8·Oct·2005 · "Argonauts" · Liar

[The Poets]

Argonauts

Thursday, yet a dirge to match
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine,
my eyes, seeking out behind
early morning shaded glasses
some kind of geist
as commuting peers passes.

And there, you.

Always someone, slightly hyper real
in the hoard of grey.
You, a new body every day,
but your impact close enough to feel.

To glow against a backdrop surface
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence.

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid,
I hope, I do believe.

Maybe you tread a path
run smooth by soles
or maybe you are indeed
an argonaut, who knows?

But I leave you, brushing closely by,
as a pioneer in my eyes. So you fuel
my dream to become, to travel too,
when the time one day is right.​

I'm not going to give you any specfic questions that I want answered. Feel free to attack this from any angle you feel like. Intepretations of the imagery. Connotations of references. Prosodics and rhythm. Telling me it sucks ass. It's entirely up to you.

 

[twelveoone]

"Heading for a paradigm shift,"
has to be one of the worst lines you ever wrote, wince-worthy, even your sometimes excellent writting cannot save it. Yeah, this line does suck ass


Always someone, slightly hyper real
in the hoard of grey. this is some what nice, a turning of a cliche

You, a new body every day, these two lines, I would move or drop
but your impact close enough to feel.

To glow against a backdrop surfaceto bring these lines closer to hoard of grey
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence.

some kind of geistgeist? looks a little out
as commuting peers passes. sounds strange

Lest I be perceived as negative, two points
1) I did not do a Freudian interp.
2.) rest of it , I found good to excellent

 

[Liar]

"Heading for a paradigm shift,"
has to be one of the worst lines you ever wrote, wince-worthy, even your sometimes excellent writting cannot save it. Yeah, this line does suck ass

You think that's bad? Hah, you haven't seen the things I don't pester you guys with.

Solid suggestions there though. I'll keep them in mind.

And Freud? Coke snorting Santa. Gimmie Ziggy Stardust any day.

 

[CharleyH]

In first reading I was intrigued Liar, so I want to comment on you first before getting dirty with 1201 . It may be a few days, sorry.

 

[twelveoone]

You think that's bad? Hah, you haven't seen the things I don't pester you guys with.

Solid suggestions there though. I'll keep them in mind.

And Freud? Coke snorting Santa. Gimmie Ziggy Stardust any day.

In all fairness, I must have heard it 20,000 times in the past 20 years. Then the thought occured to me, suppose no one else has that reaction, so I googled it, over 3,000,000, well OK, suppose I add the word "poetry" still over 150,000 hits, I do not suppose anyone else's reaction would be as extreme. It is like "24/7" for me, a bad reaction. I still don't think it is a good idea.

I do like what you are doing with the face coming out of the crowd. It avoids the cliche. I am hesitant to change the order or the words, but consider playing with them yourself, to make it even stronger, it is the center, the reason.

Three things I look at first, three things I feel can either kill or save a poem; opening, closing, middle. It opens well, the middle is quite mixed for me (I explained above). Besides sounding like Yoda, the last line is quite weak:
"when the time one day is right."
"who knows?"
is another line, that does not fit with the rest - you talk about, "pioneer", "argonaut", "I hope", "I do believe""quantum leap"(semi-wince) "paradigm shift" (big wince) and a really nice picture painted. These two lines tend to negate what you are building. Is this what you want? Ho-hum?

geist-spirit, I do not know what to suggest, I suspect THAT is the word you really wish to use; spirit is the lesser of two evils. Another alternative may be a rewrite with the word "resolution"(think about it) to further play with the "face coming into focus" from the crowd.
Best - 1201

 

[WickedEve]

In all fairness, I must have heard it 20,000 times in the past 20 years. Then the thought occured to me, suppose no one else has that reaction, so I googled it, over 3,000,000, well OK, suppose I add the word "poetry" still over 150,000 hits, I do not suppose anyone else's reaction would be as extreme. It is like "24/7" for me, a bad reaction. I still don't think it is a good idea.

