5-22-02 The Earl

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
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I hope I've got the right date. I never check.

Our next selection comes from the Earl who has been wonderful with his ideas both here and in the Author's Hangout. He has requested that we take a look at the series, and I generally find critiquing a whole story simpler than one. However, the rules are one link. Those of you who prefer to do one story, the Earl has requested that you read the second story. For those who'll do the whole series, both are included.

I'll be back in a bit with some questions to, I hope, prompt discussion. Anyone who has a question that you think is good for discussion, please, ask!


Do you do feedback on a series? If so, then I'd appreciate anything on my Seducing Dawn series. Whenever I ask for constructive feedback, people go straight to my worst story and tell me what's wrong with that, so I'd appreciate feedback on my better ones. The second one's better IMHO.

Seducing Dawn - http://www.literotica.co.uk/stories/showstory.php?id=43477
Seducing Dawn 2 Preferred - http://www.literotica.co.uk/stories/showstory.php?id=44174

Thankyou

The Earl
 
Earl,

I decided to post early and avoid KM's questions.

You've got an interesting story here but, IMHO, it needs a lot of work. I've done a line-by-line type edit on your opening sequence which, to me, seemed especially rough.

The sex scenes were much smoother, although you repeated some phrases such as "move down her body" and "burst" appeared twice in one sentence. You also might want to book up on ellipsis and parenthetical phrases.

As for the story, I kept wanting some background, especially on the girl. Where were they and what was that nice girl with the "waiflike" figure doing around Tara and especially Willow?

I hope some of this helps. And remember, all of this is strictly my humble opinion which means it's probably worth even less than it cost you. RF

--

"Oh my God." Tara sounded shocked at the scene she saw, she must have just walked in as we finished. (THE FIRST SENTENCE IN ANY STORY IS VITAL AND IMHO, THIS ONE NEEDS A MAJOR OVERHAUL. FOR INSTANCE, THAT OPENING QUOTE MAKES "SOUNDED SHOCKED" SEEM REDUNDANT. I'D OMIT THE ENTIRE PHRASE. BEGIN WITH THE QUOTE, THEN "TARA HAD WALKED IN JUST AS WE FINISHED.) I was too exhausted to move or even care, but Willow sat up to deal with Tara… (MAYBE IT’S A TYPO, BUT THIS NEEDS A PERIOD, NOT AN ELLIPSIS)

Tara appeared frozen with shock at the sight that had (OMIT “had”) confronted her on her entrance. (OMIT “on her entrance”) "I just came back because my flight was delayed…I heard…what were you…I don't?" she stuttered. (OMIT “I just came back because” HER HAVING COME BACK IS SELF-EVIDENT.)

Willow got up and retrieved her bra from where she had flung it. (OMIT “from where she had flung it.” UNLESS YOU ADD SOMETHING LIKE, “IN HER PASSION” OR “BEFORE WE DOVE INTO BED”) I propped myself up on my elbows to see (MAYBE OMIT "to see" THEN ADD "AND SAW?) her remove something from one of the (BRA’S) cups. There was a sudden flash and I had to shield my eyes, flopping (BACK) down on the bed again.( IF YOU USE “BACK” THEN OMIT “AGAIN”) (FOR WHAT IT’S WORTH, I’D RE-WRITE THAT SENTENCE ALONG THESE LINES, “THERE WAS A SUDDEN (DESCRIBE) FLASH. I AUTOMATICALLY SHIELDED MY EYES AND FELL BACK ONTO THE BED.”) Willow leant over me and gently brushed a sprig of herbs over my face.

"Lethe's Bramble. Very effective for memory spells. I think there's just enough for you too. Wouldn't want you reminding Tara of what you've forgotten now, would we?" (THAT LAST SENTENCE THREW ME. HOW CAN SHE REMIND TARA OF SOMETHING SHE’S FORGOTTEN?)

Odd, I never usually sleep nude. (EITHER OMIT “usually” OR OMIT “never” THEN INSERT “DON’T” BETWEEN “usually DON’T sleep” AND YOU MIGHT ALSO INSERT “IN THE” BETWEEN “sleep IN THE nude”.)

As I went downstairs I heard raised voices and slunk back round the corner where I wouldn't be seen. I hated Willow and Tara arguing especially when they tried to pretend they weren't in front of me. (THE SENTENCE, AS CONSTRUCTED, MAKES IT SOUND LIKE THEY TRIED TO PRETEND THEY WEREN’T IN FRONT OF HER?)
 
'Buffy' Fan

Although not a hard core Buffy fan, I've seen enough episodes to see where you're coming from.
 
