A ‘Writerly’ question for creators of serious fiction…

[amicus]

I am going to nibble at this as an introduction, rather in the way of a seduction, or foreplay, if you will permit me.

When ever and why ever , it come to mind to create a story, a fabrication of life, perhaps based on a specific person or fantasy, or upon and idea a whim, a ‘what if’, what ever it is that inspires you to put word to paper or screen and begin to fashion characters, plots, thoughts and actions, I wish to explore, intimately, the process by which one does so.

As this is Literotica, you might properly suspect my inquiry has something to do with the writing of sex scenes and indeed it does; but still I wish to cuddle up to the idea rather than pounce upon it.

When I first began writing fictional stories it was about action and adventure; plot and character, striving to achieve, facing danger, overcoming fear and self doubt within the makeup of the character and the circumstances.

But the, ’there is always the girl’, came to mind and for you lady writers, word that accordingly.

So that sexual interaction rears its’ lovely head and I swoon at the mere thought when it first bloomed.

Oh, m’god, how to handle that?

Well, you think long and hard and finally tackle your first ’love’ scene, and perhaps limit it to flirtation and mild attraction and only hint at resolution or consummation.

But as you write more, and more intense, and emotions require more, then, gasp, you are forced to admit you must write an actual explicit sex scene. Egads…how the hell does one do that?

Well…you write it…because you must and you are embarrassed and don’t show it to a single soul and would die if they read it.

Embarrassed because if it is real or to be real, it must be from experience or from reading other stories that do so and then, ah, then, you must trust that whoever wrote what you plagiarize, did so honestly, sighs, and how does one know that?

So you finally understand that to be real and honest, it must come from within, from your own experiences or, stretching it, from your own fantasy built on your own experiences.

So you finally get it done and you let someone read it and they come back with a ‘wow!’ or a ‘Yuck’. or worst of all, silence, and for all three responses, you still don’t really know how well you did.

But then you do it a hundred times and you get a variety of reactions and you no longer concern yourself with whether it is one thing or the other as your stories are read and appreciated.

Well…that was the seduction and the foreplay and the buildup to….

Suppose…for the sake of conversation…that you have reached a plateau in your writing and you have explored about all the possible sexual scenario’s you need to and find yourself wanting to write fiction but not necessarily with a sexual encounter involved?

Can one judiciously return to the ‘hint’ stage, that consummation actually occurred without describing it?

Can one successfully write of the aftermath of intimacy and the changes wrought by the event with just a mere hint or suggestion that it did, or might have?

Is the subtlety appreciated should one accomplish that with delicacy, or does the reader yearn for the details?

Romance novels before ‘Romantica’, mild erotica, seemed to do that and were very successful, but is that a thing of the past?

And yes, I have such a novel working and I am concerned about it. The plot and theme are strong and the characters full but not explicit in sexual terms, aside from acknowledgments and innuendo.

Not asking for advice but hoping for discussion and ideas.

Regards…

Amicus…

 

[Vermilion]

As I am not entirely sure what angle your question was set at, I am going to attempt to answer this in two ways...

Firstly - yes, I think it is possible as a writer to return to that 'hint' stage. I myself, when trying to write something that wasn't driven and motivated by sex (an unusual turn of events for me) found that a mere suggestion of sex was all that was needed, as the 'crisis point' was not the sex itself, so the sex did not, therefore, need to be massively elaborated upon.

Secondly - whether it is possible, in this day and age, to return to a romance novel style that has long since passed? I'm really not certain...

Perhaps if one was writing a more 'masculine' style of novel - action, highly complex plot, tense, adrenaline-pumping, testosterone-fuelled then one might be able to excise the sex, as the reader would be getting their kicks from the action and could do without the sexual release.

With the more... romantic books, however, I doubt there are many publishers left these days who would be content to leave a sex scene at:

He kissed her gently, stroking her hair away from her face.
"You're so beautiful," he told her.

***

He was just as loving the next morning...

As readers have been led to expect more and publishers would not want readers disappointed. Sex sells, remember?

x
V

 

[amicus]

Thanks Vermilion...

