60 Years ago

[rgraham666]

Warning! This isn't a pleasant thread.

It was 60 years ago today that the first atomic weapon was used.

I am not going to discuss the ethics of it or the military usefulness of it.

I simply want us to to be aware of the results.

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

Pic 5

Pic 6

Pic 7

I hope that such a thing never happens again. A vain hope in all probability knowing what I know of human nature.

"Now I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

 

[oggbashan]

Colour

Pictures in colour exist as well.

Black and white images can distance us from the horror.

Compared with what is possible now, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki deaths were caused by very small bombs.

Og

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I wish I could remember his name or find the article that was recently published about the man who snuck back into the bomb site and took more pictures and reported many of the horrors.
He recently died and his son found his files. They are going to publish them in a book so people can understand the extent of the horror and what was covered up.

No matter how you look at it from a military standpoint or a moral standpoint...it's just wrong.


You have to be a strong soul to forgive something like that. Peace to all who suffered from this act of war.

 

[carsonshepherd]

"Now I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

Peace is not a political cause. thank you rob for your devotion to the principles of peace.

 

[minsue]

http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/02/55/42/41/0002554241397_215X215.jpg

 

[matriarch]

There are no words that will ever do justice to the horror and shame.

All we can do is pray it never, never happens again.

 

[McKenna]

Because it needed to be repeated:

Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

Peace is not a political cause.

 

[rgraham666]

Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.

My take on that phrase is, "A culture which ignores history has no past, and no future."

 

[Remec]

Pictures in colour exist as well.

Black and white images can distance us from the horror.

Compared with what is possible now, the Hiroshima and Nagasaki deaths were caused by very small bombs.

And, correct me if I've been misinformed, I've also heard that although the destruction was horrific for only coming from two bombs, that the bombing and resultant firestorm of Dresden was much worse. I never seem to hear anyone continue to go on about that one though.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Without trying to take away from this thread, if you are intent on remembering the history, the blasts at Hiroshima and nagasaki were the final acts in a war where barbarism was widespread. A war started in no small part by the nation on the recieving end of the atomic bombs.

I won't post pics or accounts of nanking or the bataan death march or the Railroad of death. But in remembering those who died in that blast be cognizant of the fact they were a tiny portion of those who lost their lives in that war.

 

[oggbashan]

And, correct me if I've been misinformed, I've also heard that although the destruction was horrific for only coming from two bombs, that the bombing and resultant firestorm of Dresden was much worse. I never seem to hear anyone continue to go on about that one though.

We do. Sir Arthur Harris, leader of Bomber Command, was denied honours because of it. His statue has been vandalised several times as a protest against the UK/US bombing campaigns of 1945. The bombing campaign against Germany is still very controversial for its final stages.

Toyko had more people killed and more houses destroyed by conventional bombing than were killed or destroyed at Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Firestorms in Toyko burnt or suffocated tens of thousands. Tokyo was much worse than Dresden. Whether Dresden was a legitimate military target is still debated.

How many died at Hiroshima? At Nagasaki? At Toyko? At Dresden?

We have reasonably accurate estimates but all the figures can be disputed. What is true for Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that people continued to die from the effects for many years afterwards. Those who survived Toyko and Dresden, once healed from their injuries, had a reasonable prospect of a normal life. The survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and those who went to those cities afterwards as rescuers, had a much reduced life expectancy and a reduced quality of life even if apparently uninjured at the time. Even their descendants suffer.

Og

 

[My I]

Peace is no more obtainable in this world than anarchy.

 

[fieryjen]

Peace is no more obtainable in this world than anarchy.

But Peace is always worth striving for.



Thank you for posting this.

 

[vogueboy]

But Peace is always worth striving for.



Thank you for posting this.

Amen to that.

 

[cheerful_deviant]

"I firmly believe that before many centuries more, science will be the master of man. The engines he will have invented will be beyond his strength to control. Some day science shall have the existence of mankind in its power, and the human race will commit suicide by blowing up the world." ~ Henry Adams, 1862

 

[elsol]

Without trying to take away from this thread, if you are intent on remembering the history, the blasts at Hiroshima and nagasaki were the final acts in a war where barbarism was widespread. A war started in no small part by the nation on the recieving end of the atomic bombs.

I won't post pics or accounts of nanking or the bataan death march or the Railroad of death. But in remembering those who died in that blast be cognizant of the fact they were a tiny portion of those who lost their lives in that war.

