A changed Kitten

[Stella_Omega]

All of my ferals became more trusting and affectionate after they were fixed.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Absolutely NO!

Here is what I would ask my Lit friends: If you acquire a new cat, especially a kitten, do not allow it to be an "outside cat." Also, if any of your friends or family acquire a cat, ask them to do the same.

If a cat never goes outside, it doesn't know what it's missing, so it's much better if you never let it get a taste of that 'good life.' It is probably best to have two cats with this regime - they entertain each other, stalk and pounce on each other, etc.

And I say to you if you want a cat who will never go outside, go to the toyshop and buy a stuffed toy. You absolutely don't have - in my opinion - the right to imprison another living being for life.

 

[SimonBrooke]

Yes, I know.

Do you think you have the right to cause the death of hundreds and possibly thousands of birds and small mammals each year?

The Effects of Cat Predation on Wildlife
from the USFWS Migratory Bird Mangement Office

Americans keep an estimated 60 million cats as pets. Let's say each cat kills only one bird a year. That would mean that cats kill over 60 million birds (minimum) each year - more wildlife than any oil spill.

Scientific studies actually show that each year, cats kill hundreds of millions of migratory songbirds. In 1990, researchers estimated that "outdoor" house cats and feral cats were responsible for killing nearly 78 million small mammals and birds annually in the United Kingdom.

Yes. My last cat, who died last year at the age of 19, used in her youth to bring in one rabbit every morning, and in her middle aged I once observed catch and kill eighteen mice in the garden in one day. They are exceedingly effective predators. If you don't like that, don't keep cats.

Feline predation is not "natural." Cats were domesticated by the ancient Egyptians and taken throughout the world by the Romans. Cats were brought to North America in the 1800's to control rats. The "tabby" that sits curled up on your couch is not a natural predator and has never been in the natural food chain in the Western Hemisphere.

That's simply untrue. Cats are native to all of northern Europe and specifically to Scotland. If human beings had never domesticated cats, there would nevertheless be cats here - just as there are stoats and pine-martens and foxes. Predation is part of the natural cycle; the fact that my cats can kill 18 mice in a day in my garden, and keep killing mice year after year in a garden which has always had cats at least in my lifetime, is an indicator that the population of mice in my garden is sufficient to sustain that level of predation.

Cats are a serious threat to fledglings, birds roosting at night and birds on a nest. Research shows that de-clawing cats and bell collars do not prevent them from killing birds and other small animals. For healthy cats and wild birds, cats should not be allowed to roam free.

If you don't want cats roaming free, don't keep cats. Keeping a cat imprisoned is inhumane.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

And I say to you if you want a cat who will never go outside, go to the toyshop and buy a stuffed toy. You absolutely don't have - in my opinion - the right to imprison another living being for life.

So we disagree.

In my view your actions are imposing a cost on nature and the environment that you do not have the right to impose. That cost is an objective fact. Your opinion about the quality of life of indoor cats is just that - subjective opinion. You have a right to it, and if it's what you think then you're right - you shouldn't keep cats.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm in between the two of you.

SimonBrooke, you have to understand that the issue in the U.S- in many areas, at least- is that we have far, FAR too many cats- and dogs- running wild. We are an over-populated country to begin with, and we are, unfortunately, rather self-serving in our desires. We tend to get kittens and dump cats, we get baby bunnies at Easer time and dump them after the kids have gotten bored with taking care of them, we over-breed our dogs. In the U.S, we are truly talking about 60 million cats. And in this country, cats are NOT native.

You have- you say- ONE cat. I am caring for a feral colony of ten, plus four peripatetic toms, when their travels intersect my gang's territory. I trap and neuter as I am able, but I've had one little queen who's had babies three times now, losing all of them, except for this last time when she was able to raise one single little prince (who is very tame)

My three domestics are lousy predators, and the ferals are decent ones. But these are not the only ferals in my area, I know I see cats all over my hill. we really have more cats than the environment can handle, without my artificial input of bowls of food once a day.

Roxanne, in SimonBrooke's area, cats really are native, and she (?) lives in a less congested area. She lives in Scotland, not in the U.S.

 

[glynndah]

My two indoor cats can go outside if they really want to. The doors are held open for them in the warmer months. They are no desire to go out. If the lure of the open door compels them, a quick trip around the house to the nearest door and they're scratching to get back in. Keeping a cat indoors isn't cruel.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne, in SimonBrooke's area, cats really are native, and she (?) lives in a less congested area. She lives in Scotland, not in the U.S.

Stella, the "native/non-native" thing is a canard, I believe, at least for purposes of this discussion. We're not talking about the wild kingdom, here, but about spoiled little house tabbies taking a little R&R by engaging in random and purposeless slaughter.