"...As readers have been led to expect more and publishers would not want readers disappointed. Sex sells, remember?..."

~~~

You reminded me of an aspect I did not mention and did not really consider openly.

I decided I don't care if 'sex sells', anymore, wasn't considering the commercial value, rather writing to get something said.

I sketch, draw, paint and do wood carvings and again, not for commercial value but to express something that I feel the need to express.

Haven't a clue as to understanding why, but the novel, is different, I know why I need to write this, and I don't really concern myself with the commercial value, but, I do want it to be readable and enjoyable and yes, I think you are right.

Thanks for the affirmation.


ami

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

I believe that the writing has to hook the reader's attention and curiosity, regardless of the theme. Writers are doomed when they pretend there is no competition for the reader's time. A century ago writers had the luxury of tip-toeing thru the tulips and stopping to smell the roses, but no more. Readers demand a drive-by or axe murder by the end of page ONE, and this includes appliance repair manuals.

 

[gauchecritic]

There's a large gulf between hint and explicit, between ellipsis and cock 'n' cunt. I would have to say that it depends almost entirely on the approach to that scene. The question "Does it advance the plot?" is what a writer is supposed to ask themselves for any portion of their writing. Is the actual act germane to the story?

In a similar thread many years ago TheEarl asked basically the same question. How much of the necessary action of making a cup of tea required?

In the ordinary process of tea making it was generally agreed that as a 'common knowledge' very little of the process needs describing.

Then comes the question "How is it useful?" Does the act reflect their relationship? Is the story at the point where they might indulge in a 'grudge fuck'? Is it fun for both or mainly for one? Is it the last time that they will ever get skin to skin? Or the first?

Having decided that, then I think the depth or intimacy of the scene rests upon the writing as a whole. As a general rule of thumb you might say if the action generally is non-specific then the sex scene should be too.
For example;

The increasing heat from the makeshift rappel line searing her hands inside the leather gloves urged caution. The tracery of pock marks from zinging bullets biting the white facade down which she flew urged haste.

In my mind would require:

Declining her own modesty she oofed on every thrust that filled her, urging him onward towards their common end. Fingernails on sweat-slick skin marked the passage and crescendo of her howling need.

Whereas:

He used the rope to clamber down the three stories.

requires:

Declining the bed They made sweet, sweet love on the floor.

And therefore:

The rope would be useful...

has only:

She dragged him to the bedroom...

 

[neonlyte]

I've just spent half an hour on the phone with a 'gama' reader - i.e. she's reading the unproofed copy of a novel. I cut most of the explicit sex out. She said, "You're a fucking sex maniac!"

What sex remains is mostly in the readers mind since this 'novel' is intended for mainstream publication. I'm of a mind that three things drive individuals: Power, Money, and Sex. The latter overlaps the first two. Depending upon plot, any of the three can drive the relationships in a story; if you are going for sex, where do you draw the line? The first explict coupling in my story happens while the woman is having her period... there is no need to go into detail (in the story) they are bound by their both being willing to consumate the relationship. It breathes intimacy.

My 'two penny worth' is that as a writer you need to find the trigger that convinces a reader to continue reading. Strong characters, strong plot, enough mystery to get the reader to turn the page. My 'gama' reader read my 'novel' over two days, and she's fussy about what she reads. I'm happy.

 

[amicus]

Gauche, Neon...yes...thank you, I understand and agree, pretty much...

The theme or internal motivation is one that you might describe as 'religious' fervor, wherein the characters are full aware of sexual connotations, but are driven by something larger, almost in a monasterial sense, where abstinence, so as not to detract from purpose, become paramount.

The main characters libido, which feeds over to the subordinate characters, is one of rising above, distancing oneself from human desires in pursuit of a larger goal, and allthough the libido is not denied, it is suppressed...sighs...

Again, not really seeking advice, I know of what I desire, and I know, from reading, it has been done before in literature, but this is my first attempt to write and ignore the normal drives that control characters and action and to legitimately write them as they rise above the fleshly desires and pursue their adopted purpose.

I think I have a handle on it, overall, but I have the vague feeling that a reader may think, well, geez, are they ever gonna get it on...and then I have doubts...

More input, need input, (Johnny five) forgot the name of the film...

Amicus...

 

[jomar]

The main characters libido, which feeds over to the subordinate characters, is one of rising above, distancing oneself from human desires in pursuit of a larger goal, and allthough the libido is not denied, it is suppressed...sighs...


I think I have a handle on it, overall, but I have the vague feeling that a reader may think, well, geez, are they ever gonna get it on...and then I have doubts...


