8-2-02 curious2c

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
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Posts
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I think we're going good here guys! I won't be asking questions up front anymore, rather, I'll hang back and ask 'em later. However, this doesn't mean that you can't ask questions! Share, baby, share!

I skipped over him (I feel like a total ass) and thankfully caught it before he had to get irate at me. Sorry about that curious!

QUOTE:

Anyway, my offering for disection,http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=51160 :(
I will appreciate any comments, and like in the erroneous post, I am interested in comments on my use of "Quotations". thanks ;)
 
Not mad at all!

Having been here as both a lurker and now a writer, I understand your missing my request. I imagine that you get very busy with life not to mention doing all of this work here at Literotica. I appreciate your candidness and honesty. My job currently takes me away from modern technology and the access I enjoy at home, so sometimes I can't answer in a very timely manner.:(
Thank you for the mention and hopefully I won't dissapoint or waste your valuable time.:D
 
C2C,

I'm sorry, but I could barely begin, much less finish your story. My problems with this story included:

1. The way you mis-use paragraph breaks and,
2. The way you mis-use quotation marks.
(Some of your paragraphs are very long and contain the quotes of two or more characters. Other are short, one character quotes. Having each sentence within a multi-sentence quotation appear inside seperate quoation marks was unique, and for me, confusing.)
3. Having to begin in the middle of an ongoing plot with no preface made the situation even worse.
4. Writing in first person is tough. One of the problems is how to tell the story without overusing "I". In one 99 word paragraph, you used "I" 11 times.
5. Perhaps because it was told in the past tense, the characters seemed unusually distant for a first person POV.

You've got a vivid imagination and I'm glad you've had fun writing this story. But if you plan to continue, I strongly suggest you invest a few hours in learning the basic mechanics of writing.

Rumple Foreskin
 
Rumple Foreskin

Wow. O.K.
I am glad that you pointed out the misuse of my quotation marks. I have been reviewing my grammer and you are correct it would have been an easier read if I had been more...circumspect in my usage.:(
As far as the paragraph breaks go, I have had several feedback responses stating that I have too big of paragraphs, a couple stated that I wrote a very 'readable' story, and some that really liked my work. My intent is to make a story that is easy to read. After looking over the story as posted at literotica, I tend to have to agree. I, in my attempt to make it 'more readable' ended up over doing paragraph breaks according to present day grammer. Will I change that portion of my writing? Perhaps, since I will have now been thinking about this particular problem and possible corrections.
I wasn't fair to you all by giving over a story that was way past the first part. I should have probably either started with chapter one, or perhaps wrote so that the reader could pick up on the story in any chapter and get an idea of what was going on. My fault.
Ways to go on the 'first person' type writing, I am new to this writing thing though, and while that is no excuse in itself, if you knew my background, you would probably be surprised that I chose to write at all.;)
Number five, I believe was responded to in the above section about starting you out with chapter seven instead of chapter one.:)
And as to your final comment, the reason I asked for story discussion was to get honest critique on my writing, which it seems that I have. School for me was not a real pleasure, and it has been a few days since I last attended highschool. Grammer was not my high point then. Much to my detriment now, obviously.:D
Thank you for taking the time to read my work and make pertinent comments on it.:cool:
 
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Sorry curious, I couldn't get into this at all. Partly because the plot lost me; might be worthwhile putting up a synopsis of what has happened so far here so other reviewers can understand what's going on. My major quibble was the use of exclamation marks. These should only be used for excited talking or a surprise and I prefer them used sparingly if at all.

Eg. First paragraph:

Now I had a new cock that looked nothing like what I had grown up with! I was discouraged for a while after the operation; I would never have done anything like this on my own! I had grown up with it and was happy with the way it had been! Now, well, it was beginning to feel 'right'. Mary had been pushing me for sex on a daily basis, several times a day! I had to pretend that I was starting to 'love' her, and when Joan brought Julie over one day I had to ignore the one true love of my life! It was the hardest thing I had ever done! When Julie had put her arms around me giving me a hug and tried to kiss me I had to pretend that I didn't want her! It tore me up inside to see the haunted look that Julie gave me! She started to cry and went out to Joan's car. I had crushed her!

10 sentences and only one ends without an exclamation mark. I would have written that paragraph with no exclamations as there is nothing that deserves it in there (with the possible exception of the last sentence, although I personally wouldn't). Think of that piece of punctuation as something you only bring out for special occasions when you really want to hammer a point in and your writing will be easier to read.