I feel like an idiot. I was okay with paradigm shift until I googled! I bet I love all sorts of crappy phrases since I don't know any better. (I'm actually being serious here.)
Anyway, I'll stick with the simple stuff. I'd drop "who knows." They seem like unnecessary words. I don't like the combination of "I hope, I do believe."

And that's it for me.

 

[Liar]

I feel like an idiot. I was okay with paradigm shift until I googled! I bet I love all sorts of crappy phrases since I don't know any better. (I'm actually being serious here.)
Anyway, I'll stick with the simple stuff. I'd drop "who knows." They seem like unnecessary words. I don't like the combination of "I hope, I do believe."

I was just going to say that. I thouight "I hope, I do believe" was the one that people could go oh puhlease over.

But now I gotta find some other way to say paradigm shift. Unless I want to change the actual denotation of what I want to say. Any suggestions?

 

[twelveoone]

"I hope, I do believe"
I didn't have that reaction to that.

Again, Liar, it may just be me about paradigm. I see why you used it.

Here is a Def., for my sake, don't use "agent of Change' or "Change agent". If you insist on "geist" consider "a new gestalt" . I say that with hesisitation.

What do you wish to be the center, the feeling you wish to convey, everything should play with that.

My guess it is the possibility of a new journey, a ship moving out of a fog, only you tried to update the image.

 

[average gina]

"Heading for a paradigm shift,"
has to be one of the worst lines you ever wrote, wince-worthy, even your sometimes excellent writting cannot save it. Yeah, this line does suck ass


I'm confused.

Yes, I know I'm one of the more ignorant people that dare call myself "poet," but why is the phrase "paradigm shift" a new circle of hell and "quantum leap" isn't? I mean I saw Scott Bakula when I saw that phrase.

Not ragging on your line, Liar. I just get confused.

I'm easalee confoosabull.

 

[WickedEve]

I was just going to say that. I thouight "I hope, I do believe" was the one that people could go oh puhlease over.

But now I gotta find some other way to say paradigm shift. Unless I want to change the actual denotation of what I want to say. Any suggestions?

Personally, I wouldn't change paradigm shift. Of course, personally, I wouldn't change the oil in my car if my dad didn't remind me. So... I do hope some more of the much more knowledgeable poets will step in save us all for the potential paradigm shift.

 

[The_Fool]

Reading this poem before the comments (luckily) I think that I captured your intent. The narrator is caught up in the grunge gray world of yet another day. He spies a character that adds color to the landscape that plays by their own rules, that sees the world in a different way.

Paradigm shift implies a change of thought, a change in mental framework. Quantum leap implies movement beyond the current realm of vision. What gives the narrator the hubris to assume that this person has changed? Might they have had this vision forever and not a result of change?

The narrator then digresses and says maybe you do and maybe you don’t. So he (she) goes from firm commitment to uncertainty with hopefulness.

I would migrate away from implying that the character viewed has changed and instead offer them as a static image of color in a black and white world. Perhaps offer even more contrast between that character and the scenery. I would also concentrate on showing the yearning in the narrator (which you do capture) to realize a shift in life for themselves.

“Paradigm Shift” and “Quantum Leap” are two phrases I would stay away from. They have become overused in normal speech on widely assorted topics.

My foolish ramblings which count for nothing. I’ll try and come up with more later.

There is no fool.

There is no poetry.

 

[CharleyH]

"Heading for a paradigm shift,"
has to be one of the worst lines you ever wrote, wince-worthy, even your sometimes excellent writting cannot save it. Yeah, this line does suck ass

I have answered to this, but 1201? You say it sucks ass without actually offering why, nor how it could be saved. This is helpful? I think you miss the point of its use. I haven't read beyond this one post, so ... I will leave my comments on this issue to another day. For now, TO LIAR

Argonauts

Hi Liar, sorry for talking to 1201 first, but I found his statement uninformed the other night, and still feel it is. I liked the poem overall, but felt it needed clarification. Apologies, I dont have time for a line by line and am just trying to give you the best of my thoughts, I hope you can use something.

