4th of July Question: What If America Had Lost The War?

[Marxist]

I love alternate history.

So what would have been our fate? A second attempt at revolution? Tighter and stricter government from the Brits? A quicker end to slavery? Bigger teeth?

Long term, would there have been a first or second World War? Would the British Empire have faded or caught a second wind as manufacturing and technology from the states buoyed it?

The possibilities are endless...

 

[Marxist]

I forgot to add that PPman would most certainly be bored to tears. Or maybe the first Socialist mayor of Boston.

 

[WriterDom]

I can see it now. Sixty-thousand people doing the wave at a cricket match.

 

[callableborg]

endless possibilities

I should say so, esp since the monarch of the mother country had serious reality orientation issues.

Remember that the revolution happened even before the building of the royal carriage so the enemy could not even mount a decent parade against the rebels.

Interesting idea but easier to accept the revolution as an inevetable step foreward in human history.

 

[Marxist]

And it could have gone the other way as well; it's quite possible that a revolution begun later, say 1861, could have ended up in a British Revolution, taking down the monarchy and all the crap that went along with it. Maybe instead of the Union Jack, PPman might get his wish for stars and stripes and a representative democracy.

 

[callableborg]

Mmmm.

Yea, though there is a big gap between 1776 and 1861. Like who needs a revolution in the middle of a civil war?

The dreams of ppman may be a factor in world history but we are otherwise doomed to accept history as it happens in lieu of other directives.

I.E. ppman! Wake Up. This is your moment.

 

[phrodeau]

If America had lost the Revolutionary War, we'd all be Canadian.

I'm glad not to be, because that red maple leaf is so tacky.

 

[Marxist]

If America had lost the Revolutionary War, we'd all be Canadian.

I'm glad not to be, because that red maple leaf is so tacky.

Re: Canadian Flag. It looks like a corporate logo.

I'm still thinking that the South would have needed a war considering that it was isolated culturally, socially, and economically from the rest of the country.

Who knows when that war would have occurred.

 

[callableborg]

1776

Point is that in 1776 Canada was too immuture and depenedent on Britian to be a part of the revolution.

 

[Dragon Dreamer]

Re: 1776

Point is that in 1776 Canada was too immuture and depenedent on Britian to be a part of the revolution.

Ummm, historically, that is not true. Upper Canada (what Ontario was then.) had no interest in leaving the empire. In fact, a large number of people loyal to England fled the 13 colonies and entered Upper and Lower Canada to avoid persecution.

Once again stating, I have nothing but respect for our neighbours to the south, just fixing a historical mis-statement.

Happy 4th of July!

 

[christo]

Another question to ponder is, what would have happened if George Washington had really, really liked being President? What if he'd decided that two terms weren't enough? That the American masses weren't quite ready yet for a democracy?

It could have happened. More remarkable than the colonists defeat of the British (too far away, too preoccupied with European problems) is the fact that our Founding Fathers drew up this plan for a liberal democracy AND STUCK TO IT. Had Washington decided to be King of America there would have been enormous popular support for it. There also would have been a lot of opposition. Maybe we would have had two Civil Wars.

But we didn't. Washington served his two terms and went off to Mount Vernon. Jefferson beat Adams, two men who hated each others guts, and yet Adams didn't have Jefferson assassinated. TJ served his terms, and then ADAMS became Prez. Remarkable.

Look at how other revolutions ended up. French Revolution, mass slaughter of royals, Napoleon as Emperor. Russian Revolution, mass slaughter of royals, Stalin as Boss, mass slaughter of everyone. Chinese Revolution, mass slaughter of everyone, Mao Zedong as Premier, mass slaughter of everyone.

With all due respect for Tom Brokaw, the Greatest Generation was the one that founded this nation. Props to our grandparents, who I guess had nothing better to do during their lives than fight a titanic war to defeat Nazism and Communism and make the world safe for democracy, but without Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Monroe, Hamilton, Madison, etc etc, there wouldn't BE any democracy to defend.

