50% of British Medical Personnel foreign born?

[amicus]

I heard that statistic on “Sky News”, I believe, but have not been able to confirm it elsewhere.

As we all know Britain has ‘National Health’, Socialized Medicine, as do our neighbors to the north, Canada. I wonder if the numbers apply to Canadian physicians as well?,

What with British Colonies all over the world I can partially understand, although I wonder why doctors from India or Pakistan don't stay at home and why they are needed in Britain.

And of course the key question; why?

I have also noticed in the US over the years a growing number on non American Physicians and again, I wonder why. Are our medical schools not meeting the demand? Again; why?

A second note, also heard somewhere on the news, that those medical personnel in Britain who perpetrated a terrorist attack in Glasgow, Scotland, are not the usual ‘Marxist class struggle’ revolutionary activists. Instead they are well educated, well to do, upper middle class citizens with families, careers and property to lose when apprehended.

Anybody have a clue to understanding?

Amicus…

 

[gauchecritic]

A second note, also heard somewhere on the news, that those medical personnel in Britain who perpetrated a terrorist attack in Glasgow, Scotland, are not the usual ‘Marxist class struggle’ revolutionary activists. Instead they are well educated, well to do, upper middle class citizens with families, careers and property to lose when apprehended.

Anybody have a clue to understanding?

Amicus…

About personal struggle or that other than lumpen could possibly consider socialism a way forward seemingly in line with the Hippocratic oath?

 

[amicus]

About personal struggle or that other than lumpen could possibly consider socialism a way forward seemingly in line with the Hippocratic oath?

~~~

Wuzzat you attacking or defending the number three, Gauche?

Socialism...in line with the Hippocratic oath....of 'first do no harm?'



It takes about a decade of education, a whole lot of money and effort to become an accredited Physician, I think.

I suppose if a person inspired to become a doctor could get government financing and a guarantee of lifetime employment that one might well exchange one's freedom for security.

I, myself, would never invest that much hard work for a profession in which all choice was made by committee. I am just too damned much an individual who enjoys free choice.

amicus...

 

[Pure]

the leader of Egypt's main islamic movement was a physician.

 

[Boxlicker101]

About personal struggle or that other than lumpen could possibly consider socialism a way forward seemingly in line with the Hippocratic oath?

Your post is pretty confusing but I can't help but think that mass, random murder is about as far as one can get from the Hippocratic Oath.

 

[JustBarelyLegal]

Actually its more around 30% if that. Nurses its more. Will get back up statistics when I'm a little less inclined to irrationality

EDIT: GPs is about 30%, Nurses around 50%, flux for other staff, for example the IT staff, especially the software/programmer bods are almost 100% UK born.

 

[amicus]

Actually its more around 30% if that. Nurses its more. Will get back up statistics when I'm a little less inclined to irrationality

EDIT: GPs is about 30%, Nurses around 50%, flux for other staff, for example the IT staff, especially the software/programmer bods are almost 100% UK born.

~~~

Well, thanks JustBarelyLegal, and welcome... just a curiosity as I heard it on the news but could not google up a definitive answer.

amicus...

 

[ishtat]

?

It includes 2300 Iraqui mainly, Jordanian, Saudi, and Egyptian Doctors 55% of which were recruited by the NHS post 9/11 and 2003. ???.

The security checks if any appear to have been left largely up to the employer,the NHS. If this is the case it is perhaps just as well that the Health Minister Patricia Hewitt( who already had a reputation for studied incompetence) resigned about 6 days ago.

 

[amicus]

Thanks Ishtat...little dribbles of information...but I still don't have a handle on who, when, what, where and especially why...will keep nibbling away...


amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

It includes 2300 Iraqui mainly, Jordanian, Saudi, and Egyptian Doctors 55% of which were recruited by the NHS post 9/11 and 2003. ???.

The security checks if any appear to have been left largely up to the employer,the NHS. If this is the case it is perhaps just as well that the Health Minister Patricia Hewitt( who already had a reputation for studied incompetence) resigned about 6 days ago.

Just before getting fired, I suppose. I would presume the only "checks" they would have done would be on the doctors' degrees and areas of specialty. Maybe she felt that educated and professional persons would be above suspicion.

 

[oggbashan]

Sore point with me.

My youngest daughter, a junior doctor in the NHS, couldn't get a training post this year to be a general practitioner, what she has always wanted to be, because of the mess-up in the allocation of training in the NHS.