Whenever I read your poetry, I begin from a place of lyric, and perhaps it's because I see you as a musician, and so this is a bias right off the top of my reading. The presence of the rhyme does not surprise me in this way. Is it good and consistent rhyme? It doesn't need to be, but I will look.

As always, I preface by saying that I am expert in semiotics, but not poetry (yes 1201, I have degrees – chide and chuckle) and this is probably the only way that I can be of assistance. It would help me greatly if you had specific problems you wanted to address, especially regarding semiotics with this poem, but since you don't, I can only read and offer my sight, insight and experience as I let all of yours settle into me.

My first reading: First three stanzas are the drudge of the corporate machine … dragging self to work, seeing the same dull grey, and then a sight and a change, yet, willing to let it pass.

My closer reading:

I can see very clearly that walk to work: the mechanic and repetitive motion, the live-lessness, this is a character that feels dead in the drudgery of day to day.

Thursday, yet a dirge to match
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine

Immediately, from the first stanza, I can see why your speaker needs to use rhyme. I am set up to know how he feels every day, and so any repetativeness to the words will reflect it, and any rhyme will hint at artifice. Afterall, the first rhyme after this in first stanza is:

early morning shaded glasses
some kind of geist
as commuting peers passes.

First, his sunglasses speak that he doesn't really want to see it, and he blinds himself in a way, heavy he trudges and wanting to be ghost-like. I do feel a heavy burden when I read, a need for something real, something more, something Technicolor if you will. I say this because everyone he passes is grey and therefore repetitive and monotonous, dull if you will.

hoard of grey

It is how I, myself, have described the corporate kiss ass, cheerleading, golfing, 'yes' man/woman mentality when you know you are different, and since he is the only one in shades, and the only one who breaks the routine in a way by looking … you. But where is he looking? This is interesting to me. I had hoped he caught a glimpse of himself and that he was the you, but I don't read it here. You becomes someone else in the third stanza, and I see that he can only garner that one moment of different through 'others' if you will because I do not see one person. I feel he grasps a

new body everyday

It moves into a new phase after this, and it does bring me back to the thought that the character speaks of, and to himself, but at the same time the prose settles on the 'other' in this poem. What is an Argonaut? A hero, no? Is he is own or does he see heroes in different people? I am not clear on this issue.

Third reading:
Argonaut is definitely the title and it is stated in the body, but in my third reading I'm a bit confused as to whether the poet speaks of one other, many others or his self as other?

Being a little more than familiar with Saussure than most, I understand this is a major leap to have a paradigm shift, but I do also understand in context, that it is a leap from one similarity, perhaps, to another. Using a Quantum leap directly after it is a greater jump from one thing to a different thing, so I like this … it's a smart and intelligent movement in context.

After a reference to semiotics and quantum physics, this is a character that knows he is different, and now he hopes and apparently he hopes to believe. (But I am never clear if it is him he refers to, or others on the street?)

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid,
I hope, I do believe.

Is he arrogant in the 6th stanza or questioning himself and those he sees? Not sure, and I think this question of who he speaks to must be solidified more because as you, Liar leave me in the seventh the poet either leaves either us, which is a compliment or leaves self for another day … and I tend to go with the latter because that leap … semiotic or quantum is huge … and scary (I hope and I do believe seems certain, but is in the end only wishing apart from the 'I know')

My final thoughts are that you are trying to develop a poem that speaks a multitude of things. Whether I am right or wrong is of no consequence, but if you got something from me? GREAT!

 

[Guest]

My tuppenceworth - and that's pushing it.


