A dom's opinion on "bondage by will"

[PatPowers]

(Note: I understand that there's nothing gender-specific about bondage by will. I've written this post in terms of Mf because that comes natural to me, but in doing so I don't mean to exclude anyone who wants to respond in terms of Fm or Mm or Ff.)

I have always been somewhat suspicious about bondage "by the master's will," where the slavegirl must hold her body as if bound, but without any actual bonds. Yes, it's true, the slavegirl is being more obedient than ever because her will is aligned with her master's will in keeping her bound.

But in another, much more accurate sense, it's bullshit. A slavegirl who is bound "by her master's will" can free herself at any moment. Even if she never makes that choice, never chooses to free herself while bound "by will" she nevertheless has that choice at all times. A slavegirl however who has had her wrists and ankles tied or chained by her master, who has felt a gag being tied our strapped or even locked into place on her, has no choice. She cannot remove her bonds and/or gag, even if she wants to. Her master must do that for her, when he chooses to. Even within the context of most consensual scenes, where instant release is available at the sound of a safeword or the sight of a safe sign, the slavegirl is still essentially petitioning for release -- it devolves upon the master to decide whether or not he will honor the safeword/sign. And even though if he is any kind of worthwhile master, he will always honor a safeword/sign, the key point remains, the decision of whether or not to release the slavegirl is his -- he does not need any assistance from the slavegirl's will.

Thus whenever a slavegirl enters actual, physical bondage she is making a much deeper submission than anything involving "by his will" or, let's call it what it is -- pretend bondage. She has committed herself to actual, physical helplessness, and the feel of actual, physical bonds restraining her body, I believe, accentuate her helplessness as no amount or intensity of pretend bondage can.

And besides, bondage "by will" strikes me as a form of bargaining rather than true submission. It is, "I don't like real physical bondage but I will be very happy to pretend that I am bound, I will hold my body in a position you can bind it into and not change position until you give me release."

I have read posts on this board by people who say that they think bondage "by will" is the cat's meow, but I don't buy it. I'm willing to listen to alternative ideas, however. Could be something out there I don't understand yet. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[NemoAlia]

And besides, bondage "by will" strikes me as a form of bargaining rather than true submission. It is, "I don't like real physical bondage but I will be very happy to pretend that I am bound, I will hold my body in a position you can bind it into and not change position until you give me release."

Haha! I always think of mental bondage as a sign of laziness on the Dom/me's part -- "I don't like having to think about knots and EMT shears and leather cuffs... let's not and say we did!"

I suppose it could theoretically turn me on to have to hold still like I'm tied up, but as a general rule, I far prefer physical bondage. It has a fairly consistent, extremely exciting effect on parts of me that are unmentionable in public.

 

[myinnerslut]

i really like being bound... i love to feel the ropes or handcuffs or whatever it is against me skin, preventing me from moving. i prefer this to being bound "by will", but in my experience, actual bondage and bondage "by will" are very diffrent.

on one memorable occasion, i was told to keep my legs in the air while lying on the bed. what happened while i was being "bound" like that was more of a mental submission then a physical. both my Sir and i knew that i COULD move my legs. the question was, would i? it was much more of a mental task then a physical one. even though my legs were burning from holding the position, i wouldnt disobey the order to keep them there by lowring them (i did at one point have to shift my position in order to keep my legs up in the air).

sorry if this is rambling and/or doesnt make sense. it's 2:25 in the morning.

 

[chris9]

I wouldn't compare actual bondage and bondage 'by will'. I'm with myinnerslut, in my fantasy the last es about obeying, the first about having no choice. I don't have any experience with this, so it's all in my imagination. Being told to keep legs spread while the pussy is spanked, having the possibility to close them and thus end the pain, but obeying, because he wants me to, is a very strong, very hot fantasy to me. Battling my reflexes for him. Not doing what comes natural for me to do.
That's not to say bondage isn't hot either. It's just very different, with different feelings playing. Bondage to me is more along the helplessnes, being at his mercy. Having to hold a position means more to put his will above my instincts, wanting to please him by actively doing what he wants.

 

[the captians wench]

I'm with chris, I don't think the two can really be compaired as they deal with two completely different matters, and if I were to compair them I would say that physical bondage would be much easier than being told " you had better not fucking move". Tie me up and I'm there all day, I don't have to think about it at all, it's just a fact I'm not moving unless some one unties me. But tell me to hold still and I have to work at that, I have to work thru the pain, thru any falling asleep limbs, to do as I'm told. I think this takes a lot more in the long run than being tied up, but it's a different kind of bondage. It tests my will to serve him, rather than my endurance for what ever he's doing to me tho that may play a small role. To me, it would seem the physical is a lot easier to submit to than the mental. But then it's never been presented to me as "act like your arms are tied to the ceiling beam there" it's always been "arms up bitch. Good now if you drop them for one fucking second I'm going to be very upset, and you are going to be punished, understand?" I like both. I'd prefer to be tied up as I like the feel of the bonds, but fuck if I'm moving if he says stay still tied up or not.