If it were a pride of completely feral cats surviving on their own without any any sort of food and shelter "subsidy" from humankind, then there probably would be nothing for me to complain about. Their numbers and environmental impact in a place like Scotland would be limited by climate and the ecological balance that constrains every other species. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they were unable to survive at all in such circumstances.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Stella, the "native/non-native" thing is a canard, I believe, at least for purposes of this discussion. We're not talking about the wild kingdom, here, but about spoiled little house tabbies taking a little R&R by engaging in random and purposeless slaughter.

If it were a pride of completely feral cats surviving on their own without any any sort of food and shelter "subsidy" from humankind, then there probably would be nothing for me to complain about. Their numbers and environmental impact in a place like Scotland would be limited by climate and the ecological balance that constrains every other species. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they were unable to survive at all in such circumstances.

"spoiled little house tabbies" are still cats. And the cats of Scotland are direct descendants of the cats of Scotland, as far as I know... We might be able to spoil some individuals untill they have forgotten how to hunt at all, but all cats are predators, period. That's why we love them- the behaviors that a predator exhibits are endearing to us, when writ small.

You would never be able to convince a cat that its killing was purposeless. Cats have short guts, which sacrifice the ability to extract every last bit of nutrition- in order to remain light and lithe for hunting. ALL cats are positive that they are a moment away from starvation, even those twenty-five-pounders. Killing is what they do.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

"spoiled little house tabbies" are still cats. And the cats of Scotland are direct descendants of the cats of Scotland, as far as I know... We might be able to spoil some individuals untill they have forgotten how to hunt at all, but all cats are predators, period. That's why we love them- the behaviors that a predator exhibits are endearing to us, when writ small.

You would never be able to convince a cat that its killing was purposeless. Cats have short guts, which sacrifice the ability to extract every last bit of nutrition- in order to remain light and lithe for hunting. ALL cats are positive that they are a moment away from starvation, even those twenty-five-pounders. Killing is what they do.

Of course, and that's why my beef is not with the cats, but with the humans.

To repeat what I said in an earlier post, I won't ask people to try to teach old cats new tricks, specifically, how to be an exclusively "indoor cat," after having always lived as an "indoor/outdoor" cat. Instead, I ask my AH friends that when they acquire a new cat, especially a kitten, they resolve to never let it out of the house, where, as you point out, it will almost inevitably become a killer of birds and small mammals. Also, to ask your friends and family members to do the same.

And I don't want to condemn anyone either, because what I'm taking about is a new ethic. But it is a bit irksome when the response to regrets expressed over the indiscriminate slaughter of woodland creatures by an individual's cat is, "Tough - that's what cats do." (I don't mean you, Stella.)

I would much rather someone say, "Hmmm, I never thought about that, but it is kind of a bummer, now that you mention it. It's too late for Muffy, because she would just die if she couldn't go out anymore, but maybe any future cats . . ."

 

[cantdog]

Stella, the "native/non-native" thing is a canard, I believe, at least for purposes of this discussion. We're not talking about the wild kingdom, here, but about spoiled little house tabbies taking a little R&R by engaging in random and purposeless slaughter.

If it were a pride of completely feral cats surviving on their own without any any sort of food and shelter "subsidy" from humankind, then there probably would be nothing for me to complain about. Their numbers and environmental impact in a place like Scotland would be limited by climate and the ecological balance that constrains every other species. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they were unable to survive at all in such circumstances.

There are several dozen feral cats living on the campus of the former Mental Health Hospital. They are very well studied cats, actually. Underground steam pipes run between buildings, and they gather atop them through the winter and haunt the kitchen middens behind the big institutional kitchen, which attracts prey animals. They are organized, as it turns out, in sister-groups, like lions' prides.

They have generated several learned papers from biology grad students!

And this is Maine. More winter sunlight than Scotland, but lousier climate.

 

[cantdog]

It's pointless to pine for the days when only 'native' species lived in a given space.

Our native cats are lynx and bobcat, but not now.

 

[SeaCat]

It's pointless to pine for the days when only 'native' species lived in a given space.

Our native cats are lynx and bobcat, but not now.

Ahhh and how I would love to find a Lynx Kitten. One without it's mother and to young to have been weaned.

With the proper care it would be the perfect house cat.

Felines are extremely intelligent. They learn easily.

Cat

 

[Guest]

Ahhh and how I would love to find a Lynx Kitten. One without it's mother and to young to have been weaned.

With the proper care it would be the perfect house cat.

Felines are extremely intelligent. They learn easily.

Cat

That sounds dangerous, Cat. Wild animals are still just that.

You'd probably have to have it declawed - kitty wouldn't know its own strength - and that would be sad.