Thursday, yet a dirge to match - try “another” instead of “a” for the rhythm.
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine, - nice alliteration in 1st 3 lines.
my eyes, seeking out behind – “seeking out” sounds odd in this context.
early morning shaded glasses – drop “es”
some kind of geist – geist? Was ist?
as commuting peers passes. – peers pass
And there, you.

Always someone, slightly hyper real – can a thing be both hyper and slightly?
in the hoard of grey.
You, a new body every day,
but your impact close enough to feel. – drop “but”

To glow against a backdrop surface – “to glow” could be “glowing”, “back” and “surface” contradict.
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence. - nice

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid,
I hope, I do believe.

Maybe you tread a path
run smooth by soles
or maybe you are indeed
an argonaut, who knows?

But I leave you, brushing closely by, - is “closely” necessary?
as a pioneer in my eyes. So you fuel – is “as a” necessary?
my dream to become, to travel too,
when the time one day is right. – is “one day’ necessary?

 

[Liar]

Three things I look at first, three things I feel can either kill or save a poem; opening, closing, middle. It opens well, the middle is quite mixed for me (I explained above). Besides sounding like Yoda, the last line is quite weak:
"when the time one day is right."
"who knows?"
is another line, that does not fit with the rest - you talk about, "pioneer", "argonaut", "I hope", "I do believe""quantum leap"(semi-wince) "paradigm shift" (big wince) and a really nice picture painted. These two lines tend to negate what you are building. Is this what you want? Ho-hum?

In so many words: Yes. They are there to reflect the doubt of the narrator... is what he sees really there, or just his wishful thinking?

Methinks I need to think this poem over from scratch. I've heard intepretations of it that I couldn't begin to think was even possible (about who sees who, waht is observed, who does what, and so on). I'll adress those (from you, fool, charley) soon, I haven't got time right now.

Ah, someone buy me an extra hour or two...

 

[twelveoone]

I have answered to this, but 1201? You say it sucks ass without actually offering why, nor how it could be saved. This is helpful? I think you miss the point of its use. I haven't read beyond this one post, so ... I will leave my comments on this issue to another day.

Addressed in a second post.

 

[Guest]

Thursday, yet a dirge to match
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine,
my eyes, seeking out behind
early morning shaded glasses
some kind of geist
as commuting peers passes.

And there, you.
I don't know about this part. It almost sounds gentle... the way that the first part comes off is as if the person 'speaking' is edgy, rough, alittle harder then your norm.... but this one line takes away from that edgy roughness for some reason.

Always someone, slightly hyper real
in the hoard of grey.
You, a new body every day,
but your impact close enough to feel.
This goes along with the line before it in some ways but leaves an odd feeling like oh yes you there the one that comes in and changes the colors and the views of the world. It is almost as if this is an earth shattering moment but it is treated as if its any other occurrance on any other day.

To glow against a backdrop surface
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence.

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid,
I hope, I do believe.

Maybe you tread a path
run smooth by soles
or maybe you are indeed
an argonaut, who knows?

But I leave you, brushing closely by,
as a pioneer in my eyes. So you fuel
my dream to become, to travel too,
when the time one day is right.

This line more matches the beginning stanza. The edgy piece is back, the part that ways you don't really belong in my world, it is all dark, silent, quiet but for a brief moment you have wandered into my world and have completely captivated my attention.

______________________________________

I am really not sure how I feel about the rest of the piece. The parts that I commented upon are the ones that stood up and shouted at me to pay attention to them.

 

[CharleyH]

In so many words: Yes. They are there to reflect the doubt of the narrator... is what he sees really there, or just his wishful thinking?

I am with baited breath on how you want the poem to read and look forward to it with interest and excitement.

 

[Liar]

I am with baited breath on how you want the poem to read and look forward to it with interest and excitement.

As you wish...

It's what I lived through every gray morning for five years of gray life on a gray everyday routine I didn't care for. Where my imagination started to wander as I watched the other gray people on their way to their gray routines.

