5-11-02 Rumple Foreskin

[KillerMuffin]

Despite the fact that Mr. Foreskin hasn't seen fit to grace our little corner of Lit for a while, there is no disputing that he has participated. As a participant, he's entitled to the discussion.

Note to all of our happy fans, if you want your story raked over the coals, you have to do some raking of your own, no less than two stories prior to yours being put up.

Without further lecture, Rumple Foreskin!

To Whom It May Concern and/or KillerMuffin,

In light of Mickie's recent departure, I'm not sure if this is still the place to ask for pain and suffering in the form of critiques. But I'll go ahead and leap into the breach (or whatever it is) and ask that my latest humble effort be giving a good working over.

Cindy's Sex Seminar (Erotic Coupling) is at: http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=41555
and waiting for either bouquets and blessings or slings and arrows.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[KillerMuffin]

Some points to ponder as you finish your critiques and begin thinking about discussion:

1) Did the title of the story do it justice? When you think of titles of stories, do you have any specific considerations?

2) Third person omniscience and the joys of POV swapping. Moving from one person's "shoulder" to another's is one of the perks of this POV. How is it managed effectively? How is it not? What are some applications in spots like dialogue, sex, backstory, and descriptive narrative?

3) Names vs. pronouns. The concern regarding repetition is often expressed in both bases. What is the most effective method of using both names and pronouns through the course of the story?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

A GOOD CRITIQUE IS HARD TO FIND

Okay sports fans, here's the down and dirty on this epic story of a weekend spent in fornication, faithlessness, and other fun stuff.

This is the original, "erotic" short story version of a chapter I've since toned down and re-written several times as part of my first "mainstream" novel.

In addition to KM's questions, I'd appreciate any input on the following:

Do the sex scenes "work". One of the reason I hang around here, other than my prurient inclinations, is a desire to improve my writing of love/sex/erotic scenes.

Are the characters believable, do they change and if so, is the change plausible? This is very important. These two opposites will eventually work their way to a permanent relationship.

Here's a little background on the two characters. The gal is: engaged, Jewish, from New York, and been in anti-war demonstrations. The guy is: emotionally numb, protestant, from a small southern town, and was badly wounded in Viet Nam

Many thanks for any and all input.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[TheEarl]

1) Did the title of the story do it justice? When you think of titles of stories, do you have any specific considerations?

The title of the story should really attract the clientele you want for your masterpiece. I think Whispersecret wrote a bit on this in the "How To" section. When I saw the title, I was thinking of a tacky story where a woman lecturer suddenly discovers her pressing need to deliver oral sex to 50 men at a seminar. Although my mind is warped (and the fact that it was in Erotic couplings made this plot unlikely), several other people will have got this idea from the title. This is where the idiots come in to give "She only had sex with one man, so I gave it a 1" feedback.


2) Third person omniscience and the joys of POV swapping. Moving from one person's "shoulder" to another's is one of the perks of this POV. How is it managed effectively? How is it not? What are some applications in spots like dialogue, sex, backstory, and descriptive narrative?

IMHO, Third person omniscience allows greater access to the backstory as first person only allows the perspective and knowledge of one person (may sound like stating the obvious, but there are several stories on the site, which were obviously written with the wish of omniscience from a 1st person perspective).


3) Names vs. pronouns. The concern regarding repetition is often expressed in both bases. What is the most effective method of using both names and pronouns through the course of the story?

This is really a subjective matter, but I always prefer using lots of pronouns, rather than repeating names. However he/she can get confusing, especially if there is more than one person of each sex. The only way to deal with this is editing. Write the story in one go, go through your first edit, then leave it for a month. Come back when it's less familiar and you'll be able to see it with objective eyes, making it easier to pick up on unclear pronouns.


To Rumpleforeskin's q's.

"Do the sex scenes "work"." In my opinion, yes they do. Lit has become a little less engaging for me as a reader since I became and author, but you certainly kept me interested. Frenzied, realistic and fun.

"Are the characters believable, do they change and if so, is the change plausible?" I did get a little lost in the character's motivations (Pretentious? Moi?). Why is Cindy having sex with Ray if she still loves Danny? There were intimations that Danny wasn't very good and that Cindy was using Ray as a tutor to make herself better for Danny, but I wasn't quite sure. However they were quite entertaining to spend time with, I'd just have preferred a little more knowledge about them; presumably you go into them in more depth in the full novel.


This story kept me away from the immediate click on the back button and resulted in me voting. Very well written. I hope you don't take offence at the few things I have picked up, I'm being a little picky to find things to criticise you with (As you can probably tell ).