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Earl,

Sorry I am a little late getting my feedback in. I don't own a TV and I have never watched "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" so I had to do some research on the net.

On to the discussion.

First of all, taken as a single story and completely disregarding the "celebrity" aspect, this story had a pretty decent plot and the characters moved through it, changed, developed.

I would have liked it better if the dialog had been seperated out, given it's own paragraph. This always makes the story read easier.

The biggest problem I had with the story was the language. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is set in California, yet you are English. Your language betrayed you and didn't fit with the story setting.

Having Dawn call it an "Arse" was the biggest giveaway, but all of you're word and spelling choices were British, not American. In most stories that is not a problem, but if you are writing about Americans then you should have them speak like Americans. Just as if I were writing about an Englishman I should have him speak like an Englishman.

Well anyway, that's my opinion. It was a good story, it was written fairly well and I hope you keep writing.

Ray
 
Okay, I will admit up front that I have not seen even one episode of "Buffy", and the only thing I know of "Buffy" is that Sarah Michelle Geller has the lead role. What the series consists of, I don't have the foggiest idea.

Okay, with that preface...

I took the plunge and read both stories, because I didn't have the background info on "Buffy".

I noticed some slight grammar problems, but you seemed to have already gotten some good feedback regarding that, so I won't rehash.

I did think the stories were very sexual - from a male's perspective, which I presume would be your targeted audience. (Of course, this is just my opinion. Another female may have another "take" on it) Overall, I thought both stories were well written. Both stories moved along at a good pace, and were interesting to read.

My issues are minor, but they are:

1. The title was confusing to me. I was expecting Dawn to be seduced. Instead, I found she was being manipulated. Maybe to the male pysche that can be seduction. A female's POV would be very different. Dawn wasn't seduced as much as she was taken.

2. I was expecting some variation in the second story. More specific? Definitely a threesome. Yes, most certainly. Instead, having read both stories back to back, I found Chapter 2 to simply be the same story as Chapter 1, but with Tara exchanging places with Willow.

3. I suspect this is a male persective, but between women, actual intercourse is not necessary. If there is penetration, it is usually foreplay. Sometimes a strapon is used, yes. But most often between women, we use our fingers, lips, and tongues. This is what I meant when I said your stories would appeal to a male audience. To be frank, I was mildly disappointed when Tara came back into the room with a strap-on. If a threesome was not in the works, then it would have been refreshing to have Tara bring Dawn to oral pleasure.

A good story, however, and I believe your intended audience will appreciate your efforts. If there is a Chapter 3, I would be interested in seeing how you might handle all 3 women. Well, that is, provided Willow comes back!
 
Hi, TE.

It's not my cuppa, but let me try to think in a teen girl's viewpoint.

Well, there's flashy magic, and a helluva lot of sex detail, ok, but look at the passage quoted below.

It's awkward, "causing her to..." I don't imagine an 18 yr old talking like that.

'her pudenda and my tongue" All of a sudden very medical; besides, the girl has one pussy, hence "pudendum" singular [see postscript]; I must say in 500 erotic stories I haven't seen the word in singular or plural! Have you been reading Krafft Ebbing a little too much? :)

"Mash my lips into..." That's more like a teen.

continued after the quote

[Quote from TheEarl]
I started to lick the outsides of her pussy, moving from her lips inwards, enjoying every second as my inexperienced tongue began to affect Tara, causing her to move her hips rhythmically, trying to get more of her pudenda in contact with my tongue. I pushed my tongue gently into her, enjoying the feelings that I was creating in my new lover and started to mash my lips into the lower part of her pussy.
[end]

On to the rest of the story:
Try to keep the voice consistent. Also the ideas. Here's a virgin who knows when a dildo hits her G spot.

Here's a teen who, besides the words already mentioned, uses words like 'suffused' and 'wrought'.

In a word, you as yourself, having lots of vocabulary, keep intruding into the character. Perhaps a third person story would avoid this problem. For you can have a narrator talk of a teen and say,
"The dildo penetrated her pudendum," but you can't have a teen, unless an utter anatomy-wonk say, "the dildo penetrated my pudendum.'

Sooo. It's a bit of sexy froth, with an audience, so I won't address plot and character. But the above remarks I hope will be useful in better reaching that audience, in effect, speaking (when you use first person narration) more in their language. I think you can do very well, in the end.

Jack.
PS. My _Oxford Dictionary of Current English_ says that the Brits prefer 'pudenda'. I suppose the analogy is with 'genitals'. The presence of Brit words has been noted by others. Yet the word in any form sticks out like a sore thumb, imho.
 