Commas are a bit off too. This first sentence has too many and the second too few:

I had developed another plan, and this time I was going to succeed in getting Julie and myself away from this bitch and her 'business'!

When Julie had put her arms around me giving me a hug and tried to kiss me I had to pretend that I didn't want her!


Commas should not be used before ands; they should only be used when a pause in the narrative is required. In the second sentence the phrase "tried to kiss me I had to pretend..." really should have a pause in it. Try saying it and you'll find an aural pause before 'I.'

I'm truly sorry I didn't get to read all of your story as the plot does sound interesting from what I picked up and it is fairly good writing. My eyes just keep getting diverted to the grammatical errors. What you need is a really good editor; I suggest a Lit volunteer as they will nitpick your story and people can concentrate on your writing and storylines.

Keep writing and don't get disheartened; I didn't mean to sound that nasty.

The Earl
 
The Earl

Thank you for your insight on my work. I am going to put in a background on this to clear up confusion on where we are in the story. My fault, should always use FIRST chapters for diagnosis.:)
Exclaimation points, yes I have had a terrible time with these and I even rewrote several stories due to this. I will or more likely, should edit this whole story. It would be better for my readers I suppose. :(
Your mention of my poor comma use is probably right on too. My english/grammer skills in high school were not good. No excuse really since I have just now,twenty some odd years later decided to become a 'writer'.:)
I don't think you were or sounded nasty at all. I have had some feedback that I would consider nasty, but it was more to the storyline than my writing skill.:p
I do think that your critizisms were justified, and honestly brought out to my attention. It will be a lot of work rewriting this whoel thing, but it may be worth the effort after all.:D
Thank you once again for taking the time and effort and giving me the heads up.
 
Background on this story.

Since I slipped you all a chapter seven, instead of chapter one, I have been taken to task twice now for the way it starts out. My appologies to all involved for this poor choice on my part.:(
To bring you up to date this story starts with a happily married couple. The husband works away from home for weeks at a time, like a shift job, where I am from it would be a 'camp job'. The wife gets bored with being home by herself and goes to work for an old college friend (Joan). Joan's business isn't what Julie thinks. Joan ends up brewing up a special drink combo for Julie while out celbrating a new contact one night and Julie wakes up at home with the usual signs of having been taken on a hard ride. Joan has done this to other women and uses them for her business, which is a special prostitution type service. Joan then blackmails Julie into staying with the 'business', and since Joan majored in physocology in college and did very well at it, she has used her learned skills to start to control Julie's life.
Jon, Julie's husband is unaware of what Julie's new job is and soon finds out the hard way. Joan's overall plan is to take Jon away from Julie and demean Julie since Joan has always thought that Julie was a snob or stuck-up bitch. There are more details but to go any farther would mean that I would be writing the whole thing here.;)
Joan is not nice.
Jon loves Julie very much.
Julie loves jon very much but is stuck in her new roll in order to keep Jon alive and well.
Mary, Julie's sister is involved in this mess also, and has been a 'friend ' of Joans since college days.
Joan's business associates are very connected underworld bad-ass guys.
Some would say this is not a 'good' story. Sqeamish not apply. It does turn and twist in plot, but the end is, well, I think the end is fitting.;)
I hope that this little story in itself clears up any confusion, and I will try to not introduce works in the middle of the road in the future.:D
 
I know some of my comments might be overstating what others have said, but with your comments, Curious, I'll go ahead and continue.

First let me say that I read the entire submission.

I do think you have a very good imagination, and I truly see a bigger story in this trying desperately to get out. However, I think that to develop it properly, it should fall under the "Novels and Novellas" section, and require more work in the grammar department.

I think patience might be in order as well. I didn't read the first six chapters, but this one had the feel of being written rather hastily. I'm not certain if that is true or not, but it felt that way. It seemed to me that this story should have "sat" for a bit, received some editing, and then been submitted.

You say you are new to writing, and that is a good thing. Sometimes the biggest obstacle to overcome is actually putting something out there, and you have acheived that.

Here's where I see improvement:

1. The overuse of exclamation points. Part of the difficulty of getting through this story is that it exhausted me mentally. I'm one of those folks who look to punctuation to tell me how the writer wants his/her story told, and I kept reading this in "excited mode". By the time I was finished, my brain was fried. Seriously, be much, much more cautious with exclamation points. I can offer you what I do: think of an exclamation point as though it were a man in a bright pink suit. It's startling, surprising, and eye-catching. It's not something you want to see all the time, but when it is seen, it give a certain punch.