The Earl

 

[The_old_man]

Some points to ponder as you finish your critiques and begin thinking about discussion:

1) Did the title of the story do it justice? When you think of titles of stories, do you have any specific considerations?
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Seminar to me( and my wife) is a moderated discussion group, gathered to diseminate and exchange information. Very little 'information' was exchanged in this story.
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2) Third person omniscience and the joys of POV swapping. Moving from one person's "shoulder" to another's is one of the perks of this POV. How is it managed effectively? How is it not? What are some applications in spots like dialogue, sex, backstory, and descriptive narrative?
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can't answer this one. I have more than enough trouble trying to keep my own stories within acceptable limits.
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3) Names vs. pronouns. The concern regarding repetition is often expressed in both bases. What is the most effective method of using both names and pronouns through the course of the story?

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When only two persons are engaged in dialogue I tend to leave out tags unless there is need to describe : tone of voice, or other emotional content. If more than two are involved, tags are necessary and Names are needed to keep things straight.

The story itself:
I found myself wondering what kind of superman Ray was. I know of no one able to perform as endlesly as described in this narative. Even the best of the Porn Stars need rest between scenes.
My wife says that, to her, it came across as brutal sexual assault. I wouldn't go that far, but I did not find the story errotic for the same reason, Ray displayed no sensitity.

 

[Ray Dario]

First of all, I enjoyed reading this story. It was energetic and the action was done very well.

To answer the questions.

Some points to ponder as you finish your critiques and begin thinking about discussion:

1) Did the title of the story do it justice? When you think of titles of stories, do you have any specific considerations?

The title may have been a little misleading, but the category should have steered the reader in the right direction. It wouldn't have been misleading at all if Cindy's motivation was more clearly defined.

2) Third person omniscience and the joys of POV swapping. Moving from one person's "shoulder" to another's is one of the perks of this POV. How is it managed effectively? How is it not? What are some applications in spots like dialogue, sex, backstory, and descriptive narrative?

I didn't see a lot of movement of POV in this story. Either that means that, as I believe, it stayed focused on Cindy through most of the story or it was done well enough to flow well and not distract the reader. How is it managed effectively. The only thing I can say is that it cannot distract the reader and yet the reader must be able to understand where the POV is coming from, even if they don't really think about it.

Descriptive narrative is probably one of the most common reasons for shifting the POV over to another character, another would be to get inside the other character's head for a few minutes. It helps the writer show motivation and that can help explain why a character does what they do. In this story, I never got a clear idea that Ray was motivated by anything other than Lust. This made him a very thin character.

3) Names vs. pronouns. The concern regarding repetition is often expressed in both bases. What is the most effective method of using both names and pronouns through the course of the story?

I believe that this should be motivated by one thing. Clarity. If the reader doesn't know who did something then it detracts from the story. However this has to be balanced by readability. It's a tightrope with danger on both sides. Too many Names and the story's readability suffers, too many pronouns and clarity suffers.

Do the sex scenes "work". One of the reason I hang around here, other than my prurient inclinations, is a desire to improve my writing of love/sex/erotic scenes.

Most of the time they did. Maybe it was just me, but I got kinda tired of the sex by the end of the story. I coulda done without her boffing Danny at the end.

Are the characters believable, do they change and if so, is the change plausible? This is very important. These two opposites will eventually work their way to a permanent relationship.

Cindy was believable. I didn't really detect much change in her. To me she ended pretty much the same as she began.

Ray didn't develop. I never got a real sense that he was anything more than a horny man looking to score. If he is to be more than just a prop then he needs much more fleshing out.

Danny just didn't really enter the story.

Overall I think this is a good story. You developed the main character well and made her come alive. I actually felt just a little sorry for her at the end.

Good work and keep writing.

Ray

 

[SexyChele]

Wow, am I the only female offering an opinion so far? Well, here goes:

At an academic level, I felt the story was well written and seemed to flow well. I really have to say that this is one of the better written stories I've read here at Lit.

KillerMuffin's Questions:

1) Did the title of the story do it justice? When you think of titles of stories, do you have any specific considerations?

The title left me a little confused, even at the end of the story. I understand the idea that Cindy was supposed to learn something over this weekend, hence "Seminar", but what had she learned? In that respect, the title was confusing. However, I have such difficulty with titles for my own stories, that I often overlook this aspect. Instead, I normally look at certain categories, and then review the short introductions that people include for insight as to whether I would be interested in a story.

I do admire those writers who seem to be able to come up with engaging titles, but I still use my own method of determining which stories I read.

