A Firm Stance on Grammar!

[Keroin]

Not what you think...

http://www.upworthy.com/stephen-fry-takes-a-firm-stance-on-grammar-he-doesnt-go-the-way-youd-think-2?c=upw1

Yep. I'm guilty. Working on it, though.

 

[Netzach]

Aieeeee kinetic typography slow DOWN icky. I have to listen with eyes closed. I don't do the pedantic language thing, but I'll do it to bad design!

Actually the one way in which I don't agree is that I feel it's precisely the people being mocked for being "wrong" with language who are doing the most innovative things with it and making it fresh and making a living with this, it's not the academics and the theorists who are really bending it in new ways.

Who's having more fun with words: U of M grad students or Brother Ali?


The part where he laments the fact that people using language and immersing themselves in the pleasure are likely to be made fun of - the people really *really* doing that in a genuine way are non-pro. They're the "us."

I'm pretty good about this. I can do Chicago manual if I have to. If I don't have to, I try to mimic my vernacular. Yes, I really actually talk this way, plus the profligate F bombs.

 

[Keroin]

Aieeeee kinetic typography slow DOWN icky. I have to listen with eyes closed. I don't do the pedantic language thing, but I'll do it to bad design!

Interesting. I loved the text!

Actually the one way in which I don't agree is that I feel it's precisely the people being mocked for being "wrong" with language who are doing the most innovative things with it and making it fresh and making a living with this, it's not the academics and the theorists who are really bending it in new ways.

Who's having more fun with words: U of M grad students or Brother Ali?

The part where he laments the fact that people using language and immersing themselves in the pleasure are likely to be made fun of - the people really *really* doing that in a genuine way are non-pro. They're the "us."

I didn't get the sense that he thought it was pro's who were having fun with the language, in fact just the other way around.

 

[Netzach]

Interesting. I loved the text!



I didn't get the sense that he thought it was pro's who were having fun with the language, in fact just the other way around.

In the opener, he talks about how anyone who's really passionate about language is likely to be made fun of. I got the impression he meant for being elitist, not for being un-elitist. Maybe not though.

I'll admit that the nouning of verbs only drives me crazy because the context in which I was always exposed to it was in a corporate ladder that thought this was a marker of being smarter than everyone else somehow, by using this gag-inducing flourish you became "insider" - it actually separated anyone WITH education out of the mix.

 

[Keroin]

In the opener, he talks about how anyone who's really passionate about language is likely to be made fun of. I got the impression he meant for being elitist, not for being un-elitist. Maybe not though.

Ahh, see I took that to mean passionate in the sense that they were enjoying the use of words, not that they were professional word slingers. My experience is that writers are the snootiest of the snootiest when it comes to grammar.

Yes. Me.

But working on it.

 

[Keroin]

I know a writer who will happily accept smilies in an email but will send a cranky reply if you use "lol".

And another who can't stand "texting" as a verb but consistently uses "Google" as a verb.

It's a weird form of snobbery.

 

[midwestyankee]

Hello. My name is Yank and I'm a grammarholic.
Hello, Yank.
I've thought about this many times and I'm quite certain that it started in fourth grade. At that age, I read everything at hand, so when I found a high school grammar textbook in a box of miscellaneous books bkught at auction, I opened it with complete curiosity. Then I read it like it was an instruction manual for the female of our species. I have been a grammarholic ever since.
Oh, I tried to stop, to mend my ways. Sometimes I would dangle a participle in dinnertime conversation just to see if anyone would notice. Occasionally I would even finish a sentence with a preposition. But it all felt so dirty and demeaning. I couldn't keep it up. I'm sure you'd enjoy hearing that I hit bottom and was arrested for pedantophilia. I have not. I stand before you unrepentant. Thank you for your time and for the coffee.

 

[Keroin]

Hello. My name is Yank and I'm a grammarholic.

HA!

I get you. For me, what I've been realizing is that part of the joy of art is breaking the rules and experimenting. Sure, come second draft and beyond, I have to knuckle under and really look at what works versus what's "fun". But if I limit myself to narrow little parameters on the first draft (aka MY draft) what's the point?

(Though, I have to say, we have a first-rate copy/line editor now, and I am learning tons from his red pen of doom. Expensive but worth it.)

Also, I'm trying to be less judgmental, in general. WIP.

 

[KoPilot]

Let's just say... that I've got way more respect for the likes of urban slam poets than stuffy academic grammarians. ;P

 

[midwestyankee]

HA!

I get you. For me, what I've been realizing is that part of the joy of art is breaking the rules and experimenting. Sure, come second draft and beyond, I have to knuckle under and really look at what works versus what's "fun". But if I limit myself to narrow little parameters on the first draft (aka MY draft) what's the point?

(Though, I have to say, we have a first-rate copy/line editor now, and I am learning tons from his red pen of doom. Expensive but worth it.)

Also, I'm trying to be less judgmental, in general. WIP.