Amicus...

Readers might wonder if they're gonna get it on, but if the tension is there along with the self-denial aspect, then they'll buy it. Just look to television, which frequently develops sexual tension between a couple of characters who never get together because when they do, the show fizzles. The sexual tension itself is a strong draw.

 

[Weird Harold]

Romance novels before ‘Romantica’, mild erotica, seemed to do that and were very successful, but is that a thing of the past?

I think it all depends on how you structure the story.

Diana Gabaldon's Outlander Series is marketed as "romance" but it has less explicit sexual description than many books marketed as mainstream "Fiction and Literature" (Like Jane Auel's Earth's Children series, or books marketed as "Science Fiction and Fantasy."

I think that if you write your story well, with an apropriate amount of explictness, people will not notice whether or how much explicit sex was present -- in my experience, sex scenes are only really memorable if they disrupt the flow of the story, no matter how explicit or inexplicit they might be.

 

[Oblimo]

More input, need input

Conflict. If chastity is important to the story, then the chaste character has to be tempted, or his/her chastity has to lead to folly. That's the usual way you write an interesting (to other people; writing for your own curiosity/satisfaction is a different matter) story about chastity, or, anything, really.

Off-the-top-of-my-head science Fiction examples: Canticle for Leibowitz, 1984, God Emperor of Dune.

 

[Oblimo]

How to imply two characters fuck without showing said fucking but nevertheless still follow the rule of "Show, Don't Tell:"

"This is it," she said, pointing to the brownstone. She reached into her purse. Keys jangled. She turned to face him, her smile crooked. "Do you want to come up for a drink?"

He blinked. "Alright." He laughed, "I mean, yeah, I'd love to," and followed her inside.

[begin next chapter]

Tah-freakin'-dah.

If it's sci-fi, have her key her address into a telepod or somethin'.

 

[angelicminx]

I don't know what publishers are looking for these days, but I know the majority of the 'mainstream' novels I have read lately are NOT explicit in sexual detail. Oddly enough, when I do come across a mainstream novel with explicit sex, I roll my eyes and move on to the next book. Unless I'm specifically looking for an erotic book, I really don't want to read about the sex in detail, preferring to leave most of it to my imagination.


Hmm, interesting. That might be exactly why I struggle to write sex scenes, and have since stopped writing them altogether... I'll have to ponder that.

Just my thoughts on the matter, as I'm getting the idea that you'll do what is in your heart to do and really don't want personal advice, just a discussion of thoughts from a wide audience.

 

[amicus]

Angelic...thanks...gave me a thought, part of what you said.

The novels I enjoy also do not have explicit sexual scenes either, so perhaps my thinking was off kilter a little in musing that the 'ultimate' personal relationship need be more than hinted at.

It applies to two different things I am working on wherein that intimate relationship adds something to the lives of the main characters and in effect, changes them in some ways.

Still something to think about as I attempt to give fullness to them.

Thanks again...


amicus...

 

[cloudy]

I don't know what publishers are looking for these days, but I know the majority of the 'mainstream' novels I have read lately are NOT explicit in sexual detail. Oddly enough, when I do come across a mainstream novel with explicit sex, I roll my eyes and move on to the next book. Unless I'm specifically looking for an erotic book, I really don't want to read about the sex in detail, preferring to leave most of it to my imagination.


Hmm, interesting. That might be exactly why I struggle to write sex scenes, and have since stopped writing them altogether... I'll have to ponder that.

Just my thoughts on the matter, as I'm getting the idea that you'll do what is in your heart to do and really don't want personal advice, just a discussion of thoughts from a wide audience.

I'm the same way, which is why my writing for Lit has pretty much ground to a halt. I still love to write, but I hate writing sex scenes. Let's face it, they're really sort of boring after awhile. I've caught myself skipping the sex scene to come back to later, more interested in writing the story than the sex (and have gone so far as to put "they fuck here" as a place holder until I force myself to come back to the scene, and write it ).

 

[amicus]

Couldn't help but smile at your, 'place holder', Cloudy, I wonder if this happens to a lot of writers concerning sex scenes...interesting.

Still...in the case of major important fictional characters such as the Chief, in one of my novels, I felt it necessary to let the reader know his really intimate self as he was by necessity so reserved in his public demeanor.

And again, in a political novel, the main character must be above reproach in all things, yet he must be seen, I think, as a full person, including his deepest private emotions.

It is one of those underlying assumptions when one sets forth to write that when faced with the question, one is sometimes puzzled by ones own inner feelings about such things....sorry, that was abstract, I know, but so much enters into the whole realm of human sexuality.

Still musing away...

amicus...

 

[Oblimo]

