A highly controversial film

[Marquis]

Through infinite patience and persistence, I have finally gotten a hold of a copy of Raw Deal: A Question of Consent, a documentary about the alleged rape of a stripper by University of Florida Fraternity brothers.

The documentary shows several clips of the rape taking place, because it was actually filmed by the guys who produced the tape when police asked for it, and the police later sold it to... click the fucking link if you want the story!

In any case, before anyone asks, yes, I was indeed hoping to see the video for the most nefarious purposes imaginable. However! Having seen the film I will tell you that this is anything but hot.

It is a FASCINATING look as to what rape really is however, and how rape has been redefined throughout the years. I have seen it several times and I'm still not sure if I consider what happened to be truly rape. The line is incredibly fine here, and it is fascinating to see it in front of you so real.

This is the college date rape that you're always hearing about. I wish more of you could see the film so we could discuss it, because I'm sure there would be an incredible difference of opinions here. Since I highly doubt any of you will be able to procure the video, feel free to ask me any questions and I will do my best to answer.

If you are interested in how I got a copy, I will respond only in PM.

 

[Betticus]

Since you've seen it, what is your personal take?

There are many factors involved in a rape/nonconsent situation. I've seen situations with very persistent people that just wear down a girl over time/alcohol, etc.. and she gives it up to just get the fucker off of her even though she doesn't want the sex.

I'll read the article but just want your personal take since you enjoy the forced type of interaction with your girls but that is an understood and agreed upon thing.

Without the pre-consent is what I'm getting at in this video.

 

[BlueSugar]

There is too much bad news in the news. I try not to pay attention to it, the important things trickle down to me through various sources and people anyway... they can watch and read it day in and out for me.

Saying that, I haven't heard of this particular rape.
But hear of many like it.
That is just one of the few that get reported, there are many more that don't for various reasons... its sad really.

The brutality of a rape, and the inhumanely way people are treated, the affect it has on a person ... has obviously made it tough on anyone who does have a liking towards RolePlay Rape. I've written a good bit about it, and have my opinions of course, but I'll save it for later.

*goes to read the article to post about later*

 

[Betticus]

For the record, I would probably be the last person on Earth that a defendant in a rape case would want.

I'd be fair of course but if at any time the advances of the defendant were rejected I would be utterly without mercy.

 

[Marquis]

Since you've seen it, what is your personal take?

There are many factors involved in a rape/nonconsent situation. I've seen situations with very persistent people that just wear down a girl over time/alcohol, etc.. and she gives it up to just get the fucker off of her even though she doesn't want the sex.

I'll read the article but just want your personal take since you enjoy the forced type of interaction with your girls but that is an understood and agreed upon thing.

Without the pre-consent is what I'm getting at in this video.

This is about as fine a line as it gets. I think the vast majority of people who watch this tape would not consider it rape. Personally, I would not prosecute the main perpetrator for rape, but would probably try to come up with something more minor to stick on him.

It is a situation of a guy who won't take no for an answer, and a female with not quite enough self esteem to say no.

This really hits home for me, because I had something similar to this occur in a real relationship once. I found out that my girlfriend of many years had cheated on me, and when I questioned her about it she said she felt she had been raped. The other details of the incident weighed heavily against that, but particularly knowing how meek that girl was, I could see a similar situation happening to her. She lied about SO many details though, her credibility wasn't exactly too high. That doesn't mean a rape didn't take place of course.

Just like the fact that this girl was a stripper, drunk and went home with these guys doesn't mean she didn't get raped.

It's a hard question to answer. I've never pursued a girl with the tenacity as the perpetrator in the video, but I've held hands back and wrestled with a girl to get it in, only to have her moan in ecstasy when I was inside her. Honestly, I think most agressive guys have. I'm careful, but this does make me wonder about what a girl could say about me. I guess I should be keeping video evidence.

 

[Marquis]

For the record, I would probably be the last person on Earth that a defendant in a rape case would want.

I'd be fair of course but if at any time the advances of the defendant were rejected I would be utterly without mercy.

Do you have issues with your father?

 

[graceanne]

Do you have issues with your father?