2. Yes, the beginning was difficult to get into because it was chapter 7. It would have been easier if you had submitted chapter 1, I agree. However, unless this is a novel or novella, there is a technique you can use to bring new readers up to the point of the story. By using a short introduction, highlighted in italics and one paragraph long, new readers can start reading your story and understand the basics of what is going on. Readers who have read the previous chapters can simply skip over that part.

Another technique is to incorporate the information from the previous chapters gradually into this story. For example, in the first paragraph you have this sentence:

"Mary had been pushing me for sex on a daily basis, several times a day!"

This might be more understandable as:

"Julie's sister, Mary, had been pushing me for sex on a daily basis, several times a day."

Now your new reader knows exactly who Mary is, even though they might not know the full story. This might not work for all parts, but it would help to clear up who is who at the very beginning of the chapter, rather than at the end.

3. The manner of "speaking" for this story was that of some one simply telling me a story. Very much as though a girlfriend were relating point by point how her Friday night date went. You have some action going on in this story. Revenge! Getting even! This isn't point by point stuff. This is something you want to draw your audience into and let them become a part of. Let them be in the room when Jon gets his revenge. Allow them to see the glint of the knife, the barrel of the gun bearing down on its victims. This is where I felt you could have spent the greatest amount of time and didn't. This could have been an "on the edge of your seat" kind of thing, if you get my drift.

4. Yeah, the quotation marks are more than a little confusing. You only need one set of quotation marks within a paragraph of dialogue. You don't need to surround each sentence or question with its very own little set. A way to remember that? Everytime the quotation marks end and new ones begin, it means a new person is speaking. Also, try to avoid having two people speaking in the same paragraph. You will only confuse your readers.

5. Try to make the dialogue convincing. There were a couple of times when I read the dialogue and went, "Huh?" An example would be towards the end. Joan is tied up, and Jon is talking to Roger. Now, from what I gather, Joan is a total bitch and Roger is some sort of bigwig Mafia character. Here is how Roger answers Jon when he is asked why he cares how Joan feels.

"Look, I, uh, well, I like her a lot!"

Huh? This didn't make sense to me. Totally out of character. I would expect this type of language from a school kid, not some gangster porn maker. I think the whole idea of there being "feelings" between these two is unrealistic.

When writing dialogue, remember your characters. How do you think they would speak in the situation they are in? I know I don't always do the best in this situation, either. It can be tough. Sometimes I've found it helpful if I "take on" the character, become them, see how their skin feels, so to speak. I usually come up with better dialogue when I do.

6. Quite frankly, you really put me off with the whole castration sequence. I really felt as though that could have been cut out completely, and was wondering what purpose it served. It did nothing for me, except make me a bit sick to my stomach. Again, a touch of realism, here. Would two men really take the time to castrate six men with a knife, a blow torch, and a metal spoon? This part didn't work for me. It would be interesting to hear what kind of feedback you got on that part. I just might be totally off-base.


I know it sounds as if I've probably ripped your story apart, but I think with some hard work and patience you could have a really good story here.
 
The Earl

'Commas should not be used before ands..."


Leaving aside items in a series, Rubbish!
Cite your source! Please don't state a rule with authority, if you haven't checked.




I'm saying this because I'm puzzled, and I also want to caution authors about 'experts' here, who aren't. [Note required comma.]


I went back and read the first chapter, and did find it hot, and the plot, at that point, makes some sense. As already stated, the punctuation is rather breathless! Yes, breathless!

I think the author can tell a story, but needs to prune, and to find an editor to handle the details.





Best,
Jack.
"abashed-dreamer"
 
"abashed dreamer"

Jack, If I may be so bold to call you that, Thank you for your insights. I have a question now. By 'breathless', do you mean my punctuation cause the reader to breathlessly read on, or that I am conveying a feeling of being rushed? My writing, not the characters.
I am glad that someone found this 'hot', I have had some mixed feelings about this whole 'discussion' thing. I know that the intent is to help me become a better writer. I have been able to hold my story out here anyway, even though I now know just how hard this can be for an author.:cool:
My appreciation for your short but even outlook, much like Sexy Chele's, is great. I have not the background to know for sure about proper comma placement, although I am working on that.
I have been thinking about trying to get an editor, but I have read that getting one is difficult as of this writing. Perhaps I have been misled in that respect too.;)
All in all, everyone has had some 'help' for me so far and don't think it has gone unnoticed. Thanks again Jack.
 