We're lucky. The right people (the Founding Father) were in the right place (far away from European superpowers) and the right time (probably lunch) to establish this great nation. Now it's up to us to keep it going strong and not fuck it up.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I suspect that if the US and Canada didn't end up as one country, then at least, we'd have ended up as part of the British crown like Canada and Australia, but like them we'd have eventually gained our own independence. There obviously isn't much of a "British Empire" anymore (hence PPman's phallic rage at the US for supplanting Britain as world-dominator) or any 18th-century style mercantile empires at all.

At worst, I think that if we'd have lost the war we'd be saying lame things like "God save the Queen", but overall not too much would be different.

 

[markb325]

Here is something to think about. If the British had won the war, none of us would be here today. Altering history also alters the present and future.

 

[patient1]

Interesting.

I figure Napolean would have advised & equiped North America in 1810-1815, just to weaken the British. It wouldn't have been like the Revolution, just Lafayette until Yorktown. It would have been enough officers & equipment to wage a war. Maybe all of North America would have become an independent French alli.

Maybe Britain would have chose to concede the European continent & keep it's colonies instead

Mark is right.
Even if we can assume independence by 1815, I wonder how the dates would affect immigration patterns. Wars have something to do with it people leaving a country, and governments have something to do with who gets in. Many Americans would never exist. It's hard to say what wouldn't be invented or accomplished.

 

[Marxist]

I suspect that if the US and Canada didn't end up as one country, then at least, we'd have ended up as part of the British crown like Canada and Australia, but like them we'd have eventually gained our own independence. There obviously isn't much of a "British Empire" anymore (hence PPman's phallic rage at the US for supplanting Britain as world-dominator) or any 18th-century style mercantile empires at all.

At worst, I think that if we'd have lost the war we'd be saying lame things like "God save the Queen", but overall not too much would be different.

But you have to remember what America was in the late 18th century: A nation divided by distance and culture, and strongly black slave. Canada and Australia were virtually unpopulated frontiers (and still are in a way) compared to what was brewing in America.

I'm thinking that if the Brits put down a revolution, something would have been done to try and prevent a future one.

As witnessed by their attempt to retake America in the War of 1812, the British really didn't want to give this country up.

 

[patient1]

But we didn't. Washington served his two terms and went off to Mount Vernon. Jefferson beat Adams, two men who hated each others guts, and yet Adams didn't have Jefferson assassinated. TJ served his terms, and then ADAMS became Prez. Remarkable

With all due respect for Tom Brokaw, the Greatest Generation was the one that founded this nation. Props to our grandparents, who I guess had nothing better to do during their lives than fight a titanic war to defeat Nazism and Communism and make the world safe for democracy, but without Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Monroe, Hamilton, Madison, etc etc, there wouldn't BE any democracy to defend.

Great post, Christo! I've always thought the same about which generation was the greatest.

I'm confused The way I remember learning it, the line of succession was Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, John Quincy Adams.

 

[Wrong Element]

There would have been independence eventually, but the contours of the country would have looked a good deal different--for starters, it's unlikely Napoleon would have sold Louisiana to the British.

As far as Canada and the U.S. being one country instead, I suspect that cultural differences may already have been too great by the late 1700s for that to happen. If the revolution had failed in 1775-1781, the colonies would have at least gone through it--a unifying experience that "Canada" did not share.

Of course, P_P_Man's latest threads predict that Britain will be dominating us in short order, so maybe we'll have the chance for that second revolution after all

 

[Dragon Dreamer]

As witnessed by their attempt to retake America in the War of 1812, the British really didn't want to give this country up.

I'm not sure where this misconception comes from... but it was the Americans who were the aggressors in the War of 1812 as a product of Manifest Destiny. The Americans started the war with an invasion of Upper Canada. The war was basically stalemated after the U.S. made some initial gains, progressing as far as Fort York (now Toronto), then being pushed back by loyalist forces past the original U.S. lines. Loyalist forces then went on to burn Albany, as well as other areas on the east coast, before retreating back into Upper Canada. The borders remained the same after the was as they had before. Some of the most hard fought battles of the war were fought in Niagara, the area I grew up in, and I've visited the sites many times.

 

[markb325]

Great post, Christo! I've always thought the same about which generation was the greatest.

I'm confused The way I remember learning it, the line of succession was Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, John Quincy Adams.

If I remember my history correctly your correct patient 1. Of course that is if.