I know I'm not the only one, thinking that other people have more interresting lives and more purpose to them than I do.... and every morning I would find someone, who stood out, caught my eye. It could be in their step, in their posture, or just where my eyes happned to land. Someone I imagined was headed to something more than my dull existance. Adventures, discoveries, (friggin' quantum leaps). A pioneer and groundbreaker among the sheep, an argonaut among us cowards.

But then of course, I had no way of knowing, therefore the lines in the poem of doubt and dismissal of the dreaming. But lastly with a sliver of inspiration to become what I imagined they were.


K...did that make sense?


(why do I always reply to this thread at 2 in the morning? I'll have to wait til tomorrow to take on the rest of the replys. Thanks, everyone for your perspectives, it has been most educational. )

 

[CharleyH]

As you wish...

It's what I lived through every gray morning for five years of gray life on a gray everyday routine I didn't care for. Where my imagination started to wander as I watched the other gray people on their way to their gray routines.

I know I'm not the only one, thinking that other people have more interresting lives and more purpose to them than I do.... and every morning I would find someone, who stood out, caught my eye. It could be in their step, in their posture, or just where my eyes happned to land. Someone I imagined was headed to something more than my dull existance. Adventures, discoveries, (friggin' quantum leaps). A pioneer and groundbreaker among the sheep, an argonaut among us cowards.

But then of course, I had no way of knowing, therefore the lines in the poem of doubt and dismissal of the dreaming. But lastly with a sliver of inspiration to become what I imagined they were.


K...did that make sense?


(why do I always reply to this thread at 2 in the morning? I'll have to wait til tomorrow to take on the rest of the replys. Thanks, everyone for your perspectives, it has been most educational. )

Sorry for bumping over ElizabethT, I will get to that poem as well. I believe I say this right away and have answered in context, perhaps many unfinished sentances on my part, apologies, I tend to write like people speak. lol. Yes, your post made total sense.

 

[Liar]

It took me a while to come around to this, too much of that Real Life thingy got in the way. First of all, big thanks to you who have taken the time to read and respond. Thorough, honest and diverse feedback. It's what makes a place like this worth coming back to.

So, what do we have...

From 1201 and Eve, I learned that this cliché thing is tricky business. That what I see as a pretty neat description or choice of words can be a horrible blob of triteness to one reader, while another reader don't react to it at all. And the oter way round too, things that I an relutcent to put in a poem can be swalloed whole by readers.

You Never Really Know, is the moral of that story, I guess. A valueable lesson. Merci.


Over to the Foolmeister. Your intepretation of what I wrote have me a hint as to where I wasn't clear enough and where I'd need to juice up the presicion. It's a bit of a problem for me. I hate to state the obvious for the reader and sometimes end up omitting thags that are not obvious.

For me it was evident that the narrator did not know that the persons he met was different from the crowd, but that it was just his imagination running wild. Thus it would not be the characters he sees that changes, but the narrator's doubts of his own dreams that come into play. He imagines that they are bound for greatness, but what does he really know? Anyway, I can see how this can get confusing if I don't define the premises a little clearer.

Charley, it's tricky to give you a coherent answer to all the questions you had. I guess the best I could do was explain exactly what I wished to communicate. Which I did already, I hope that cleared things up. I'm glad you sputted

You asked what an Argonaut is? Defined in my dictionary as an explorer or more specificly, one who travels uncharted waters. And is it the narrator, an abstract other or a specific other that is referred to in the poem? A little of each. The narrator, though stuck in the dreary loop, tries to see the world in a different way, seeks out, but tentatively, new terrain. The other is more of an idea than an actual person. But in every single situation, it is the specific person he sees.

Tess and Elizabetht, good pointers in line rhythm and in changes in color and mood of the language. You both point out stuff that I didn't notice at first, but I find that I agree with.