Some years ago, the medical schools, supported by the government, expanded their intake to supply the NHS with doctors. Even so only 1 out of 10 qualified applicants are accepted to be medical students. Now those students have qualified, have served time as overworked junior doctors in hospitals, they cannot get jobs because the NHS can't afford them. Why not? Because the government mismanaged hospital building. Thousands of UK trained doctors are now looking for posts abroad or else leaving the medical profession. Some of them will also have tens of thousands of pounds of debt from financing their studies, and now no prospect of the work for which they trained.

"UK-trained" doesn't necessarily mean UK-born but they are trained to UK standards. Many immigrant communites see medicine and other professions as a route to economic improvement for the whole extended family and to better integration within the UK, and why not? This country welcomes hard-working people who want to qualify as professionals. A few nutcases doesn't change the fact that the NHS survives on imported talent.

Og

 

[Liar]

Just before getting fired, I suppose. I would presume the only "checks" they would have done would be on the doctors' degrees and areas of specialty. Maybe she felt that educated and professional persons would be above suspicion.

Or maybe that them being brown is no special ground for suspicion.

 

[amicus]

Sore point with me.

My youngest daughter, a junior doctor in the NHS, couldn't get a training post this year to be a general practitioner, what she has always wanted to be, because of the mess-up in the allocation of training in the NHS.

Some years ago, the medical schools, supported by the government, expanded their intake to supply the NHS with doctors. Even so only 1 out of 10 qualified applicants are accepted to be medical students. Now those students have qualified, have served time as overworked junior doctors in hospitals, they cannot get jobs because the NHS can't afford them. Why not? Because the government mismanaged hospital building. Thousands of UK trained doctors are now looking for posts abroad or else leaving the medical profession. Some of them will also have tens of thousands of pounds of debt from financing their studies, and now no prospect of the work for which they trained.

"UK-trained" doesn't necessarily mean UK-born but they are trained to UK standards. Many immigrant communites see medicine and other professions as a route to economic improvement for the whole extended family and to better integration within the UK, and why not? This country welcomes hard-working people who want to qualify as professionals. A few nutcases doesn't change the fact that the NHS survives on imported talent.

Og

~~~

I am not shy about saying I totally oppose socialized medicine and willing any time to explain why. But I read your post Ogg, a couple times and wish I understood more.

Does the NHS pay lower salaries to medical people than a free market elsewhere would provide? Is that why they import workers? And does the quality of medical care remain the same?

amicus...

 

[CharleyH]

I heard that statistic on “Sky News”, I believe, but have not been able to confirm it elsewhere.

As we all know Britain has ‘National Health’, Socialized Medicine, as do our neighbors to the north, Canada. I wonder if the numbers apply to Canadian physicians as well?,

What with British Colonies all over the world I can partially understand, although I wonder why doctors from India or Pakistan don't stay at home and why they are needed in Britain.

And of course the key question; why?

I have also noticed in the US over the years a growing number on non American Physicians and again, I wonder why. Are our medical schools not meeting the demand? Again; why?

A second note, also heard somewhere on the news, that those medical personnel in Britain who perpetrated a terrorist attack in Glasgow, Scotland, are not the usual ‘Marxist class struggle’ revolutionary activists. Instead they are well educated, well to do, upper middle class citizens with families, careers and property to lose when apprehended.

Anybody have a clue to understanding?

Amicus…

I will start by saying that the United States has THE WORST MEDICAL SYSTEM ANYWHERE, barring 3rd world countries, although it's a close run. When it costs practically a years wage to have a baby and when you have to TIP nurses to get good medical service as an American OR A FOREIGNER? There is a problem. Isn't the medical credo to HELP and do no harm and NOT to make the most money you can off of some unlucky sucker?

Put bluntly, Ami, America sucks when it comes to taking care of their own (therefore I have always wondered how the people of the country could be so damned patriotic, as an aside), but physicians are paid well in America ... by the people willing to pay and at the expense of those who cannot. There is no standard or limit to payment on medical treatment or on prescription drugs, which is why greedy doctors (so much for the Hippocratic oath) from all over the world go to America. NEVER in my lifetime would I EVER want to be treated by an American doctor. The credo there is that if you can pay to live? Well, you probably will. ). As for the rest?

The shortage of doctors in GB and Canada is due to a lot of problems, though. Which would you like to start with?

The BMA? (In Canada the CMA or the OMA or the ABA or the BCMA).
Money?
The prejudice? (Foreigners are not welcome?)
Location? (Everyone wants to be urban and no one wants to practice in smaller towns?)
Age? The population is aging and so are the doctors and there aren't enough GPs to go around?

This is a short list.

 

[amicus]

CharlieH "...The AMA? (In Canada the CMA or the OMA or the ABA or the BCMA).
Money?
The prejudice? (Foreigners are not welcome?)
Location? (Everyone wants to be urban and no one wants to practice in smaller towns?)
Age? The population is aging and so are the doctors and there aren't enough GPs to go around?

This is a short list..."