Hi Curious2c,

The rule Jack is refering to is:

No comma is used before the coordinate conjunctions and, but, or, nor, and yet when the coordinate conjunction joins two words, two phrases, or two dependant clauses.
A comma is used when joining two independant clauses, and the comma always goes before the conjunction.

Curious2c did the written assignment and handed it in on time.

Curious 2c did the written assignment, and he handed it in on time.

The comma has more rules than any other punctuation mark, I believe. At least the little book I bought through Writer's Digest
has forty pages of rules and examples for the comma. All the other punctuation marks had only six or seven pages. The book is called Punctuation: Plain and Simple.

It is hard to remember all the rules when you've been out of school as long as I have (going on fifty years), and this little book has helped me.

Hope this helps you. You've done the hard part, getting words on paper, now arrange it, punctuate it, check the grammar, check the spelling. Edit, edit and more edit. And this is supposed to be fun? :)

Good luck,

Bonnybee
 
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Hi Curious2c,

The overabundance of !! creates a breathless feeling, or as if everyone's yelling. Use sparingly.

Sorry is you felt badly. As with email feedback, you have to pick and choose what may be useful, and it's hard to be useful, and easy to give some half-remembered rule from a grammar book one hasn't seen in years. Sort through criticisms, don't utterly dismiss any reasonable ones, but be selective in what you reflect upon.

Some people can tell a good story. Some can tell a good, "hot"
(porn-erotic) story. You have some promise, if you can prune the lush growth somewhat and get expert advice in presentation.

If I may cite a parallel problem, not yours. It may surprise some here, but there are famous authors--with many novels to their credit-- who cannot spell, and have professional spelling correcters go over each manuscript.

Iow, it's good to focus on deeper issues; most of the minor stuff that obsesses some people is fixable, while lack of imagination or ability to tell a story is not.

Best,
Jack.
 
abashed-dreamer said:


If I may cite a parallel problem, not yours. It may surprise some here, but there are famous authors--with many novels to their credit-- who cannot spell, and have professional spelling correcters go over each manuscript.


Wow, where can I get me one of these! I need one - badly! Oh, or do I have to be published first? Darn!

Iow, it's good to focus on deeper issues; most of the minor stuff that obsesses some people is fixable, while lack of imagination or ability to tell a story is not.

You know, I've been thinking on this. I do think it is helpful to go over the technical part, but I also worry that maybe (for me, anyway) it doesn't get overly expounded on. Perhaps concentrating, or at least giving thought towards, the concept of the story would be more useful? Or the way in which it is presented? Creative aspects? These might prove to be useful things a writer can take from here and truly use. After all, grammar books are a dime a dozen. Well, almost.
[/B]
 
bonnybee; thank you for the advice and the book title so that I can get some information on punctuation. 'Punctuation Plain and Simple', I think that I will obtain a copy of that ASAP. :)
I am surprised that I remember anything at all about English or Grammar, and I have have only been out of school since 1976. I intend to 'keep plugging away' at this writing and hopefully, someday, I will actually be considered a writer. ;)

abashed-dreamer; My use of excalimation points has been my biggest problem up until lately. I have had quite a bit of feedback on this particular point and re-reading my work, I have seen that I 'shout' through quite a bit of my stories. I am earnestly working at 'fixing' that problem.
As to 'my feeling badly', well, I seem to have a pretty thick-skinned approach. I do listen (read) all advice here since there are quite a few people who know more about writing than I do. Some people are more 'direct' in their critizisms but I can take it.
I will say that spelling has been a pet peeve of mine ever since I have seen some post's on the 'net that have had terrible spelling. I do try to catch most of my spelling errors, although once in a while I catch one here and there in a posted work. Then I am irritated with ME. :)
 
SexyChele

I understand what you meant in your earlier post about exclaimation points. I have actually gone back through one posted story chapter and edited it. I think that I may do that on the whole thing, as soon as I learn more about my comma usage, paragraph breaks, and other things. (Did I get them right here?)
As to this latest post, I high school I attempted to 'emulate' e.e.cummings. What I got for a grade was, well, lets just say that I use that particular '_word' quite a bit. Grammar is important in order that readers of your works understand your point. I have not been the best at getting that right. There is more to this writing thing than I thought. Since I have already started though, I guess I will continue, and wade through the mistakes I make and hope for the best. Life is a learning experience, and I consider my attempt at writing as a part of my life now. :D


P.S. I really love your AV. I have had some thoughts about that.:devil:
 
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