A few questions about FairTax

Ulaven_Demorte

Non-Prophet Organization
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For those of you who think this is such a brilliant idea. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to these questions among others:

How will this Fair tax affect housing development, that is, NEW houses being built that will cost ~23% more since only those houses will be subject to taxation under Fair tax. Why would someone not buy a home thats a few years old that is identical in features/size/location for say 15% less but still more expensive than prior to the Fair tax as a used home. it's a free market right. You can either pay the tax on a new house, or pay the owner of a used home that has upped his price to just under what you would pay for a new home. So housing prices go up and new construction goes down. If not, why not?

How do you prevent abuses of this system? Services by thier nature are MUCH more difficult to tax than are goods. Which is why most states only attempt to tax very few of them yet the fair tax attempts to tax ALL of them. Example: Every time you have to go to the doctor or hospital you would be hit with an additional 23% tax for services on your bill. This WILL lead to increased insurance premiums as the insurance companies pass along thier new tax to the consumer.

Every serious analysis has concluded that a Federal sales tax would have massive evasion. Taxing the spending of drug dealers and others not currently paying income taxes will not come close to compensating for the new evasion opportunities that will be created. Since it is not in the interest of either retailers or consumers to pay the tax, and because all of the revenue is collected at the point of final sale, it will be too easy for tax-free deals to be made with producers and wholesalers. Although evasion of state sales taxes is relatively small, that is only because the rates are low enough that it is not worth the trouble. However, where rates are high on things like tobacco, evasion is also high. A vast amount of foreign experience indicates that retail sales taxes cannot be collected much above 10 percent without breaking down.

Then there is a very severe problem of taxing business inputs under a sales tax. These must be exempt from tax in order to avoid cascading -- taxes being levied on taxes -- which creates serious economic distortions. To avoid this under the Fair tax, every business, no matter how small, would need some sort of exemption certificate, which would create unlimited opportunities for evasion, or they will have to be extensively audited in ways at least as onerous as under the income tax law.

Also, what about savings plans contributed to before implementation of the Fair tax? Moneys that have already been taxed once in the form of income tax. Are they not going to be subjected to taxes yet again when the money is spent?
 
Here i went and posted this for Captain Amatrixca since he's too lazy to look in his own thread because "I only look at the first page".

As predicted, he vanished immediately after asking that I repost my questions, Recidiva can back me up. She's credible.

Answer up buddy boy. If you can.

Hell, Someone help him out here.. Anyone know the answers to these questions?
 
Ulaven_Demorte said:
Here i went and posted this for Captain Amatrixca since he's too lazy to look in his own thread because "I only look at the first page".

As predicted, he vanished immediately after asking that I repost my questions, Recidiva can back me up. She's credible.

Answer up buddy boy. If you can.

Hell, Someone help him out here.. Anyone know the answers to these questions?

Yay! I'm credible!

*does the credibility dance*

It involves a perfect attendance record and no indictments.
 
Some startling facts about income tax

This is the data for calendar year 2003 released by the Internal Revenue Service.

The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%.

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners.

The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%)

The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%).

The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%).

The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%).

The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%!

And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%).
The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.
 
Ulaven_Demorte said:
For those of you who think this is such a brilliant idea. I have yet to get a satisfactory answer to these questions among others:

How will this Fair tax affect housing development, that is, NEW houses being built that will cost ~23% more since only those houses will be subject to taxation under Fair tax. Why would someone not buy a home thats a few years old that is identical in features/size/location for say 15% less but still more expensive than prior to the Fair tax as a used home. it's a free market right. You can either pay the tax on a new house, or pay the owner of a used home that has upped his price to just under what you would pay for a new home. So housing prices go up and new construction goes down. If not, why not?

How do you prevent abuses of this system? Services by thier nature are MUCH more difficult to tax than are goods. Which is why most states only attempt to tax very few of them yet the fair tax attempts to tax ALL of them. Example: Every time you have to go to the doctor or hospital you would be hit with an additional 23% tax for services on your bill. This WILL lead to increased insurance premiums as the insurance companies pass along thier new tax to the consumer.

Every serious analysis has concluded that a Federal sales tax would have massive evasion. Taxing the spending of drug dealers and others not currently paying income taxes will not come close to compensating for the new evasion opportunities that will be created. Since it is not in the interest of either retailers or consumers to pay the tax, and because all of the revenue is collected at the point of final sale, it will be too easy for tax-free deals to be made with producers and wholesalers. Although evasion of state sales taxes is relatively small, that is only because the rates are low enough that it is not worth the trouble. However, where rates are high on things like tobacco, evasion is also high. A vast amount of foreign experience indicates that retail sales taxes cannot be collected much above 10 percent without breaking down.

