"A fever for war."

[shereads]

Bob Woodward can't be accused by the White House of having written this as a vendetta against Bush/Cheney. They made him the ultimate insider when they invited him to document this presidency from the inside. He's on Meet the Press right now, saying he's embarrassed that he failed to stress the Saudis' influence on the decision to to go war in Iraq.

"'It's cheap,' the Saudis were telling the president. 'You give people three months' salary and that will secure the country.'"

The saddest personal story here is Colin Powell's. He warned the president repeatedly against going to war on what he believed to be sham evidence, but went before the U.N. to present the lies as if they were facts.

Months before his U.N. appearance to "prove" the existence of WMD, Powell had told the president in a War Room meeting (where Woodward was present by invitation), "You will own a country. You will own the hopes and dreams and aspirations of 25 million people."

He told Woodward privately that Dick Cheney had "a fever for war."

Note: Woodward says the Saudis promised the president that they would assist him politically by keeping oil prices low before the November election.

 

[Sabledrake]

And all this time I thought it went 'feed a cold, starve a fever.'

Sabledrake

 

[Colleen Thomas]

War is sometimes seen as a panacea for a lot of things by politicians. It seems that the human toll is often sublimated to the political realities. War is sometimes neccessary. We all hope that it is the last resort, but sometimes it dosen't work that way.

War has been called the continuation of diplomacy by other methods. A simple sentence with a lot of implcation.

-Colly

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I'm afraid that Iraq is about to explode. They're playing it down, but the situation in Fallujah is extremely tense, and the people have refused to accede to the US's demands that they turn in their heavy weapons. They seem to be hunkered down and ready to fight. The situation is so bad that Bush has been in contact with the head of US forces in Iraq on a daily basis.

If the marines meet resistance in Fallujah, it'll probably degenerate into full scale guerilla warfare in the city, with house-to-house fighting with civilians caught in the middle. At this point though I don't see how either side can back down.

In a recent speech, Hosni Mubarrak told how Arab hatred for the USA has hit an all time high, based on the invasion and ocupation of Iraq.

I'm afraid we're in for some truly nasty weather.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

War is sometimes neccessary. We all hope that it is the last resort, but sometimes it dosen't work that way.

"We went to war for something that doesn't exist. The White House is in shock."
~ Bob Woodward

When oil prices drop in late October/early November, we'll have more substantial proof that this was a war in service of the energy industry than we had of any threat to the U.S. by Saddam Hussein.

George W. Bush allowed himself to be used, and he knew better. "If this is all we have," he said of the evidence on WMD, "Joe Public isn't going to buy it."

He sold it, very effectively, even though he didnt entirely believe it himself. His arrogance and stupidity have taken the world down a road that has no positive end.

 

[shereads]

In a recent speech, Hosni Mubarrak told how Arab hatred for the USA has hit an all time high, based on the invasion and ocupation of Iraq.

And that, as you and others pointed out in this forum a year ago, was the purpose of the 9/ll attacks. Powell knew it. Cheney must have known it, but didn't care, because he saw the chance to achieve the neo-con goal of establishing a colonial gov't on top of the oil fields. Bush alone didn't get it, until it was too late. He took the bait against the advice of his Secretary of State, and now he has to rationalize this disaster by pretending that it's God's Will.

 

[neonlyte]

In a recent speech, Hosni Mubarrak told how Arab hatred for the USA has hit an all time high, based on the invasion and ocupation of Iraq.

I'm afraid we're in for some truly nasty weather.

---dr.M.

Agreed.

What is happening over oil, I regard Iraq as an 'oil war', has immense worldwide implications. The US rift with Arabic states may see a return to 1970's oil price hikes. Is the US going to stand by whilst oil prices quadrupal, it cannot, it has to trade it's way in the world, the competive margins in manufacturing are under attack, oil price hikes will cripple US manufacturing.