~~~


Gads Charly, CAPS and all to emphasize your point.

Not gonna take you about about America's medical system although I will state that it is known to be the best in the world from just about every source of information available.

Your, 'short list', well...it still begs the question in my mind.

I 'know' that Socialized Medicine is not the answer to providing affordable quality health care for all. I know that because it is 'wrong' to force people to provide services, (doctors and nurses), and force people to accept the dictates of a 'committee' to determine the kind and quality of service one receives.

I also 'know', that as a free market place will put a McDonald's on every corner, and that market place will provide the services demanded by the public if left to function as a market should.

We don't quite have a 'free market' in any area of our economy, rather a 'mixed' one with government competing with tax funds and subsidies in many areas.

I suspect collusion by the AMA and Medical colleges to keep the number of GP's limited, like union labor, to keep the price of services high. I will address that issue in a book I am working on.

I don't really know your opinion on a 'command economy' where government controls everything but regardless, I will proffer the same question I always do in such cases: By what ethical and moral standard do you advocate the use of force in human endeavors?

amicus

 

[Boxlicker101]

I will start by saying that the United States has THE WORST MEDICAL SYSTEM ANYWHERE, barring 3rd world countries, although it's a close run. When it costs practically a years wage to have a baby and when you have to TIP nurses to get good medical service as an American OR A FOREIGNER? There is a problem. Isn't the medical credo to HELP and do no harm and NOT to make the most money you can off of some unlucky sucker?

Put bluntly, Ami, America sucks when it comes to taking care of their own (therefore I have always wondered how the people of the country could be so damned patriotic, as an aside), but physicians are paid well in America ... by the people willing to pay and at the expense of those who cannot. There is no standard or limit to payment on medical treatment or on prescription drugs, which is why greedy doctors (so much for the Hippocratic oath) from all over the world go to America. NEVER in my lifetime would I EVER want to be treated by an American doctor. The credo there is that if you can pay to live? Well, you probably will. ). As for the rest?

The shortage of doctors in GB and Canada is due to a lot of problems, though. Which would you like to start with?

The BMA? (In Canada the CMA or the OMA or the ABA or the BCMA).
Money?
The prejudice? (Foreigners are not welcome?)
Location? (Everyone wants to be urban and no one wants to practice in smaller towns?)
Age? The population is aging and so are the doctors and there aren't enough GPs to go around?

This is a short list.

I would hardly call it the worst in the world. People come from all over for treatment at American medical facilities. They could go to hospitals etc. in other nations but they choose American. Ir might be the most expensive or the worsat financial bargain, but that is another matter.

 

[gauchecritic]

By what ethical and moral standard do you advocate the use of force in human endeavors?

amicus

I've possibly found the refutation of your unsupported, unprovable antithetic question. Answer this and you answer your own.

By what ethical and moral standard do you advocate standing aloof in the face of tragedy?

This being a very complicated question involving tax, charity, social responsibility, the bottom line, fair trade, profit and loss, capital investment, supply and demand (simple and complex), foreign trade, financial benefit, globalisation, localisation, unions, bosses, health and welfare, the class system (apparent or intrinsic), sociology, anthropology, history, economics, politics and everything where people might take a stand, all subjugated to the single word 'tragedy', I don't expect an answer any time soon.

 

[CharleyH]

I would hardly call it the worst in the world. People come from all over for treatment at American medical facilities. They could go to hospitals etc. in other nations but they choose American. Ir might be the most expensive or the worsat financial bargain, but that is another matter.

Box, Box, Box - Love you to death, but you really have not experienced much in the world have you.

 

[amicus]

I've possibly found the refutation of your unsupported, unprovable antithetic question. Answer this and you answer your own.

By what ethical and moral standard do you advocate standing aloof in the face of tragedy?