Yes. I find myself struggling to let the free words reign so as to reveal my voice more readily, while at the same time wanting desperately to do so without breaking too many rules. Thus I let a few sentences through that begin with "so" or "and" and I let some conclude with "don't you?" sorts of expressions. Apart from that, the need to be verbally precise feels like a genetic code that is every bit as rigid as the rule that my heart continue to beat.

So that's why I am forcing myself to do my rewrites in a set amount of time per segment. Otherwise I'd worry them to death and leave my readers with way too many reasons to drop the book like a piece of spam.

Congrats on finding a truly useful copy editor. Many years ago in a life I rarely acknowledge, I worked for a newspaper. On that job, which was an hourly gig, I often had free time. To amuse myself I used to use my trusty red pen to mark up the day's paper for all of the detritus left in place by the copy editors. Much fun ensued, at least in my head.

 

[Keroin]

Yes. I find myself struggling to let the free words reign so as to reveal my voice more readily, while at the same time wanting desperately to do so without breaking too many rules. Thus I let a few sentences through that begin with "so" or "and" and I let some conclude with "don't you?" sorts of expressions. Apart from that, the need to be verbally precise feels like a genetic code that is every bit as rigid as the rule that my heart continue to beat.

So that's why I am forcing myself to do my rewrites in a set amount of time per segment. Otherwise I'd worry them to death and leave my readers with way too many reasons to drop the book like a piece of spam.

The irony is that truly great fiction consistently breaks the rules of grammar. Non-fiction is a bit different but you still want to have a "voice" that resonates with the folks who will be reading your work. The challenge for you, I imagine, is making your material dynamic and accessible without losing the valuable facts and technical information.

Congrats on finding a truly useful copy editor. Many years ago in a life I rarely acknowledge, I worked for a newspaper. On that job, which was an hourly gig, I often had free time. To amuse myself I used to use my trusty red pen to mark up the day's paper for all of the detritus left in place by the copy editors. Much fun ensued, at least in my head.

The local Nelson paper is a minefield of spelling and grammatical errors. Even L catches them, and he will readily admit he still doesn't understand where to use apostrophes... so you know it's bad.

ETA: I'm kicking myself that we didn't find this copy editor for the first book but, ah well, it's a learning process.

 

[midwestyankee]

The irony is that truly great fiction consistently breaks the rules of grammar. Non-fiction is a bit different but you still want to have a "voice" that resonates with the folks who will be reading your work. The challenge for you, I imagine, is making your material dynamic and accessible without losing the valuable facts and technical information.



The local Nelson paper is a minefield of spelling and grammatical errors. Even L catches them, and he will readily admit he still doesn't understand where to use apostrophes... so you know it's bad.

ETA: I'm kicking myself that we didn't find this copy editor for the first book but, ah well, it's a learning process.

Somewhere in one of my boxes of memorabilia is a letter I received from one of the lead columnists at the paper where I worked. I'd written to him in appreciation of his many, many years of great work but also to point out (probably for the umpteenth time) that a copy editor had left him vulnerable to ridicule with an egregious error in a headline for his column. Something many people don't know is that in the newspaper trade, the headlines are often written by copy editors. Poor Jack, he got hammered for a couple of weeks by the likes of me and other grammar police for the work of someone I probably knew at the paper. That's how I learned about the provenance of headlines, in fact.

True story: I applied for a job as a copy editor at that paper but did not get the job. I'm not sure, but it's entirely possible that I was discriminated against because I pointed out a grammatical error in their grammar test.

 

[JMohegan]

I've thought about this many times and I'm quite certain that it started in fourth grade.

Funny, my animus with respect to English-teacher-types was born about the same time.

At that age, I read everything at hand, so when I found a high school grammar textbook in a box of miscellaneous books bkught at auction, I opened it with complete curiosity. Then I read it like it was an instruction manual for the female of our species.

Not much to say about this except, you know, wow.

I have been a grammarholic ever since.

Nothing wrong with it, as long as you keep it yourself.

I'd compare the affliction to that of fashionaholics. Wear what you want, but don't mock the attire of others. That way lies dickish pretentiousness, not to mention plain old bad manners.

 

[Keroin]

Funny...

You're like a forum ninja, JM. Never know when or where you'll show up. Then you vanish like the wind!

 

[seela]

True story: I applied for a job as a copy editor at that paper but did not get the job. I'm not sure, but it's entirely possible that I was discriminated against because I pointed out a grammatical error in their grammar test.

Last year I got official feedback for my thesis in a written form and they also commented on my language. They pointed out that my around 100 page thesis had 17 commas missing and that was the only real problem they had with my writing. Their feedback was less than one page and had three commas missing, used one wrong relative pronoun and managed to screw up a compound construction. In one page. So yeah, I don't think I'm going to sweat over my grammar any time soon. I did get and itch to send the review board some feedback of my own, though.

(Missing a comma between clauses is probably the most common mistake people make when writing Finnish; we use different relative pronouns depending on whether the object is a single word preceding the relative clause or a whole larger concept preceding it; and some of the compound constructions can be tricky, but they were commenting on my language so I'd expect theirs to be top notch, and they're not that tricky.)