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Thankyou all for your feedback. I must admit I wasn't expecting such a rapid response. Writing a story for a select audience (Anyone who doesn't watch BTVS will miss a hell of a lot of the plot) means that I don't get as many reads or useful feedback.

Just addressing a couple of things:

First, thank you KM for your kind words. It's actually quite nice to know that my words are appreciated and not just laughed over.

RF: I didn't write much background as most people who watch the show would know the characters intimately. I'll probably put a bit more in for the casual reader next time. You have picked up on the major flaw in the story which was the opening couple of paragraphs, which I'm not pleased with. I struggled slightly to get going on Chapter 2.

WifeSeducer: Dawn isn't 18 in the series, but I'd moved the stoyr on to when she is 18, otherwise I couldn't write it for Lit.

Ray: I'm flattered that you took the time to research the series when you don't even have a TV. I've never been to America and don't have any American friends. I did try and structure the conversation in the character's speech patterns, but I just couldn't bring myself to write ass. It doesn't seem right somehow. Must try harder!

SexyChele: I'm a little upset as I was going for a female perspective (writing in the first person female). Does everyone else think that it was more of a bloke's story? Must work on that then.

Abashed Dreamer: In England pudenda is not an anatomical term, but more slang. Sorry, I have a large vocabulary anyway and I've had people telling me to use less words and try to be less English in my writing. Hopefully next time, I'll not scare off every American with my first spelling of arse.


To everyone. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my stories and I'll try and take on board your suggestions.

A few questions for people:

Is my story a bloke's story? SexyChele said it didn't appeal to her and I don't want to alienate half my audience (esp if that half is the part I'm aiming to get).

Should I tone down my Englishness and vocabulary to make my stories more accessable.

What did you think of the sex scenes. Were they too long, too short, not hot enough, etc.

Thank you all.

The Earl
 
TheEarl said:
Is my story a bloke's story? SexyChele said it didn't appeal to her and I don't want to alienate half my audience (esp if that half is the part I'm aiming to get).

Earl, Not really sure. I didn't really get into the sex scenes. The conversion of Willow into a she-male transvestite kinda weirded me out but overall I would say the sex scenes probably would appeal more to men than to women but I really can't say that for sure. I think that is usually a stereotype and a far reaching generalization. I know a women who would really get into those sex scenes and men who wouldn't (me).

Should I tone down my Englishness and vocabulary to make my stories more accessable.

The only time I would recomend you "tone down my Englishness" is when you are writing dialog spoken by a non-English type person. Your vocabulary is just fine for a narrative and for English dialog, but doesn't really sound right for an American or a Canadian.

What did you think of the sex scenes. Were they too long, too short, not hot enough, etc.

I liked the length of the sex scenes and felt they were pretty hot. But I did get a little freaked when Willow suddenly grew a magical cock. Just thinking of being in bed with a woman and then suddenly watching her sprout a shaft threw me way off. But let me make this VERY clear. THAT IS JUST ME. IT DOSEN'T MEAN YOU SHOULDN'T DO THINGS LIKE THAT You can and should write your stories like you want. There are a lot of people who will enjoy that scene.

Well I hope my opinion helps.

Ray
 
TheEarl said:

A few questions for people:

Is my story a bloke's story? SexyChele said it didn't appeal to her and I don't want to alienate half my audience (esp if that half is the part I'm aiming to get).

Should I tone down my Englishness and vocabulary to make my stories more accessable.

What did you think of the sex scenes. Were they too long, too short, not hot enough, etc.

Thank you all.

The Earl



I can give you my answers....

1. Please remember that I am only one female of how many who visit Lit daily. I was really hoping another female would jump in here and give her opinion, as I simply responded with what I felt. And I acknowledge that I could be very wrong! It will be interesting to see if anyone else picked this up besides me.

And, please, don't be upset over my opinion. That's just what it is - my opinion. Besides, I have to admire the fact that you took on a female perspective. I would like to do a story from a male perspective, but haven't yet got up the courage. Guys can be a tough audience! So, kudos to you for trying this!

2. I suppose I've read so many stories written by writers from the UK that I when I see "arse" I immediately translate it to "ass" for my American brain. But then, I know a couple of people in the UK and Australia, so I'm used to the vernacular and it doesn't bother me.

I do have to admit that you got me with "pudenda"! I actually thought is was some foreign language or special "witch" talk! Yeah, I know, my vocabulary could use improvement!