Then there is a very severe problem of taxing business inputs under a sales tax. These must be exempt from tax in order to avoid cascading -- taxes being levied on taxes -- which creates serious economic distortions. To avoid this under the Fair tax, every business, no matter how small, would need some sort of exemption certificate, which would create unlimited opportunities for evasion, or they will have to be extensively audited in ways at least as onerous as under the income tax law.

Also, what about savings plans contributed to before implementation of the Fair tax? Moneys that have already been taxed once in the form of income tax. Are they not going to be subjected to taxes yet again when the money is spent?
Will there be abuses? Of course there will be. But not nearly as many as today.
Not one single advocate maintains that there will not be an adjustment process and that spending patterns will probably change. Being in Real Estate business myself I hear all sorts of horrendous predictions if the fair tax is passed. To which I tell each and everyone of them. Bullshit.

We currently have a system that is quite literally a MONSTROSITY that can only be defended by attacking and misrepresenting the other alternatives. This current system is not only ambiguous, confusing and contrdictory but by its massive size invites fraud and deceit. It has now become the chief avenue for poliitical and corporate corruption.

Contrary to popular belief our tax code is NOT a social engineering code, but that is exactly what it is being used for today, with disasterous results I might add.
 
BlueEyesInLevis said:
Some startling facts about income tax

This is the data for calendar year 2003 released by the Internal Revenue Service.

The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%.

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners.

The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%)

The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%).

The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%).

The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%).

The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%!

And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%).
The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.

None of this has anything to do with the FairTax that I asked about.
 
Ulaven_Demorte said:
None of this has anything to do with the FairTax that I asked about.
I agree it does not address your questions directly.

But it does address just some of the inequities of the current system and supports the need for an alternative like the FairTax.
 
BlueEyesInLevis said:
Will there be abuses? Of course there will be. But not nearly as many as today.
Not one single advocate maintains that there will not be an adjustment process and that spending patterns will probably change. Being in Real Estate business myself I hear all sorts of horrendous predictions if the fair tax is passed. To which I tell each and everyone of them. Bullshit.

We currently have a system that is quite literally a MONSTROSITY that can only be defended by attacking and misrepresenting the other alternatives. This current system is not only ambiguous, confusing and contrdictory but by its massive size invites fraud and deceit. It has now become the chief avenue for poliitical and corporate corruption.

Contrary to popular belief our tax code is NOT a social engineering code, but that is exactly what it is being used for today, with disasterous results I might add.

If it's bullshit then answer the questions. Facts please, "gut feelings" and "I think" aren't factual arguements. I'm not saying that the system in place now is good.

If the idea of the Fair Tax is to propose an alternative what is in place now then of course people are going to ask questions.

You are in Real estate. So what would a 30-31% (thats 23% tax inclusive) increase in ONLY new housing costs do to the housing industry?
 
Ulaven_Demorte said:
If it's bullshit then answer the questions. Facts please, "gut feelings" and "I think" aren't factual arguements. I'm not saying that the system in place now is good.

If the idea of the Fair Tax is to propose an alternative what is in place now then of course people are going to ask questions.

You are in Real estate. So what would a 30-31% (thats 23% tax inclusive) increase in ONLY new housing costs do to the housing industry?

I will be honest, I have not read the FairTax plan you are quoting, so I cannot comment on that one part.

The tax plans that I have discussed with my colleagues centered on the home mortgage deduction elimination. Those against the change cannot see past their next few sales to see the overall benefits that will pass on to them eventually. They incorrectly believe everyone will suddenly become renters. And they wont.

I never said there was an alternative without problems for somebody somewhere. But the current method has problems for everybody everywhere. Our tax code does not HAVE to fill an entire wing of the Library of Congress.
The current system is nothing more than an undocumented Congressional Retirement Package. It cannot be fixed, it is just too large. It must be DISMANTLED and the sooner the better, because it just grows and grows and grows and grows..........

To add to this. It seems to me that this problem is much like our Social Security problem. None will try to defend it. Some will try to change it, the rest will argue against any changes but will never offer any alternatives themselves.
 
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BlueEyesInLevis said:
I will be honest, I have not read the FairTax plan you are quoting, so I cannot comment on that one part.
And once again, BlewGuysInThighHighs jumps into an argument he knows fuck all about. Do you like being made to look a fool? Does it satisfy some deep seated massochistic need in you?
 
SeanH said:
And once again, BlewGuysInThighHighs jumps into an argument he knows fuck all about. Do you like being made to look a fool? Does it satisfy some deep seated massochistic need in you?
LOL... are you stalking again Sean?
 
BlueEyesInLevis said:
LOL... are you stalking again Sean?
You're the one that follows me around retardo boy, I was just reading the thread, the demorte guy posts interesting stuff. And this is one of A_Js soapboxes, so I wanted to read it. What's your excuse for posting about a subject you just admitted you know fuck all about?
 