Ok, maybe I'm being dense. But what does that have to do with what he said? That was totally out of left field.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Without seeing the video but counselling many women who have been raped in a variety of ways and situations my take is if a person, woman or man, says no at any time and the other continues, it is rape. Over the decades there have been a variety of arguments successfully used to say a rape did not occur, some of them being;

The victim had presence of mind to beg for protection to be used (has been argued they were then consenting even though they were beaten and held at knife or gunpoint),

The victim was a sex worker (hell, why would they say no when they do it for a living and what right do they have to claim rape or say no?),

There were physical signs of excitement as in orgasm or natural lubrication (my take is if in a stressed situation many women lubricate through adverse excitement and as for orgasm, if you said no it is still rape whether on a physical level for whatever biological reason your body responded....eg. rape in marriage or with an estranged partner who you still have strong feelings for but may under no circumstance want to have sex with),

They had been sexually involved at a prior time in history (so consent had been given on previous occasions so should be expected to remain a blanket consent until the pertpetrator decides they no longer want it),

That the victim wore a provocative style of clothing (of course that means it is open season),

The victim gave consent to save their own or someone else's life which was being directly threatened in that moment,

There was no penetration of penis to vagina as it was anal or something other than a penis was used to penetrate the victim,

The victim was under the influence of drugs or alcohol at the time and though they said no, the perpetrator thought they didn't know what they were saying,

The victim was unconscious at the time so there is no evidence they would have said no,

And one lovely helpful police officer who testified that when he arrived at the scene of a woman who had been gang raped, she was dirty, untidy, and hysterical so obviously not a respectable and credible woman!!

There was an interesting scenario written (which I have somewhere in a box ) to highlight the stupidity of holding a woman responsible for her own rape based on location, time, and/or dress. It went something like this:

Lawyer: So Mr Brown, you are telling us you had no part or responsibility for your robbery and assault?

Mr Brown: That's right.

Lawyer: Yet wasn't it true you were in a part of town that was known to have previous robberies occur?

Mr. Brown; Yes, but ....

Lawyer: Just answer the question Mr Brown.

Mr Brown: Yes

Lawyer: And wasn't it already 10pm at night?

Mr Brown: Yes

Lawyer: Why would you be there at that time of night if you were not wanting to be robbed?

Mr Brown: I had dinner with a client.

Lawyer: Isn't that a strange time to be having dinner?

Mr Brown: No, he had just flown in from overseas and we needed to meet before the morning...

Lawyer: Need I remind you again to just answer the question?

Mr Brown: No sir.

Lawyer: So already you have admitted you were knowingly and willingly in a disreputable part of town late at night?

Mr Brown: Well yes, but...

Lawyer: Just answer the questions!!

Mr Brown: Sorry.

Lawyer: Now Mr Brown, what were you wearing?

Mr Brown: A business suit.

Lawyer: A very nice suit isn't it true Mr Brown?

Mr Brown: One of the ones I use for work.

Lawyer: Let me remind you to answer the question...shall we try again? Wasn't the suit you were wearing one most would consider nice, clean, well made?

Mr Brown: Yes I suppose so.

Lawyer: Come now Mr Brown, you can do better than that....in fact if i recall it was an Italian suit was it not?

Mr Brown: Yes.

Lawyer: So you go into this neighbourhood late at night dressed in an Italian business suit?

Mr Brown: Yes.

Lawyer: And didn't you have some type of jewellry on?

Mr Brown: Only my watch and wedding ring.

Lawyer: Aha!! So you also had flashy jewellery on?

Mr Brown: I wouldn't call it flashy.

Lawyer: You mightn't but a thief and some others would. And how did you get to the dinner?

Mr Brown: I drove my car there.

Lawyer: Your car? What type of car?

Mr Brown: A Ford...company car.

Lawyer: Yes, and not very old is it Mr Brown?

Mr Brown: No, I was just given it 2 months ago.

Lawyer: Don't you think it a bit foolish to drive a car like that to the dinner knowing what sort of neighbourhood you were in, and at night?

Mr Brown: No.

Lawyer: Isn't it tru you did everything you could to draw attention to yourself andd attract the assault that took place?

Mr Brown: No, I did not.

Lawyer: Flashy car, flashy jewelry, late at night, bad neighbourhood and you hold no responsibility?

Mr Brown: I was dining with a client!! I did not go to get robbed and beaten .

Lawyer: And yet, when they stopped you, you willingly handed over your wallet, watch, ring, and car keys, isn't that so?

Mr Brown: They held a gun to my head and threatened to shoot me!!

Lawyer: Mr Brown, did you or did you not hand over the property?

Mr Brown: Yes, but....

Lawyer: So you go to that neighbourhood, dressed the way you did, nice clothes, jewellry, nice car...and hand over your property willingly...and it is not your fault?

Mr Brown: No....

Lawyer: Mr Brown, we all heard you admit to it....you invited the attack and then helped carry it out!!

Mr Brown: I was in hospital with injuried for 4 days afterward!!