I do know that there are Americans who are somewhat put off by the term "arse". It's just not used here in the States, and for some reason it bothers some people. I think if you are going to use slang that is common in the UK, you have to consider the scene and the audience you are writing to. I have noticed that some Europeans also use "arse" as well. But I would say if you want to appeal to a mainly American audience, picking up some slang from the States would help. Heck, there's enough of us here to probably help you out with that!

3. I thought the sex scenes were well done and very erotic. I personally would have liked to see more build up - fondling, kissing - but I found what you wrote to be well done. I wouldn't go much longer, though. Sometimes marathon sex scenes just go overboard. (Yeah, like look who's talking! :rolleyes: )
 
Toning down Englishness. Interesting consideration.

You've got a problem with this story. You didn't create the characters and you're writing a story where your readers generally have more than a passing familiarity with the characters and will probably get pissed if you don't write them "true to form."

The fact of the matter is that these characters are Americans. The story and plot are American. It's written and created in an American vernacular. English dialect does not work with American characters and plot. If there are English characters in the story, then they must speak and think UK. American characters must speak and think American.

Your word choices have to fit the character or they don't make sense to the reader. I'm not really familiar with fan fiction, but I've known enough Trekkies in my time to understand that if you don't get the details right they get really pissy about it.

Most word processors have two features that'll help you with future installments of this story. One is the grammar checker. You can select the flavor English to check it with. Move out of UK and into American and run it over. It'll point out dialect trouble.

The other one is "find and replace." Write arse through the whole thing. When you're done do a find and replace. You never even have to see it change.

Word choice is a big problem that's been pointed out. I'm pretty hardline about it. The choice of words must be in keeping with the character. No matter what your vocabulary is, you have to use the character's vocabulary. You have to use the character's dialect. You have to use the character's vernacular.

Writing to a specific gender is pretty much a pipe dream at Literotica. You're writing to a genre, not a specific target. I realize that a lot of men are really into getting women off with their writing and could care less about jerked cock. If you're interested in picking up women as readers, then spend a lot of time cruising through the stories written by women. Note the way they're written and in particular how the characters are developed. What they think, what they get off on.

To get into the story itself, you have some difficulties with pacing. You rushed to quickly through a story and it came out a little contrived. Couple that with the voice and it feels quite a bit off. Whisper, the genius, and I had a nice discussion about shorts versus novellas yesterday. I write shorts and she writes novellas. I'm just using the term for the purposes of clarification. You've got a novella condensed into a short. The problem is that this makes it feel rushed and shallow because the characters were given short shrift in development.

Part 2 was worthy of about 4 times as many words as you used. You could probably get a good sized book out of the plot. It read more as a dramatic synopsis than a story because of the plot. When you write a short you're not telling the whole story. You're taking a pivotal portion of the story and highlighting it. It's complete, but it's not whole.

I hope I'm not confusing you here, I'm starting to confuse myself. I think it's cause I can only remember about five sentences into the past. Anyway.

When you create the plot, think about all the development that has to go into it to make the characters come alive rather than just play along. Particularly when you're doing fanfic and you've got a specific tone, voice, and character already chosen for you. You have to work all of that in as well. You'll want your words to feel just like what you see when you write.

I would suggest that you do character, description, and plot sketches while you're watching the show. VCRs are handy for this.

:)
 
I admit I only skimmed the stories, Earl, but I hope my comments will still apply. (I've never watched a Buffy episode in my life.)

As far as bloke's stories vs. women's stories, there is a difference. In my observation of stories written by men, generally, they're action oriented. Everything focuses on the physical aspects of sex, similar to a play by play.

Women write more often about the action in tandem with the motivation and/or emotions that occur during the sex. Women are emotional creatures. That's why it's difficult to seduce us when we're upset, why it's easy for us to not be in the mood. Our sexual excitement is connected with our emotions.

For instance:

"Take off your nightgown." The order was barked and for some reason I obeyed without question.

I find myself immediately wondering, why the hell did she just obey? If this is her first lesbian encounter, I would expect to see more about her thoughts and reactions to this. Think about if your same sex roommate suddenly told you to strip and then kissed you. A zillion thoughts would run through your head, right? What the hell is this? Did I come on to her? Is this wrong? Should I stop her? Do I like this? Or perhaps as a man you're not able to do that. Maybe men's brains aren't wired to think when sex is involved. (I'm being serious! I mean no offense.)

So my advice is, if you want to target women in particular, include the thoughts and feelings of the characters. The sex scenes will instantly develop more depth. Just make sure the thoughts, feelings and reactions are realistic. To check that, just have a gal read your story before submitting it.