SeanH said:
You're the one that follows me around retardo boy, I was just reading the thread, the demorte guy posts interesting stuff. And this is one of A_Js soapboxes, so I wanted to read it. What's your excuse for posting about a subject you just admitted you know fuck all about?
Im a tax payer. You I'm sure are a tax consumer.

Why dont we ask Ulaven if he wishes only those who have read the entire report to be those who can comment.
 
Do you read the FairTax book? I did, and while I don't specifically remember the answer to your question, it was discussed quite a bit in the book. I won't go into what I do remember, since your obviously wanting fact only info, and I don't care to make a mistake and be derided by you.

The book is currently in storage, and by the time I dig it out this thread will be long gone. Pity, though.
 
pipercatt said:
Do you read the FairTax book? I did, and while I don't specifically remember the answer to your question, it was discussed quite a bit in the book. I won't go into what I do remember, since your obviously wanting fact only info, and I don't care to make a mistake and be derided by you.

The book is currently in storage, and by the time I dig it out this thread will be long gone. Pity, though.

Dig it out. I'd be interested to hear exactly how they plan to combat this particular problem not only in the housing industry, but the auto industry and any other retail industry where used materials will be bought and sold.

When you finish with that question, look up the others I posted at the bginning of the thread.
 
MakersandIce said:

While those two Do answer questions about Fairtax and income tax deductions which will no longer apply and that $150,000 home refered to in #24 under the fair tax will cost $195,000 after the 30-31% tax exclusive boost from the Federal sales tax. Work the numbers on a $150,000 home at 8% and 195,000 home at 6%. Though a 2% decrease in mortgage rates is a bit optimistic.

But, they still don't address the issue of new homes cost going up substantially and the problems that will cause the housing industry.
 
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Ulaven_Demorte said:
But, they still don't address the issue of new homes cost going up substantially and the problems that will cause the housing industry.
New homes cost more than used homes now..........is that causing a problem in hew home construction?

Besides, people will be spending untaxed dollars on their homes.

Besides#2, if it does slow down the construction business, maybe some of the illegals will head back south.

Besides#3 a reply to another thread: https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=17487082&postcount=13
 
Using an amortization calculator found here ; http://www.century21.com/learn/calculators/amortization.aspx

a 195,000 home loan at 6% for 30 years, monthly payment: $1169.12 / month

$150,000 home at 8% for 30 years, month payment: $1100.65 / month


So, even if the mortgage rate drops by 2%, which is generous, the new house still costs more than before. $24,649.20 more.

Now a used house, not subject to the sales tax, If the interest rate dropped 2% would be cheaper.

$150,000 home (no tax) at 6% for 30 years, monthly payment: $899.33

Riddle me this, if you can get a comparable home for $97,124.40 LESS than a new home. Which are you going to buy?
 
Assuming that the concept of a 23% "hidden" tax on everything is correct, this plan will mean we will be paying quite a bit more for consumer goods.

What percentage of US consumer goods are manufactured overseas... 75% perhaps? There is absolutely no reason that a foreign manufacturer will reduce the price of his goods by 23%.

Will a 23% cost reduction offered by a US company create more of an incentive for comapnies to open plants here? The answer is NO. Without even discussing labor costs, insurance, unions, etc, the cost difference between manufacturing a product in the US vs. China is far great than 23%.

For instance, I can definitively speak of full color printed matter. I can have something printed at a mid size printer in Hong Kong for 40% less than the most competitve US priniter. If the US printer removes this 23% "hidden tax" I am still going overseas. And this is a consumer product which is almost fully automated.

If I examine printed matter which is labor intensive - pop up and lift-the-flap books, which have a lot on inserting done by hand - the savings to go overseas (where frankly children do this sort of work) is more like 70%.

So for imported goods, again the bulk of our consumer products, the 23% savings would essentially go into affect once the product hits the port. If you have a distributor picking up the goods after clearance I suppose he coupld lower his cut.

More and more though, the large specialty retail chains have gotten savvy and import their own merchandise (or purchase FOB Hong Kong et al from their vendors). How are they saving on merchandise which is going to remain at the same cost regardless? If you say that there is 23% built in to a typcial item after it has been "stepped on" by various companies from manufacturer to distributor to wholesaler to retail, where is the 23% when it goes directly from China to the retail shelves... frieght costs and what elese?
 
MakersandIce said:
New homes cost more than used homes now..........is that causing a problem in hew home construction?

Besides, people will be spending untaxed dollars on their homes.

Besides#2, if it does slow down the construction business, maybe some of the illegals will head back south.

Besides#3 a reply to another thread: https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=17487082&postcount=13

We're not comparing apples and oranges here. Both $150,000 homes, one "used" and one new. Except the NEW $150,000 home now costs 30% more due to Fairtax.

This scenario isn't limited to just the housing industry, we're talking all merchandise that can be bought new or used. the prices will level out, yes, likely by the prices of used homes also rising, new construction costs aren't going to drop. Homeowners selling used homes will sell for what the market will bear.
 
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