Couldn't help but smile at your, 'place holder', Cloudy, I wonder if this happens to a lot of writers concerning sex scenes...interesting.

Yep. Mine is "AND THEN HE FUCKED HER," borrowed from this moment in the web-comic Platinum Grit:

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m34/oblimo/ATHFH.jpg

 

[Liar]

Can one judiciously return to the ‘hint’ stage, that consummation actually occurred without describing it?

Well, my smut writing has in some regards not even left that stage.

The only fiction I write outside of Lit are stage plays. Then I can do the easy cop-out and write <Brenda Busty and Virgil the Virile screw like bunnies> in the stage notes and let the director sort it out.

 

[angelicminx]

I'm the same way, which is why my writing for Lit has pretty much ground to a halt. I still love to write, but I hate writing sex scenes. Let's face it, they're really sort of boring after awhile. I've caught myself skipping the sex scene to come back to later, more interested in writing the story than the sex (and have gone so far as to put "they fuck here" as a place holder until I force myself to come back to the scene, and write it ).

I've done the same thing, except for the phrasing. Mine says, "Fill in sex here." (Or in a 'tender moment' it's "Fill in loving sex here." LMAO. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The question's a lot like asking how much violence do you need to show in a novel. Do you have to describe every punch that was thrown and every drop of blood that was spilled, or is it enough to describe the fight in the broad terms of bodies hitting the table and falling onto the floor and rolling around, or can you get away with even less, with them "struggling atop the speeding baggage car" or something.

It's the same with sex. Leaving aside the question of what's popular and saleable, how much sex you need in your book depends on what you need the sex scenes to do, if anything. If all they are are breaks in the story where the characters can start humping away for the delectation of the reader, then the sex is gratuitous and will probably look ludicrous to a sophisticated reader. like in a movie musical where everything suddenly comes to halt so the hero and heroine can stop and step up to the front of the stage and sing. However if you've got something to say in the sex scene--if you're revealing that he's really got a tender side and needs the comfort of a woman's sexual love, or that she's cold on the outside but terribly passionate when sexually aroused--then the sex scene can be essential.

The big thing is, it should never be gratuitous. The sex should never feel tacked on.

Sex is actually the least important thing that's going on when two people have sex. The mental and social maneuvering and negotiating and strategyzing are always more important and far more interesting and a lot more erotic than who's putting what where during the actual sex. 95% of all porn writers never learn this and 95% of all porn is bad because of it. Almost every act of sex between 2 people has a social goal, something one or both of them is/are trying to accomplish: showing dominance or expressing love or contempt or anger or surrender. If that kind of maneuvering and negotiating and strategyzing has meaning to your story and makes sense shown in a sexual context, then by all means, use the sex.

As for toning down the sex, there are myriads of ways for doing it. The classic is the kiss followed by a blackout: "His lips came down on hers, and as Delia went limp in his arms, Reginald thumbed the switch on the antique wall sconce and plunged the boudoir into stygian darkness..." (note use of ellipsis de rigeur) to broad euphemism--"That afternoon Jacques taught her the joys of being a woman; the ecstasies of being a woman who belonged to Jacques." and the old "his lips came down on hers and she felt she was falling--falling into a maelstrom of emotion from which she'd never recover, from which she never wanted to recover..." That kind of stuff.

--Zoot

 

[Vermilion]

I've done the same thing, except for the phrasing. Mine says, "Fill in sex here." (Or in a 'tender moment' it's "Fill in loving sex here." LMAO. Glad to know I'm not the only one.

I wrote 'insert orgasm here' the other day

lol.

I enjoy writing sex scenes, but I wanted to barrel on with the story at that point.

x
V

 

[Arafura]

Sex is actually the least important thing that's going on when two people have sex. The mental and social maneuvering and negotiating and strategyzing are always more important and far more interesting and a lot more erotic than who's putting what where during the actual sex. 95% of all porn writers never learn this and 95% of all porn is bad because of it. Almost every act of sex between 2 people has a social goal, something one or both of them is/are trying to accomplish: showing dominance or expressing love or contempt or anger or surrender. If that kind of maneuvering and negotiating and strategyzing has meaning to your story and makes sense shown in a sexual context, then by all means, use the sex.

I'd say this is the closest thing to my approach when writing for mainstream. In the novel I'm currently working on, two characters have this really difficult, painful sex session, knowing they shouldn't be doing it, knowing they'll be ripped apart by the larger events of the war soon.

So, I don't use explicit descriptions of who-put-what-in-where. It's more about what's going on in their heads, how it feels, what it means to her to finally have him so close, melding perspectives which have previously been separated in the narrative.