But speaking of that, I've always wanted a Tiger as a pet.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/sweetsubsarahh/tiger.jpg

 

[Guest]

This is my tiger now - smaller version, still a major league animal.

We found him at a farm as a kitten, he imprinted on me on the way home, and he believes he and I are married. He is an incredible hunter.

We used to let him out on the balcony at our college apartment to sun and take in the fresh air. He never went anywhere else, stayed there on the chairs, just slept and smiled.

We had to stop that after we watched him take down a big blackbird in flight. I thought he was going to go over the edge of the railing, but instead he came down with the bird. Then he plucked it furiously before eating.

Impressive - and scary.

We built the outdoor kitty enclosure for him, but the others enjoy it, too.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/sweetsubsarahh/MVC-002S_edited.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/sweetsubsarahh/MVC-001S_edited.jpg

 

[Stella_Omega]

Of course, and that's why my beef is not with the cats, but with the humans.

To repeat what I said in an earlier post, I won't ask people to try to teach old cats new tricks, specifically, how to be an exclusively "indoor cat," after having always lived as an "indoor/outdoor" cat. Instead, I ask my AH friends that when they acquire a new cat, especially a kitten, they resolve to never let it out of the house, where, as you point out, it will almost inevitably become a killer of birds and small mammals. Also, to ask your friends and family members to do the same.[/qoute]how did I miss that post? I did! I'm sorry, that led to some misunderstanding on my part, for sure.[quote

And I don't want to condemn anyone either, because what I'm taking about is a new ethic. But it is a bit irksome when the response to regrets expressed over the indiscriminate slaughter of woodland creatures by an individual's cat is, "Tough - that's what cats do." (I don't mean you, Stella.)

I would much rather someone say, "Hmmm, I never thought about that, but it is kind of a bummer, now that you mention it. It's too late for Muffy, because she would just die if she couldn't go out anymore, but maybe any future cats . . ."

I agree- it's not "tough, that's what cat's do" but- that an overpopulation of cats will lead to overhunting, just like any other population of predators. In Chicago, (I digress), there are "Owl winters" when people find dead ones on the snow. What happens is that there had beena surge in the vole population the previous summer, and the owls lay more eggs that year- and then the voles crash, and the resulting owl surplus dies. It's a vicious but, unfortunately, entirely natural seesaw..

(that had little to do with the subject, but it's interesting)

And it doesn't have to bo

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I agree- it's not "tough, that's what cat's do" but- that an overpopulation of cats will lead to overhunting, just like any other population of predators. In Chicago, (I digress), there are "Owl winters" when people find dead ones on the snow. What happens is that there had beena surge in the vole population the previous summer, and the owls lay more eggs that year- and then the voles crash, and the resulting owl surplus dies. It's a vicious but, unfortunately, entirely natural seesaw..

(that had little to do with the subject, but it's interesting)

And it doesn't have to be

Yes, that's the environmental impact aspect. But in addition to that, there's the ethical issue, which applies even in the case of one housecat killing just one bird. The little birdie is living without any "subsidy" from humans, all by itself, on sheer grit. When it's killled by the housecat it's not a part of any natural ecological cycle, it's just gratuitous killing for killing's sake.

I imagine that little birdie has just flown 3,000 miles from Costa Rica in the spring. It's exhausted and starving, hanging on by it's little claws until the Northern food source kicks in. It alights in your lawn and WHAM! - fat-cat muffy, taking a little R&R between her third bowl of tuna and fourth nap of the day, snuffs out that feeble flame just for the fun of it, because "that's what cats do." Yes it is, and the cat can't be blamed, but a human who enables and countenances it in such circumstances is making an unethical choice.

Oh dear, it is hard to read that as anything other than a condemnation of my friends, beginning with one who agrees with with me in the quoted post. But - that's what I think . . . However, it's not the most 'salient' issue in my world, either.

 

[SeaCat]

It's kind of funny reading the accusations of cruelty to the cats by keeping them inside. I have been officialy accused of this by one of my neighbors. I had a knock on the door and the town Animal Control standing there.

They inspected my place and could only shake their heads. As they told me they couldn't tell there were six cats living in the place when they walked in. No smell.

They met and checked the cats. They found them to be in perfect health and showing no signs of neglect or abuse.

The reason behind the complaint? One of my neighbors, who has lost three cats in three years to cars wanted one of our cats. I refused. She then accused me of being cruel to my cats for not letting them out. (Even though her own cats, which she let run free were all dead.)

The only times I could possibly be called cruel are when I find a cat at the side of the road and put it out of it's misery. (Yes this happens more often than I care to think about.) If I think it is viable I pick it up and transpot it to one of the shelters. If I think it is too badly injured, which is more often than not I put it out of it's misery.

Cat