You can't exactly attack oilfields to achieve control of the oil, not without the risk of disrupting flow. So you have two choices:
- take over the country
- use diplomacy

The US has made 'fucking up diplomacy', in the oil producing world, an Olympic sport, the kind of effort required to redress the balance is not within the grasp of the US, unless it is humbled by fanatics who are daily being given the incentive and ideology to achieve their goal.

My nightmare, option 1 - take over the country,
if you take one, you better be damn sure you can take the rest.

NL

 

[Guest]

This seems a good place for this. Perdita

This column by Art Hoppe was published in The Chronicle on March 5, 1971; he said it attracted more letters than any other column he wrote. Hoppe died Feb. 1, 2000.

TO ROOT AGAINST YOUR COUNTRY - Arthur Hoppe

The radio this morning said the Allied invasion of Laos had bogged down. Without thinking, I nodded and said, "Good."

And having said it, I realized the bitter truth: Now I root against my own country.

This is how far we have come in this hated and endless war. This is the nadir I have reached in this winter of my discontent. This is how close I border on treason:

Now I root against my own country.

How frighteningly sad this is. My generation was raised to love our country and we loved it unthinkingly. We licked Hitler and Tojo and Mussolini. Those were our shining hours. Those were our days of faith.

They were evil; we were good. They told lies; we spoke the truth. Our cause was just, our purposes noble, and in victory we were magnanimous. What a wonderful country we are! I loved it so.

But now, having descended down the torturous, brutalizing years of this bloody war, I have come to the dank and lightless bottom of the well: I have come to root against the country that once I blindly loved.

I can rationalize it. I can say that if the invasion of Laos succeeds, the chimera of victory will dance once again before our eyes -- leading us once again into more years of mindless slaughter. Thus, I can say, I hope the invasion fails.

But it is more than that. It is that I have come to hate my country's role in Vietnam.

I hate the massacres, the body counts, the free fire zones, the napalming of civilians, the poisoning of rice crops. I hate being part of My Lai. I hate the fact that we have now dropped more explosives on these scrawny Asian peasants than we did on all our enemies in World War II.

And I hate my leaders, who, over the years, have conscripted our young men and sent them there to kill or be killed in a senseless cause simply because they can find no honorable way out -- no honorable way out for them.

I don't root for the enemy. I doubt they are any better than we. I don't give a damn anymore who wins the day. But because I hate what my country is doing in Vietnam, I emotionally and often irrationally hope that it fails.

It is a terrible thing to root against your own country. If I were alone, it wouldn't matter. But I don't think I am alone. I think many Americans must feel these same sickening emotions I feel. I think they share my guilt. I think they share my rage.

If this is true, we must end this war now -- in defeat, if necessary. We must end it because all of Southeast Asia is not worth the hatred, shame, guilt and rage that is tearing Americans apart. We must end it not for those among our young who have come to hate America, but for those who somehow manage to love it still.

I doubt that I can ever again love my country in that unthinking way that I did when I was young. Perhaps this is a good thing.

But I would hope the day will come when I can once again believe what my country says and once again approve of what it does. I want to have faith once more in the justness of my country's causes and the nobleness of its ideals.

What I want so very much is to be able once again to root for my own, my native land.

 

[rgraham666]

Perdita, the column you posted made me think of On Civil Disobedience by Thoreau.

He spoke of three types of people; those who serve the nation with their bodies, those who serve it with their minds, and those who serve with their ethics.

Those who serve with their ethics are usually "ajudged enemies" by the State.

But I regard it as a higher form of patriotism to oppose your country when you believe they are wrong.

 

[shereads]

This seems a good place for this. Perdita

This column by Art Hoppe was published in The Chronicle on March 5, 1971; he said it attracted more letters than any other column he wrote. Hoppe died Feb. 1, 2000.

TO ROOT AGAINST YOUR COUNTRY - Arthur Hoppe

The radio this morning said the Allied invasion of Laos had bogged down. Without thinking, I nodded and said, "Good."

And having said it, I realized the bitter truth: Now I root against my own country.