I actually find this kind of sex scene more fun to write that straight up cock-n-cunt stories. Probably more to do with me having to crank out the bawdier tales very regularly, and seeing the other writing as a "break".

I would say though, that any writer can vacillate between hints and "creamy jets of spunk"...it depends on your characters, your context, but most of all, your overall project. The sex scenes I habitually write would be utterly out of place in my novel, but the novel sex probably could not be read as a stand-alone sex story without knowing the characters' motivations and the story background.

 

[WRJames]

There are, unfortunately, only a finite, and fairly small, combination of anatomical features that can constitute a sex act. It doesn't take too long to exhaust those possibilities. Beyond that, of course, there is fetish, bondage, etc. -- and I know in my own writing I have ventured further into those areas, just to transcend the limits of anatomy.

But, of course, character, dialog, emotions, are what give true variety, so it is important to make each sex scene a story on its own, and an integrated part of the overall plot.

As for the what needs to be desribed -- I think there is such a variety of taste that it is hard to please everyone. I recently wrote a piece (Baby Changing Station) where the lady needs to prepare herself for anal sex, and does so in full view of the guy. I did not go into too much detail -- but it was enough to get the story classified under fetish -- and the one comment I got (quickly deleted) was that I had not described the shit dropping out in sufficient detail. Personally, I find throbbing nine inch cocks in tight juicy pussies pretty boring -- but a lot of our readers seem to want that.

I know in the Eden series my editor has been egging me on to make each of the novels more "erotic" -- but I may have reached the limit of that in Goddess in Eden. I'm thinking of stepping back and writing something more sedate -- yeah, right.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't know what publishers are looking for these days, but I know the majority of the 'mainstream' novels I have read lately are NOT explicit in sexual detail. Oddly enough, when I do come across a mainstream novel with explicit sex, I roll my eyes and move on to the next book. Unless I'm specifically looking for an erotic book, I really don't want to read about the sex in detail, preferring to leave most of it to my imagination.

The old shibboleth is, of course, that men like graphic sex scenes where everything is described visually and women like emotional sex scenes where everything is described in terms of mood and feelings. The fact is, though, you can very easily have both at once, since the way someone makes love is a very good indicator of their emotional state.

There's probably only one way to write a bad sex scene, and that's by getting the emotions wrong.

 

[BlackShanglan]

It's the same with sex. Leaving aside the question of what's popular and saleable, how much sex you need in your book depends on what you need the sex scenes to do, if anything. If all they are are breaks in the story where the characters can start humping away for the delectation of the reader, then the sex is gratuitous and will probably look ludicrous to a sophisticated reader. like in a movie musical where everything suddenly comes to halt so the hero and heroine can stop and step up to the front of the stage and sing. However if you've got something to say in the sex scene--if you're revealing that he's really got a tender side and needs the comfort of a woman's sexual love, or that she's cold on the outside but terribly passionate when sexually aroused--then the sex scene can be essential.

The big thing is, it should never be gratuitous. The sex should never feel tacked on.

*laugh* Just had the most wonderful image of the heroine stopping in mid-shag for a show-stopping musical number, complete with awkwardly encumbered male partner attempting to keep up ...

It's a great point, though. One thing I keep coming back to as a golden rule is that every scene should work to achieve multiple goals. A scene that does only one thing tends to feel thin and gratuitous even if it does advance the plot or show an important aspect of character or establish the physical setting. When it does all of those things at once, it starts to feel vital. Part of my revision process is now the Interrogation of the Scenes in which they need to justify themselves and show depth or ship out.

There's cause and effect, as well. If the sex scene doesn't have a clear cause for occurring and / or a clear effect on what follows, then it will seem tacked-on. I think it's "Cause" with a capital as well; it needs the sort of Cause that the rest of the events have, important causes leading to important effects, and not just "they had sex because they were horny" any more than you'd write a scene of the lead sitting through the morning drive to work only "because he had to get to work." If it doesn't to more than get him to work, it's not doing enough.

 

[Frank Noir]

Amicus, my sex writing didn't "evolve" from my other stuff. I just tried writing sex stories because, well... it was fun.

Currently, it's the only kind of fiction I write. But I can easily imagine writing mainstream stories - without the need for graphic sex scenes.

As others have already said, it depends on what the focus of the story is. In my sex stories, the focus is on the sex, pure and simple. If something else was the focus of the story, lengthy and graphic sex scenes would just be pointless.