2) Third person omniscience and the joys of POV swapping. Moving from one person's "shoulder" to another's is one of the perks of this POV. How is it managed effectively? How is it not? What are some applications in spots like dialogue, sex, backstory, and descriptive narrative?

As with Ray, I hadn't noticed a switch of POV in the story. I did go back and look for it specifically, and could see where, early in the story, we got sort of a glimpse from Ray's perspective. However, I think the story was mainly told from Cindy's POV. However, when the story shifted slightly to Ray and then back to Cindy, the flow seemed to "meld" together. But, overall, I read this as Cindy's story.

3) Names vs. pronouns. The concern regarding repetition is often expressed in both bases. What is the most effective method of using both names and pronouns through the course of the story?

I like the way names and pronouns seemed to be used in a healthy mix. It gets boring reading nothing "he" and "she", and reading a repetition of names gets dreary. By using a mix of names and pronouns, the writer keeps the reader engaged. Well, that's my thought, anyway.



Now, for RF's Questions:

Do the sex scenes "work".

I had to think about this one. To be honest, from my own female perspective, no, they did not. I do believe what you were trying to get to was Cindy feeling the soreness and pain from repeated couplings, and in that respect you suceeded. However, having "been there, done that", it ain't all it's cracked up to be. By the end of the story I was literally cringing. Perhaps a little "too" real? (And you should know that I do like a little pain on occasion. )

Most specifically, there were two scenes that kind of got to me in a negative way. In one scene you describe Cindy giving Ray a blowjob, and make mention of her getting pubes in her lips and teeth. UGH! Sorry, but if I had not committed myself to discussion, I would have backed out of the story at this point. The second point was when Cindy used hand lotion to lube up herself and Danny. Many women are allergic to most types of hand lotion. If Cindy was one of these gals, and she already had a sore vagina, this would have left her in agony, writhing on the floor. Believe me, I'm one of those. And I found out much like Cindy did - except I could not continue, and I couldn't get home fast enough to douche. That scene kept replaying in my head while reading, so you understand where I'm coming from.


Are the characters believable, do they change and if so, is the change plausible?

I believe Cindy's character is believable. She comes across as being sexually naive, and I think that is what you were going for. However, I don't think she came away from her weekend with Ray with any more knowledge than when she started. Maybe reading about Cindy being introduced to a new position or two would have changed that? I could understand Cindy's desire to be with Ray while professing love for Danny. I've been in that circumstance, and it doesn't always make sense, but it happens. From what I hear, some guys do the same thing.

Ray confused me. I couldn't figure him out, and if I were an average reader, not having read your intro here, I would have walked away from the story feeling very antagonistic towards him. I would be on Danny's side, hoping Cindy would have the good sense not to be further involved with Ray. Fact is, I could see very little difference between the two men sexually. Well, except that Ray never went flaccid. It seemed that Cindy was used, and that she was desiring to simply be used again by Ray, and I could not figure out that attraction. Now, maybe in a larger body of work, that confusion is cleared up.


Wow, it seems like I was really harsh with you, and didn't mean to be. I did think the story well-written, however, having experienced much of what Cindy went through, the reality is not as good as the fantasy. With this in mind, my own personal life experiences more than likely colored my opinion. Other females might very well disagree with me. It will be interesting to find out!

But, hey, it seems to be workin' for the guys!

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi Rumple,

I think there's lots of good writing, some good phrases, like 'cram her entire body into her pussy.'

It's sort of a 'nice girl meets human sex machine, receives 36 hour fucking lesson.' The third person narration is not omniscient, but the narrator has access to Cindy's thoughts and her future. It's a common form, 'quasi omniscient with access to one main character's mind.'

There are a couple marathon fuck sessions (with Mara) in Miller's Sexus you might have a look at.

It's a bit lush for my taste and could be pruned enormously. There are enough over written or quasi cliche' passages to distract the reader. Sometimes 'less is more'. I've reproduced some below; they generally go overboard in the adjective dept.

I think you want it judged as 'writing' not as pure porn. Cindy, imo, 'works' as a character to some extent, though her motives are in some ways unclear, e.g., for the painful fuck at the end (guilt?). Her 'adventure' as Sexy Chele says, is a bit over the top, in terms of realistic possibility. The male 'lasting power' and 'rivers of cum' is pretty incredible.

With a ruthless editor, I think you have fine possibilities.


Jack.