Lawyer: But you knew by doing as you did you were asking to be attacked and then you gave them your property without a struggle!!

Mr Brown: That's not the way it was.

Lawyer: But you just told us it was didn't you?

Mr Brown: But...


You get the picture? Anything can be painted to look other than it is and where rape and abuse of women and children is concerned, it has a long history of successfully denying the victim their rights. If someone says no and someone forces their way on them, it is non-consensual, even if consent is obtained through threats, attrition, intimidation, drugging or dishonesty. Just because someone has a drink with another or smiles in passing or happens to appeal to another, does not then mean they are there to be taken whether they want to be or not.

Catalina

 

[Marquis]

All that is very true, but the accused have rights as well. I'm afraid a woman claiming she was raped is not enough evidence for a rape conviction.

Furthermore, she never clearly says "no" on what we see of the tape. You really should watch the movie, I'd be incredibly interested to hear what you think.

 

[Killishandra]

All that is very true, but the accused have rights as well. I'm afraid a woman claiming she was raped is not enough evidence for a rape conviction.

Furthermore, she never clearly says "no" on what we see of the tape. You really should watch the movie, I'd be incredibly interested to hear what you think.

Yes, but according to your link, the tape was edited by the fraternity brothers before being handed over.

 

[chris9]

All that is very true, but the accused have rights as well. I'm afraid a woman claiming she was raped is not enough evidence for a rape conviction.

Furthermore, she never clearly says "no" on what we see of the tape. You really should watch the movie, I'd be incredibly interested to hear what you think.

As far as I see, evidence ALWAYS is the problem with crimes. We learn how to solve very pretty cases, criminal or other, but after University, in the real world, all the law won't help us, if we don't find the proof of some facts...

 

[graceanne]

Sadly enough, there are women who have such low self esteems that they are incapable of saying no, even when they don't want to. And then their's women who say no and are just playing hard to get. If the woman doesn't say no, or something to that effect, men are not psychic. And when it comes to sex, they are liable to see what they want in your body language. It sucks, and it's sad, but that's life. And if this woman didn't say no, I'll bet money that it's not going to stick, even if she was unwilling.

 

[TaintedB]

Do you think, Marquis, that the editing job that the frat boys did on the tape helped to blur the line of consent in order to present the story that they wished to tell? Maybe they edited out the clearly nonconsensual parts?

 

[TaintedB]

Ok, maybe I'm being dense. But what does that have to do with what he said? That was totally out of left field.

I think it's just a classic Marquis joke. Since you don't take issue with all the other very weird one-liners this man's brain comes up with, why take issue here? We've all been hit with a "Marquis." Why should Bet be exempt? (shrug)

 

[TaintedB]

There was an interesting scenario written (which I have somewhere in a box ) to highlight the stupidity of holding a woman responsible for her own rape based on location, time, and/or dress. It went something like this:

Lawyer: So Mr Brown, you are telling us you had no part or responsibility for your robbery and assault?

That's the best example showing the stupidity of this argument that I've ever seen. Right-click, save as!

 

[catalina_francisco]

That's the best example showing the stupidity of this argument that I've ever seen. Right-click, save as!

The original was much better. Another sad thing was a woman who was raped, had internal and external injuries but the lawyer convinced the jury she had harmed herself in an effort to falsely accuse the former partner of rape. She was a single parent who had raised her children alone, paid off her home through working 2 jobs at times, and the rapist after he got off, took her to court for defammation of character and a few other things and the outcome was she had to sell her home to raise the money the court demanded she pay him in compensation.

Catalina

 

[chris9]

The original was much better. Another sad thing was a woman who was raped, had internal and external injuries but the lawyer convinced the jury she had harmed herself in an effort to falsely accuse the former partner of rape. She was a single parent who had raised her children alone, paid off her home through working 2 jobs at times, and the rapist after he got off, took her to court for defammation of character and a few other things and the outcome was she had to sell her home to raise the money the court demanded she pay him in compensation.

Catalina

One of the reasons I study law is I just can't stand such injustice I get all angry and stuff and want to scream and kick and beat up those people. What kind of court was this? There are some instances when I'm really glad that I'm in good old Germany. There are no such high compensations among normal people here. And there is no jury to convince, which in my opinion helps keeping the case on a more objective and just base, more about the law and less about the accused/accuser, as the judges learn to not only value the appearance and all. That's not saying there are some unjust decisions around here...