Hope this helps.
 
Or perhaps as a man you're not able to do that. Maybe men's brains aren't wired to think when sex is involved.

No offence taken Whispersecret. I always maintain that bloke don't have enough blood for both ends of their body; if sex comes on the agenda, all blood supply to the brain shuts off.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I sometimes prefer mindless "You suck" criticism to the kind where I know the person criticising is actually right, but everything that's good for you tastes nasty, so I appreciate all constructive criticism.

The Earl
 
Earl,

I just read your part 2 story and enjoyed it. The sex scenes were good in length and I loved that it wasn't all centered around the act itself. Your foreplay was soft and enjoyable. Thanks.

Maybe it's just me, but I would lke to know more about what is going on inside the minds of your characters. What do they think, feel, want? Again, I certainly may not be typical, but I find that I can feel more of what the characters feel if I know more about the feelings in their souls, not just on their skin.

Thanks for sharing this with us. You have courage to open yourself, and I admire that *smile*

Pretty Girl
 
As someone who has watched a few epsoides of Buffy I was able to relate to the characters more easierly then the people who haven't seen the show.
I think you showed sides of their characters that are reflected on the show and built on that for the sex scenes.
My questions for you are how are you going to bring Willow back? Shouldn't Tara have rescued her when she was taken in the spell collapse, yes I know she was mad at her but just thought it would be in character with Tara to do that.
I did enjoy the story proberly more because I knew who the charaters were already.
 
The first BtVS fanatic reply

I’ve devoured every episode of Buffy and developed crushes on all the main characters, except for Riley. Dawn makes me wince, but at 18 I’d imagine she’s less annoying. Here is my spin on what HASN’T been covered, since everyone above did a great job of commenting on Britishisms and awkward language.

I am missing a LOT of what makes Dawn Dawn. This was mentioned above; the narrative she uses is totally OOC for an 18-year-old former brat, and a virgin to boot. I think some dialogue would put her more in-character, if you can work it in with the mind control and all. Is it simply frustrated lust that makes Willow go for her, or is it the special Dawniness we all know and, um, know? If it's the latter, show the reader what Dawn is like! Right now, she's a pawn, and pawns are rarely sexy.

You really like the new Willow, don't you? The Big Bad? This is in-character, for sure. In Chapter 2, when Tara walks out on her, I'd add some undertones of hysteria to Willow BEFORE she explodes and tries to work that permanent love spell. It caught me off-guard. It's very hard for me to find anything Willow does wrong, so forgive me if I've missed something.

Tara...Her dialogue is very much like the old, insecure Tara, which is chronologically incompatible with the New Willow. If you don't care about continuity, you're doing her well. I don't see ANY Tara wielding a strap-on, though. Dildo, yes. I don't see her being that dominant, old or new. With Dawn being a virgin (albeit an inexplicably knowledgable one), she would naturally take the lead, but that's a little extreme.

I see it being entirely likely that crushes would develop between these three. You took it in the uninnocent way of Willow bewitching Dawn. There is no seduction. From my female perspective, I was antsy with the shemaleism of Willow and, as stated above, skeptical of the strap-on-wielding Tara. I saw an AWFUL lot of similarity in the sex scenes of Ch. 1 and Ch. 2. You also probably got lots of angry feedback from anti-MC people, but who cares? I personally think you could have made it sexier and less like rape; like I said, the thought of Dawn developing a crush on Willow is reasonable, which would make the MC less sudden and unpleasant. That's about it. I am moderately interested in another chapter, because I like how you write (with the exception of pudenda).
 
Thanks all for the help. I had vague thoughts about a third chapter (It wouldn't take Einstein to figure out where the story would go from here), but I've decided there's a little too much wrong with this series and trying to write an addendum using the feedback you've given would jar with the first two. Okay so they weren't perfect, but they did fit together.

Anyone who's interested I'm considering writing a new story with the same characters, or at least within Buffy.

Quint: I actually wrote this before the Big Bad Willow. Honestly. I submitted it just as the new series started in England (hence Buffy being dead), so I should win some kind of award for precognition. I'm actually so pleased that you liked my portrayal of Tara; that was the bit I felt most proud of.

Thanks to everyone who's given help who has never seen the series before in their lives; I appreciate how hard it must have been to struggle with a story written for people who know these characters inside out. Thanks to everyone who's a big fan of Buffy and commented as I really needed an outside opinion on how I portrayed the characters. God this is turning into an Oscar acceptance speech.

Cheers then.

The Earl
 
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