 

[ammre]

i've never been bound, just because no one has ever tried. i have been "bound by will" though, and let me tell you, that's tough. You're told not to move and if you have an itch on your noise, well ahh that sucks for you. Some people will crack, some people will not. i've knelt for so long that i've had a hard time standing/walking and i'm not exactly decrepit.

I think they are different beasts as well... A mental idea of servitude, verses a physical restraint... a difference between B/D and D/s i would venture.

 

[ammre]

p.s. if you're curious about mental servitude, be an alter server for a christmas midnight mass, or for a vigil. I was 10 the first time i knealt unmoving for over 20 min. To be the one alterserver who has to scratch their nose in the middle of the candles and stillness, boy you feel like a douschebag. ;\

 

[Gomez130]

Good Morning

 

[PatPowers]

It sounds as if what most of you are saying is that bondage "by will" is not a substitute for bondage but a different thing entirely -- more of a physical test of submission. Really, a variant on being asked to assume a position and hold it for a length of time. That I can understand as a form of submission.

I did like NemoAlia's point about "lazy doms" though. If you're using bondage by will as a substitute for physical bondage, that's slacking, and slacking can go both ways.

I have to admit, I like the bondage so I just might have a bias here. I got a merit badge for knot tying in Boy Scouts and never looked back. Not that I tied up any Boy Scouts. I just remembered the knots REALLY REALLY well as I grew older. (Oh, tautline hitch, what a knot you are!)

 

[chris9]

It sounds as if what most of you are saying is that bondage "by will" is not a substitute for bondage but a different thing entirely -- more of a physical test of submission. Really, a variant on being asked to assume a position and hold it for a length of time. That I can understand as a form of submission.

I did like NemoAlia's point about "lazy doms" though. If you're using bondage by will as a substitute for physical bondage, that's slacking, and slacking can go both ways.

I have to admit, I like the bondage so I just might have a bias here. I got a merit badge for knot tying in Boy Scouts and never looked back. Not that I tied up any Boy Scouts. I just remembered the knots REALLY REALLY well as I grew older. (Oh, tautline hitch, what a knot you are!)

I would not even call it a variant on being asked to assume and hold a position, but exactly that.
To me it sounds like if someone (no matter if PYL or pyl) uses it as a substitute for bondage they have not understood something major about it. This doesn't mean that they are missing something. You can compare it to two different kinks. If I like watersports I don't necessarily like spankings. If I like bondage I don't necessarily like mental bondage.
Personally I believe I would like both. With bondage I'm actually sure I do, the mental stuff I have not tried yet.

 

[Caitlynne]

I agree with a few others. The two are not about the same thing IMHO. One is about 'having absolutley no control' and the other is about 'obedience'.

Both have their uses to a Dominant. I suppose the choice made in the situation depends on what would please him in that moment.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

"Bondage" vs "Mental Bondage"

Kinda like comparing "grapes vs brocolli" in my book. Ammre said it quite well, it's the difference between Bondage/Discipline (a physical aspect) and Dominance/submission (a mental/emotional aspect).

And consider this: Which is actually submitting? Submiting in this case meaning "obedience to the will of another." The bondage slut who gets all tied up because it makes her hot and horney? Or the slave who strikes a position dictated by the owner, who struggles to maintain that position as fatigue and pain set in? Who has to remain focussed? Who has to have the mind to obey?

In the examples above I would say that both were submitting. Yes, the bondage slut is submitting to the will of her owner, but she's consented to the bondage because she gets off on it. On the other hand, the slave who submits in obedience is doing so for the satisfaction that obedience brings, not for the physical gratification of their gonads.

One is not better than the other, they just meet different physical, emotional, or spiritual needs. No one HAS to use one or the other (or both) kinds of bondage. It's a choice made between partners, what works in some cases may not work in others.

 

[ammre]

*smiles, nods and points to Evil_Geoff's post*

 

[babiesmiles]

I like ropes and I love to be bound .

Master lately tried some Shibari on me . He is very skilled in that and although it was my first time with that it was an amazing experience and I can't wait to repeat it !

 

[myinnerslut]

I like ropes and I love to be bound .

Master lately tried some Shibari on me . He is very skilled in that and although it was my first time with that it was an amazing experience and I can't wait to repeat it !

lucky you!!!

that kind of bondage has been something that has turned me on in the past from pictures and discribtions.... i cant wait untill the situataion comes up when ill get to experience it

 

[Ebonyfire]

Whatever...

I say that if you put a price on obedience, like I do, if you tell the submissive or slave not to move, and they do not, then they have showed obdience. It is just another tool in the arsenal of the dominant.