 

[catalina_francisco]

One of the reasons I study law is I just can't stand such injustice I get all angry and stuff and want to scream and kick and beat up those people. What kind of court was this? There are some instances when I'm really glad that I'm in good old Germany. There are no such high compensations among normal people here. And there is no jury to convince, which in my opinion helps keeping the case on a more objective and just base, more about the law and less about the accused/accuser, as the judges learn to not only value the appearance and all. That's not saying there are some unjust decisions around here...

LOL, I have a friend who is one of the top lawyers in Oz and has a few times tried to convince me to follow in his footsteps as he thinks I would be perfect.....hmmmm, I decided long ago in the world we live in I could never do it and survive....I would explode and certainly would not be able to defend someone I knew had committed such a crime. It is an area which still fascinates me though, but much better from the sidelines and using it to help through other avenues and approaches.

Catalina

 

[caela]

Just a personal opinion but the fact that the frat brothers had the prescence of mind, after a drunken party like this sounds like, looks fishy to me. It sounds like the girl went to the cops pretty damn quickly so someone edited it that morning.Unless they knew they'd done something wrong why edit while still suffering the aftereffects of all that alcohol? Like I said it just looks fishy.

I don't know what the laws are in Florida where this happened but in a lot of states if she was drunk they could automaticaly be charged with rape because the law states that a person under the influence of drugs or alcohol doesn't have the prescence of mind needed to consent.

 

[chris9]

LOL, I have a friend who is one of the top lawyers in Oz and has a few times tried to convince me to follow in his footsteps as he thinks I would be perfect.....hmmmm, I decided long ago in the world we live in I could never do it and survive....I would explode and certainly would not be able to defend someone I knew had committed such a crime. It is an area which still fascinates me though, but much better from the sidelines and using it to help through other avenues and approaches.

Catalina

I very sincerely hope that I will be able to make my living without defending anyone of whose crimes I would be convinced.
I'm very interested in the human/civil rights that come into action with the state. So right now I would like to become a lawyer for administrative law. That way I could help people who were treated unfairly by the government/state offices and would prevent me from exploding/killing others or myself/becoming depressed, which would certainly happen if I would have to face too many evil people over the years.

 

[flowerchilde]

I've almost gotten into some trouble because I am so sexually submissive. I find that guys will take advantage of this fact and sometimes I just can't say no. Thankfully it's never escalated to rape, I was lucky, but I can see how this can happen. Very interesting article Marquis.

 

[graceanne]

I think it's just a classic Marquis joke. Since you don't take issue with all the other very weird one-liners this man's brain comes up with, why take issue here? We've all been hit with a "Marquis." Why should Bet be exempt? (shrug)

*sigh* I'm not taking issue - I'm confused.

 

[Marquis]

Yes, but according to your link, the tape was edited by the fraternity brothers before being handed over.

Do you think, Marquis, that the editing job that the frat boys did on the tape helped to blur the line of consent in order to present the story that they wished to tell? Maybe they edited out the clearly nonconsensual parts?

It is very difficult to say. Viewing the tape itself makes it hard to imagine what they might've edited out. Besides, if they did edit out anything major, I would imagine there would be blank spots in the tape. You would think that would make the police more suspicious, but I could see Gainesville police protecting the good old frat boys from something even that obvious.

It was not mentioned on the film however, which seems to really scrutinize the incident.

 

[Marquis]

Sadly enough, there are women who have such low self esteems that they are incapable of saying no, even when they don't want to. And then their's women who say no and are just playing hard to get. If the woman doesn't say no, or something to that effect, men are not psychic. And when it comes to sex, they are liable to see what they want in your body language. It sucks, and it's sad, but that's life. And if this woman didn't say no, I'll bet money that it's not going to stick, even if she was unwilling.

I do think a lot of it comes down to body language. My best determination of this case was that, while the girl was afraid to say no explicitly, her body language was clearly rejecting him. I think the perp saw that, and realized he could overpower her will, and realized it wouldn't be seen as rape because she wasn't protesting violently enough.

It really is quite sad.

Where is the line of consent? Do females need to expressly say "yes, you may fuck me"? Or is just not saying "NO!" enough?

I can say that a lot of women, particularly young women, are not ever going to be so bold as to say "yes, fuck me please". The vast majority of them are just too shy, and have complexes about being sluts. They'd rather get naked under bedsheets with a man and be terribly surprised when he "manages" to seduce her and stick it in. This puts guys in an awkward position, but I hold that this particular dude knew what was going on.

 

[Marquis]

I don't know what the laws are in Florida where this happened but in a lot of states if she was drunk they could automaticaly be charged with rape because the law states that a person under the influence of drugs or alcohol doesn't have the prescence of mind needed to consent.

In that case, I've raped, and been raped, many a time.