WWII Death Toll -- 55 million

Hiroshima, Japan (nuclear strike by US: 6 Aug. 1945): 92k
Nagasaki, Japan (nuclear strike by US: 9 Aug. 1945): 45k

In case anyone needs perspective, that's .0025 of the deaths in WWII.

Auschwitz 1.2 million

Truly one of the most depressing websites ever.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Wildcard Ky]

The bomb is indeed horrible. Hopefully, one will never have to be used again. I believe we made the right decision to use it and end the war, but also believe no one really understood the level of devastation until after it had happened.

 

[shereads]

This post isn't to condemn or condone the use of the atom bomb to end WWII, but to express some thoughts about why some of us mark the anniversary of the Enola Gay mission with a peculiar kind of grief and regret that's hard to describe.

The arguments in favor of employing The Bomb to end WWII are arguments of numbers, and they're perfectly logical. But the psychological implications of nuclear warfare have never been about numbers, but about horror.

For the first time, a weapon was purpose-built for indiscriminate mass killing.

Yes, traditional bombs and missiles kill innocent bystanders, too. So does a commercial aircraft if it's aimed at a tall building. But until a major city is wiped out by a biological or chemical weapon, the atom bomb remains the only weapon ever invented for the purpose of killing, maiming and terrorizing as many people as possible.

And unlike traditional weapons, this one didn't stop working when the mission was over. Birth defects and deaths from cancer made it possible to be born a casualty of war, a generation after the war was over.

Growing up during the Cold War, I'd look at pictures like the ones Rob posted and think, "This is what it will be like," and I'd wonder why anyone would want to be among the survivors. Crawling out of the backyard bomb shelter to face what's left might have held some appeal before weapons left invisible residue with a half-life.

At Ground Zero, you'd never know what hit you; a lucky break. A little farther out, you might be in the shadow of a building and live long enough to feel the pain. What I feared most were the circles of hell beyond that one: those who survived for a day or more, burned and sightless, stumbling across the rubble long enough to suspect there was nothing left but rubble. (A priest who walked into Hiroshima a few days after the bombing wrote about seeing a horse standing in the street with its skin and flesh burned away, so that the muscles were exposed to the sun. It was licking moisture from what had been a puddle on the pavement.)

There would be circles farther out from Ground Zero where people survived the blast, but not the aftermath. Radiation sickness, contaminated crops and water, genetic mutations that would punish babies conceived during peace time.

All those horror movies in the 1950s and 60s about giant mutant spiders and Evil Scientists were cheesily amusing, but they were inspired by our fear of The Bomb. We had unleashed a weapon we couldn't control.

~ ~ ~

Oppenheimer is said to have believed that the existence of the atom bomb would eventually force an end to war. When every state had a nuclear weapon aimed at its enemies, a global peace accord would be the only way for any state to assure its own survival.

Like the proponents of Mutually Assured Destruction during the nuclear arms race, Oppenheimer expected sanity to prevail.

He failed to predict the advent of the suicide bomber.

Happy 60th anniversary.

 

[vogueboy]

"World War Three will be fought with weapons of mass destruction. World War Four will be fought with sticks and stones." (Albert Einstein)

 

[BooMerengue]

Heres a web site for happy perusal...

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/List-of-historical-events-by-death-count

It's pretty sickening.

 

[shereads]

"I firmly believe that before many centuries more, science will be the master of man. The engines he will have invented will be beyond his strength to control. Some day science shall have the existence of mankind in its power, and the human race will commit suicide by blowing up the world." ~ Henry Adams, 1862

I'll bet people called him an alarmist.

 

[Weird Harold]

The arguments in favor of employing The Bomb to end WWII are arguments of numbers, and they're perfectly logical. But the psychological implications of nuclear warfare have never been about numbers, but about horror.

For the first time, a weapon was purpose-built for indiscriminate mass killing.
...

I'm compelled to point out that without Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- or the inevitible other cities that would have replaced them to provide horrific pictures -- there would be no "psychology of horror" to associate with nuclear weapons.

Your knowledge of military histiry is lacking if you truly believe that the atomic bomb was the first weapon "purpose built for indiscriminate mass killing" -- it wasn't even the first such weapon developed and employed in WWII.

All of your points are valid, but they are derived from what happened to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Up to the point where the Bomb was actually used, it was just another step in the long search for a "bigger firecracker" and better ways to kill more people with fewer "friendly" casualties.