As for it being BS, that is a valid opinion. If you think it is BS, do not use it. It is that simple.

I use whatever that strikes my fancy at any given time. If others do not like what I use, that is cool. But it does not change my world.

Different strokes for different folks. There are thousands of ways to do what we do, so it's all good in my book.

EB

 

[Betticus]

I am reminded of that old HBO special on prisons and life in prison. The interviewer was talking to a convict who was the leader of one of the black gangs and asked him what he thought about when a brand new prisoner, a first timer gets locked up in his part of the prison. The convict said that the new prisoner already owes him, because the gang will take him in and protect him from the rivals and teach him how to survive there. The interviewer asked what the newbie would "owe" him. The convict said "I makes him eat my ass, sometimes I let him use syrup or jelly". The interviewer was surprised and asked why he did this and the reply was "Because when a man is sucking your cock he can pretend that he's doing something else but when he's eating your ass he knows that he's eating ass".

I know it's crude but it makes a point that can be used to describe the difference between physical and mental bondage.

When a girl is tied securely, bound, gagged, etc.. her choice is taken away and she can retain a measure of control, mentally. When she is given an order and obeys without the physical crutch then no part of her can really deny the fact that she has submitted herself to the will of another.

In my own opinion the physical bondage is more for fun and the mental is more for the establishment of dominance.

On a very light level a form of mental domination can be simply telling her to kiss you. A little comfortable reminder here and there that she is mine.

 

[myinnerslut]

On a very light level a form of mental domination can be simply telling her to kiss you. A little comfortable reminder here and there that she is mine.

i like that idea

 

[PatPowers]

"And consider this: Which is actually submitting? Submiting in this case meaning "obedience to the will of another." The bondage slut who gets all tied up because it makes her hot and horney? Or the slave who strikes a position dictated by the owner, who struggles to maintain that position as fatigue and pain set in? Who has to remain focussed? Who has to have the mind to obey?

Well, actually, I'm all about cranking up the horny slut to the max, not making her go through some boring and painful trial to show she really, truly submits to me. Now, if THAT'S what turns her on, yeah, I'm all about "Assume the position, baby." If at the end of it she feels all submissive and ready for some more specifically sexual submission, that's a good thing. But I'm not interested in trials just for the sake of a trial.

In the examples above I would say that both were submitting. Yes, the bondage slut is submitting to the will of her owner, but she's consented to the bondage because she gets off on it. On the other hand, the slave who submits in obedience is doing so for the satisfaction that obedience brings, not for the physical gratification of their gonads.

Oh, I'm way more into that whole "physical gratification of her gonads" thing. And my gonads, mustn't forget MY gonads! To me, bondage and dominance is a way to crank sex and sexuality up in ways that just aren't possible through vanilla sex.

One is not better than the other, they just meet different physical, emotional, or spiritual needs. No one HAS to use one or the other (or both) kinds of bondage. It's a choice made between partners, what works in some cases may not work in others.

I'll buy that.

 

[kiten69]

I am reminded of that old HBO special on prisons and life in prison. The interviewer was talking to a convict who was the leader of one of the black gangs and asked him what he thought about when a brand new prisoner, a first timer gets locked up in his part of the prison. The convict said that the new prisoner already owes him, because the gang will take him in and protect him from the rivals and teach him how to survive there. The interviewer asked what the newbie would "owe" him. The convict said "I makes him eat my ass, sometimes I let him use syrup or jelly". The interviewer was surprised and asked why he did this and the reply was "Because when a man is sucking your cock he can pretend that he's doing something else but when he's eating your ass he knows that he's eating ass".

I know it's crude but it makes a point that can be used to describe the difference between physical and mental bondage.

When a girl is tied securely, bound, gagged, etc.. her choice is taken away and she can retain a measure of control, mentally. When she is given an order and obeys without the physical crutch then no part of her can really deny the fact that she has submitted herself to the will of another.

In my own opinion the physical bondage is more for fun and the mental is more for the establishment of dominance.

On a very light level a form of mental domination can be simply telling her to kiss you. A little comfortable reminder here and there that she is mine.

Even tho the "eating ass" thing is kinda crude it does make a good point... very well said dear Bett

 

[Etoile]

This is a cafe topic? I think it's very much a talk topic.

It sounds as if what most of you are saying is that bondage "by will" is not a substitute for bondage but a different thing entirely -- more of a physical test of submission. Really, a variant on being asked to assume a position and hold it for a length of time. That I can understand as a form of submission.

I agree with the other posters about this. Your original post makes it sound like the focus is on pretending to be bound - it's not. The focus is on doing as told. They can both be about the physical, in that being bound is to restrict movement and holding a pose/doing as told is to test stamina, but they have very different purposes.