This being a very complicated question involving tax, charity, social responsibility, the bottom line, fair trade, profit and loss, capital investment, supply and demand (simple and complex), foreign trade, financial benefit, globalisation, localisation, unions, bosses, health and welfare, the class system (apparent or intrinsic), sociology, anthropology, history, economics, politics and everything where people might take a stand, all subjugated to the single word 'tragedy', I don't expect an answer any time soon.

~~~

An answer to what, anytime soon?

The bare bones are that I advocate human freedom, that level to which civilizations have been aspiring forever.

You advocate human slavery, that level from which civilizations have been aspiring to escape, forever.

Like many myopic liberals, I suggest you tend to over complicate and over intellectualize and thereby complicate beyond reclamation much of what you attempt to communicate.

The general reason why you and others do this, I surmise, is because you have no moral axioms or self evident truths to build on and bluster about to solve problems without an understanding of the nature of the problem.

The quest for human freedom, the conflict between good and evil, is a humanity long endeavor. If you have not accepted that individual human freedom is at the base of all moral and ethical decisions, they you simply have no means to solve problems or answer questions.

amicus veritas

 

[CharleyH]

CharlieH "...The AMA? (In Canada the CMA or the OMA or the ABA or the BCMA).
Money?
The prejudice? (Foreigners are not welcome?)
Location? (Everyone wants to be urban and no one wants to practice in smaller towns?)
Age? The population is aging and so are the doctors and there aren't enough GPs to go around?

This is a short list..."

~~~


Gads Charly, CAPS and all to emphasize your point.

Not gonna take you about about America's medical system although I will state that it is known to be the best in the world from just about every source of information available.

Your, 'short list', well...it still begs the question in my mind.

I 'know' that Socialized Medicine is not the answer to providing affordable quality health care for all. I know that because it is 'wrong' to force people to provide services, (doctors and nurses), and force people to accept the dictates of a 'committee' to determine the kind and quality of service one receives.

I also 'know', that as a free market place will put a McDonald's on every corner, and that market place will provide the services demanded by the public if left to function as a market should.

We don't quite have a 'free market' in any area of our economy, rather a 'mixed' one with government competing with tax funds and subsidies in many areas.

I suspect collusion by the AMA and Medical colleges to keep the number of GP's limited, like union labor, to keep the price of services high. I will address that issue in a book I am working on.

I don't really know your opinion on a 'command economy' where government controls everything but regardless, I will proffer the same question I always do in such cases: By what ethical and moral standard do you advocate the use of force in human endeavors?

amicus

If I said what I wanted without caps and smilies, you know people would not 'GET" me. I realise there is no such thing as a free market. American medical practices are much different than the rest of the world, though. Kiss Ami - interesting, must go to bed.

 

[amicus]

If I said what I wanted without caps and smilies, you know people would not 'GET" me. I realise there is no such thing as a free market. American medical practices are much different than the rest of the world, though. Kiss Ami - interesting, must go to bed.

~~~


G'night Charley, sleep well. (forehead of course )

ami

 

[oggbashan]

~~~

I am not shy about saying I totally oppose socialized medicine and willing any time to explain why. But I read your post Ogg, a couple times and wish I understood more.

Does the NHS pay lower salaries to medical people than a free market elsewhere would provide? Is that why they import workers? And does the quality of medical care remain the same?

amicus...

1. The UK didn't provide enough funds for student places to maintain the number of doctors required by the UK in all medical services including private. There was a shortfall that needed to be met by importing trained doctors. In recent years they increased medical student places but didn't compensate by reducing imported doctors so now we have unemployed doctors.

2. The trained doctors (and other medical staff) that came to the UK received additional training that was either not available or impossibly expensive in their own countries.

3. Trained doctors and nursing staff from Commonwealth countries were paid more in the UK than at home and could save to set up back home as General Practitioners etc. Dentists from Australia and New Zealand came to the UK for many years to work in the NHS, build up capital, and then return to their own country to buy or set up a dental practice.

4. Some sub-Saharan commonwealth countries have been complaining to the UK that they are short of medical staff, particularly nurses, because all their trained staff are being recruited for the UK's NHS.

5. The political and business management of the NHS has been appalling. Changes of direction and policy are, and have been frequent, with no real appreciation of the long term consequences of actions. The worst has been PFI - Private Funding Initiative - that allows contractors to build new hospitals and lease them to the NHS. The PFI contractors have been making large profits from these deals but the part of the NHS getting the new hospital was never asked "Can you AFFORD this new hospital?". Almost invariably the answer would have been No. What was needed was improved facilities that delivered better care at lower cost. What was built was improved facilities that deliver worse care because of staff cuts to pay for the increased cost of the new facilities and the increased cost is ongoing for ever - the debt can NEVER be paid off. This has driven many parts of the NHS into debt and major staff cuts, affecting patient care. The local managers had and have no control over the PFI process but the politicians can claim "Look, we built you a brand new hospital...".

Og

Edited for PS: The NHS needs consistent and long term management. Whether or not you agree with socialised medicine, an organisation the size of the NHS needs competent management. Any competent manager would never take a job in the NHS because the politicians do not allow NHS managers to manage.

PPS. My doctor daughter has a job. She's lucky. Many of her friends haven't.