Did I miss someone? Gina, you can keep Scott Bakula. Just quantum leap into his arms, m'dear.



Ok... over to chack out the new poem...

 

[flyguy69]

Liar, this is a wonderful slice-of-life vignette with broad appeal. Everyone can see themselves on that platform, and the narrator's questions have run through all of our minds. It has, therefore, the foundation necessary for poetry to begin.

It starts painfully slowly for me. There may be some irony in starting a poem on boredom so boringly, but it doesn't pull me in. The "dead excuses" and "decaying routine" seem a convoluted way of saying "dull morning," which you already said (and much better) in line 1. I also was torn about how dead and decayed it really was when the verb "seeking" occured, because that implied hope and effort. There are also some grammatical issues: the comma and conjunction after Thursday suggests that Thursdays are not ordinarily dirges, but they clearly are. The next sentence is a fragment. The phrase "early morning shaded glasses," without any commas, leaves me wondering if you are wearing sunglasses in early morning, or if your regular glasses are are shaded by shadows in early morning, or even if it is a window through which you peek. "Peers" and "passes" need to agree.

I love the juxtaposition of "slightly" and "hyper." I would lose the "but," however.

I like the "glowing" strophe except for this one word: "somehow." It may be a personal nit, but that word is generally poison to a poem for me. It is like asking readers to write the poem for you. Try it with that word removed and this is a much stronger strophe.

The whole paradigm shift/quantum leap thing doesn't add anything for me. It works sonically, but there is no new information there.

The question in S6 puzzles me because the N has established the uniqueness of this commuter, but suddenly posits that it isn't real. Certainly for the sake of the poem, and for the conclusion drawn at the end, it is real.

The final strophe currently requires that question to be asked, but I think that could be fixed. I like the separation from the object-of-interest and musing on travel a lot. The final line, however, is pure greeting card. Lose it before your friends find out.

Thanks for throwing this one out there, Liar.

Argonauts

Thursday, yet a dirge to match
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine,
my eyes, seeking out behind
early morning shaded glasses
some kind of geist
as commuting peers passes.

And there, you.

Always someone, slightly hyper real
in the hoard of grey.
You, a new body every day,
but your impact close enough to feel.

To glow against a backdrop surface
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence.

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid,
I hope, I do believe.

Maybe you tread a path
run smooth by soles
or maybe you are indeed
an argonaut, who knows?

But I leave you, brushing closely by,
as a pioneer in my eyes. So you fuel
my dream to become, to travel too,
when the time one day is right.​

I'm not going to give you any specfic questions that I want answered. Feel free to attack this from any angle you feel like. Intepretations of the imagery. Connotations of references. Prosodics and rhythm. Telling me it sucks ass. It's entirely up to you.

 

[Reltne]

Sorry for being so late. As suggested These are my thoughts without reading anybody else's. Mostly word pickiness, sorry for any redundancies.

Argonauts

Thursday, yet a dirge to match
my dead excuses. To drag
through a decaying routine,
my eyes, seeking out behind
early morning shaded glasses
some kind of geist (I always was a fan of Phoebe Zeitgeist )
as commuting peers passes. "passes" sounds wrong. As written shouldn't it be "pass"?

And there, you.

Always someone, slightly hyper real
in the hoard of grey.
You, a new body every day,
but your impact close enough to feel.

To glow against a backdrop surface
of crowd, your face somehow
in relief to render presence.

Heading for a paradigm shift,
a quantum leap, and unafraid, and unafraid, a double cliché that actually works here.
I hope, I do believe.

Maybe you tread a path try 'Perhaps' to avoid redundancy?
run smooth by soles What? No P-o-W with 'souls'?
or maybe you are indeed
an argonaut, who knows? Word wants it Capitalized.

But I leave you, brushing closely by,
as a pioneer in my eyes. So you fuel
my dream to become, to travel too,
when the time one day is right.​

I would drop both 'as' and 'the'.