Six excerpts by RumpleF:

now firmly planted deep inside her eager pussy.

his thick torso pressing down on her as his powerful thighs wedged between her out-stretched legs.

left his long rod buried up to hilt inside Cindy's stretched vagina.

a throbbing dick pumping wad after wad of cum deep inside her pussy.

hammered his cock in and out of her tormented cunt.

drove the full length of his swollen dick into her open and waiting mouth.

 

[cherrylips_au]

Hi RF
I thought the story was well written. I have a few questions that came up as I was reading it which may be explained in the longer version of the story you have written.
One was you implied that he was a strange man in one of the earlier paragraphs, then went onto explain they had meet in the pervious Summer when he had been wounded, they had been on dates and she had even tasted and felt his cock before this weekend. From the beginning of the story I had the feeling they didn't know each other intimately at all and that was reflected at other times, so I was a little confused how well she knew him.
The other main question that came up I wasn't sure of the time frame from when they first meet but as he had been a wounded vet he had an amazing stamina of a very fit man yet he returned to the hospital, was he still a paitent there?

Onto the questions,
The title of the story I felt didn't do it justice as Cindy didn't seemed to learn anything new but felt at the end that she had passed the seminer. Cindy also at times through out the story stated she felt comfortable with the classic missonary postion. The only new thing she seemed to experience was a 36 hour sex session with someone she hadn't been involved with.

It was Cindy's story, Ray's point of veiw briefly came into it and it worked well when it did. As you have said this is part of a longer story then I think Ray's veiw point could become more important to that part of the story, how he felt about the weekend, was it important to him? was he having similar feelings to Cindy?

I thought the names vs pronouns was a good balance.

Do the sex scenes work yes and no. It was believable to a point if they are both young fit people but both would be sore after the marathon session not just Cindy. I think Cindy would turn Danny down when he wanted to have sex with her due to the pain or possible give him the oral sex similar to what she did to Ray using her fingers to stimulate his balls and ass. This way it would show she had learnt something new from the weekend.

I think you showed Cindy to be a believable character but she didn't seem to change over the story maybe if she had tried something new for her and Danny at the end, rather then just put up with painful sex.
Ray we didn't really get to know alot about him but I think he had potential.
Danny seemed to be just there, we didn't really get to know anything about him in this part of the story.

It was well written, as a women I was cringing at the end thinking how much pain she would be in just to please her fiance.

You did leave me wanting to know how the story goes from here.
Good luck with it and thanks for sharing.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

MANY THANKS

The critiques all of you gave have been, IMHO, first-rate and very helpful. I apologize to anyone I (bored, grossed out, confused, etc) and appreciate your sticking with the story.

For those who might be interested, here's some more info about the story. This excerpt is a re-write of chapter ten from my novel. Cindy and Ray meet in chapter one so by this time, they know each other well. Ray was blinded by a booby trap explosion in Viet Nam but has regained some vision. Cindy's a student nurse and met him on her summer job at the VA.


To SexyChele and Cherrylips: Thanks for your female viewpoint. Since the primary POV is Cindy's, your input is especially useful.

Cherrylips, when Cindy wonders about "...this strange man..." I meant it to be in the sense of "odd" not "unknown". Thanks for bringing that possible confusion to my attention. If you double check that final section, you'll notice Cindy actually tried your suggestion of a BJ, but unfortunately for her, Danny wanted that and "more".

Sorry about the "pubs" bit SexyChele, but I was trying to show how she was totally into the moment. I'll give that part a second look. After reading your thoughts on the scene with Danny, (which I almost didn't include) I may spend a little more time on her thought process prior to going to visit him.

abashed-dreamer, you also noted that same problem. Thanks for the input and your suggestion for late night reading.

Brother Ray, let me apologize to you and everyone else for that title. I confess, my name is Rumple Foreskin, and I've got a problem with alliterations. As I've mentioned before, I'm going to work on doing a better job of presenting Cindy's motivation, both for her being with Ray and later with Danny.

The Old Man, I'm sorry you and your lady didn't like the story. As for stamina, as Cherrylips mentioned, they were both young, fit people and, as I mentioned, they were totally released from the normal constraints (time, place, etc.) of love making. However, I will go back and insert something about Ray being a patient in a VA hospital and, except of some heavy breathing with Cindy, sexuall inactive.

The Earl asked the key question in my novel, "Why is Cindy having sex with Ray if she still loves Danny?" She's a nice Jewish girl from Queens who's been dating the same guy for four years and has her future neatly mapped out. Then this beat-up redneck 'Nam vet comes into her life and her well-planned trip down life's highway gets a major detour.

Once again, many thanks for all the fine input. If you have any other questions or suggestions, don't hesitate to send me an e-mail or PM.

Rumple Foreskin