state! We can give all our wheat and corn to the central planners and maybe have a small garden for our own families!

 

[pecksniff]

Ordinary? I wonder what this country would look like if Karl Marx was born in 1600 and the Founding Fathers followed his advice.

Not a conceivable AH, since everything Marx said was in the context of the Industrial Revolution, and nothing he said amounted to prescriptions for organizing a state.

Thomas Paine, however, was a kind of proto-socialist, and I can document that.

 

[OldJourno]

Not a conceivable AH, since everything Marx said was in the context of the Industrial Revolution, and nothing he said amounted to prescriptions for organizing a state.

Thomas Paine, however, was a kind of proto-socialist, and I can document that.

Good for you. Here's a bone.

 

[pecksniff]

Good for you. Here's a bone.

This is the Lit. Be careful about how you offer a bone.

 

[CornusKousa]

There is not a word in the OP you can honestly contradict.

Let's see....

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

They are essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture.

Only in name.

A nation is not its political constitution.

That's all a nation is.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

Incorrect.

The USA is a liberal idea-state that was set out as such.

It was the first, and is still the only thing close to being a liberal nation, but only in some red states.

The rest have all thrown their liberty aside in favor of the nanny state.

Thomas Paine, however, was a kind of proto-socialist, and I can document that.

Only to the extent he wasn't as liberal as the rest of the FF's.

 

[WillJ8787]

Let us hear no more talk of "American ideals" or "American values" as if such things were essential to national identity.

Since 1788, France has been through five monarchies, five republics and a fascist dictatorship -- but, through it all, France remains France, the same nation and culture. A nation is not its political constitution.

The U.S. is an ordinary nation-state like France, not an idea-state like the Soviet Union, which ceased to make sense once the people stopped believing in the ideology.

Yep, pretty much correct.

 

[CornusKousa]

Yep, pretty much correct.

Anything to justify your distain for everything the USA has stood for for 245 years eh???

Because under those mental gymnastics your politics aren't wholly anti-American.