The Greeks came up with Greek Fire to terrorize their enemies and kill them in a horrific way so as to destroy the will to fight. The Germans dveloped and employed poison gas in WWI for the same reason. Both are examples of weapons designed as much to be feared as to cause damage.

The Atom Bomb, OTOH was seen in 1945 (and even into the 1950's) as just a more powerful explosive -- just a more efficient way to do what was already being done to cities and civilians with conventional explosives and incendiary bombs. The "psychology of horror" didn't enter into the equation until the long-term effects on the citizens of Hiroshima an Nagasaki became known some ten years or more after the bombings -- some of the long-term effects on the survivors' grandchildren are still being discovered.

The decision to use the atomic bomb may have been about "numbers," but it was also rooted in ignorance of the long-term effects and international politics. If the bombs had not been used when they -- expending the entire arsenal of atomic weapons at that time -- the lesson of just how horrific atomic weapons are would have been a much harder and more horrific lesson; The US had the materials to build seven more bombs and the lessons could have been learned from nine destroyed cities instead of just two.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki may or may not have been necessary but the atomic bomb would have been used eventually because until the effects could be seen nobody could emotionally accept just how horrific those effects are.

Even today, with sixty years of additional knowledge and the examples of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there are people who think atomic bombs aren't "all that bad" and advocate the use of atomic weapons in some circumstances.

I mourn for Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- as I do for the cities of Tokyo, Dresden, and every other city destroyed horrifically from the skies in WWII -- but I also am grateful that their collective demise has taught most of the world's militaries and political leadership that there is such a thing as too much destruction. Let us hope that this annual remebrance of the beginning of the Atomic Age helps them remember that the end doesn't always justify the means and there are lines that should not be crossed.

 

[shereads]

"Nagasaki Journey"

~ photo essay by Yosuke Yamahata

http://www.exploratorium.edu/nagasaki/journey/journey25.html


Hisoshima survivor accounts

~ Hiroshima Peace Museum archive

I saw many people coming out of the center of the city. They were asking for help. Their skin was melted and hung around their arms. I realized something unusual had happened. I cannot describe what I really saw because it was like hell on the earth.

When I saw a very strong light, a flash, I put my arms over my face unconsciously. Almost instantly I felt my face was inflating. I thought I was directly hit by the bomb and was dying. I was proud of myself for dying for my country because we had been educated so. Shortly after, I felt my body flying in the air and then I lost consciousness.

When I was rescued, my face was inflated like a balloon. I wondered why my shirt had been burnt and hanging around my arms, I soon realized they were pieces of my skin. It was hell. I saw people looking for water and they died soon after they drank it.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

I was born too late to be traumatized by fears of the atomic bomb.

Instead, what traumatized me were the people responsible for controlling the atomic bomb’s use.

It is all the fault of a single documentary entitled The Atomic Cafe reviewing the atomic age and the beliefs held by Americans at that time.

It is composed of nothing but stock film from that era, combining the Duck and Cover campaign with Army training and demonstration films concerning atomic testing, and propaganda intended to pacify the citizenry, all mixed together into a comic stew.

I found it very funny to laugh at these people from half a century ago; amused as they exposed their quaint fears and reassurances.

At least it was until the penny dropped.

Then I realized that I was looking back upon the lies that had been reassuring yesterday, and I could not help asking myself: how laughable are the lies which reassure today?




Further information about The Atomic Cafe can be found at IMDb and The Flygirls Website.

 

[Weird Harold]

I was born too late to be traumatized by fears of the atomic bomb.
...
Then I realized that I was looking back upon the lies that had been reassuring yesterday, and I could not help asking myself: how laughable are the lies which reassure today?

I am old enough to have known the reality of the "Atomic Cafe." What you see as "lies" I see as incomplete information -- both as available to the strategists and as passed on the to the civilian population.

Even as a grade-schooler practicing duck and cover drills, I was bright enough to know that the reason for curling up under the desk was not to protect us but to make it easier to kiss our asses good-bye.

What you characterize as "lies" was, to the best of my knowledge, the best information available at the time -- even from the perspective of an additional fifty years experience.

It is sad that such power was wielded and controlled by such ignorance and only pure luck that humanity survived things like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the strategy of MAD. Childhood heroes like Gen Curtis LeMay have tarnished into naive madmen that only the grace of God saved the world from, but theydon't change the reality of growing up knowing that the world could end, literally, at any moment; "reassuring" propaganda not withstanding.