This is how far we have come in this hated and endless war. This is the nadir I have reached in this winter of my discontent. This is how close I border on treason:

Now I root against my own country.

How frighteningly sad this is. My generation was raised to love our country and we loved it unthinkingly. We licked Hitler and Tojo and Mussolini. Those were our shining hours. Those were our days of faith.

They were evil; we were good. They told lies; we spoke the truth. Our cause was just, our purposes noble, and in victory we were magnanimous. What a wonderful country we are! I loved it so.

But now, having descended down the torturous, brutalizing years of this bloody war, I have come to the dank and lightless bottom of the well: I have come to root against the country that once I blindly loved.

I can rationalize it. I can say that if the invasion of Laos succeeds, the chimera of victory will dance once again before our eyes -- leading us once again into more years of mindless slaughter. Thus, I can say, I hope the invasion fails.

But it is more than that. It is that I have come to hate my country's role in Vietnam.

I hate the massacres, the body counts, the free fire zones, the napalming of civilians, the poisoning of rice crops. I hate being part of My Lai. I hate the fact that we have now dropped more explosives on these scrawny Asian peasants than we did on all our enemies in World War II.

And I hate my leaders, who, over the years, have conscripted our young men and sent them there to kill or be killed in a senseless cause simply because they can find no honorable way out -- no honorable way out for them.

I don't root for the enemy. I doubt they are any better than we. I don't give a damn anymore who wins the day. But because I hate what my country is doing in Vietnam, I emotionally and often irrationally hope that it fails.

It is a terrible thing to root against your own country. If I were alone, it wouldn't matter. But I don't think I am alone. I think many Americans must feel these same sickening emotions I feel. I think they share my guilt. I think they share my rage.

If this is true, we must end this war now -- in defeat, if necessary. We must end it because all of Southeast Asia is not worth the hatred, shame, guilt and rage that is tearing Americans apart. We must end it not for those among our young who have come to hate America, but for those who somehow manage to love it still.

I doubt that I can ever again love my country in that unthinking way that I did when I was young. Perhaps this is a good thing.

But I would hope the day will come when I can once again believe what my country says and once again approve of what it does. I want to have faith once more in the justness of my country's causes and the nobleness of its ideals.

What I want so very much is to be able once again to root for my own, my native land.

Perdita, thank you. This expresses so well something that has been so hard to express. On the day when "Shock & Awe" debuted on prime time television, I felt so ashamed. The networks were on the with-us-or-against-us bandwagon and treated coverage of the bombing as if it were a sports event. Someone was "huddling with Tommy Franks" to talk about next steps; imbedded journalists were feeding us a good, close look at everything except the dead. We were exacting vengeance for 9/ll on people who had nothing to do with it.

I was a kid during the worst of Vietnam, and I'll never forget the guilt I felt when I realized that I was alone in my family and most of my community in believing we had no right to be there. It was the first time I became aware that I could feel anything except pride in my country, and it was an awful feeling. It was shame.

How much worse must that awareness have been for John Kerry, who had taken part in the event itself. How much courage did it take to go public with those feelings, knowing he risked alienating the people he'd fought alongside.

When you believe with all your being that your country is in the wrong, and that the consequences are likely to be horrific and far-reaching, what are the moral choices?

To be a good solider, as Colin Powell was on the president's behalf, lying to America and the world to justify a war he knew would be disastrous?

To be silent?

 

[ABSTRUSE]

After reading Perdita's article you stop and think a little bit about the person who is doing the actual fighting and who mans the controls.
I do not think for one moment I would be able to be in combat or fight someone I do not have a personal grudge against.
To know that you are a pawn in someones war games must be difficult at best.

~A~

 

[rgraham666]

Abtruse? The correct term for people like Shrub the Second is remf.

Remf is an acronym for Rear Echelon Mother Fucker.

The term originated during the Vietnam War among the grunts who had to do the actual dying. While the remfs stayed nice and safe in their air conditioned offices in Saigon or D.C.

In the words of H. Beam Piper, "the species is quite common and widely distributed."