 

[p_p_man]

Yes indeedy...what if?

Many people seem to forget that Britain didn't really want a military based Empire in the first place. It sort of grew out of our desire to expand our trade base. India being the main Jewel in Britain's crown.

It's doubtful whether the American slave trade would have been abolished. Britain is very proud of being the first country to abolish the slave trade but in a world where America was still a colony there would be no reason for us to take the moral high ground when the explosion in profits that cotton and sugar suddenly produced took off in the 1790s. No self respecting businessman would let that go without a fight.

So Britain would have increased the trade in slaves in order to staff the southern plantations whilst at the same time placing large garrisons of troops and large naval fleets at strategic places in and around America to protect the cotton/sugar industry. And to stamp quickly on any new uprising from the upstarts.

America would be the same as any other colony Britain had at the time. Run by Whitehall with a large military force on the ground to protect our interests. In fact as India was ruled from one room in England the American colony being of so much lesser importance would probably have been run from a wine cellar somewhere.

No doubt we would have encouraged immigration to populate the land and to dilute the rebellious rabble who had tried to win Independence and things would have progressed at their own pace.

We missed the cotton boom by about 30 years. Otherwise we may have put up a better fight than we did!

But all things would have turned out well in the end. Those colonists who proved their loyalty to the crown would have been rewarded with land, wealth and influence until a new aristocracy would have developed with increasingly influential political power. Eventually the need to have a strong military presence would diminish as the people, the Anglo-Americans, took the upper hand over people from other lands.

And by the mid 1960s when Britain had become tired of being Lord and Master over all, we would have given America back to the colonists to run as they wish.

They would immediately put in claims for reparations and Britain would join the European Union, claiming immunity from all compensation due on the ground that Great Britain no longer existed.

My forefathers of course, being uncompromisingly loyal to King George "God Bless Him!" would have been made Governors General to run in perpetuity and I in turn would have become President for Life after America had been granted independence.

ppman

 

[Susano]

Sounds like a question for Harry Turtledove. I couldn't even begin to guess.

 

[paganangel]

I love alternate history.

So what would have been our fate? A second attempt at revolution? Tighter and stricter government from the Brits? A quicker end to slavery? Bigger teeth?

Long term, would there have been a first or second World War? Would the British Empire have faded or caught a second wind as manufacturing and technology from the states buoyed it?

The possibilities are endless...

well, for one ting, e'd all be speaking english today.

 

[Dragon Dreamer]

Re: Re: 4th of July Question: What If America Had Lost The War?

well, for one ting, e'd all be speaking english today.

Think of all the u's you would have to add to words...

harbour
colour
favour
neighbour
savour


hehe.

 

[Darowyn]

You don't have to add the "U"s. They are all there already!
More seriously, I'm wondering if the rising of the south would have the next war of independence. Assuming that Britain had abolished slavery in the north, would Britain have won what is now known as the civil war?
If the South had won that war, maybe the Canadian border would have been the Mason/Dixon line.
Happy Independence Day anyway- I hope it's carefree and fun for all USA based Litt people

 

[KillerMuffin]

Yorktown: If the British Had Won. . .
by Gerald Clarke
Published in Time Magazine, 2 Nov 1981
_____________________________________________________________

Each year at this time, Sir Geoffrey Gabb, George III professor of history at Cornwallis University, lectures his freshman students on a little-known but decisive episode in American history. Last week marked the 200th anniversy of that event.

You have all heard of the battles of Hasting and Agincourt, and I doubt that there is anyone in the room who doesn't know all about the defeat of the Spanish Armada in 1588. But I suspect that only a handful of you ahve even heard the name of what I believe is the most important--and glorious--victory in our nation's history: the Battle of Yorktown in October 1871.

You can learn the details of the fighting in Chapter 7 of my book The Triumph of British America: 1776-1843, which sells for a modest £5.6 in the Co-op. It is enought to say here that British forces, led by Charles East Cornwallis, for whom this university is named, soundly defeated the much larger forces of the Fench and rebellious Americans and took prisoner their commander, George Washington. If you're interested in such pecularities, you can see his brandy-stained teeth, which were fashioned out of hippopotomus tusk, in Prince Charles Hall, right next to Pocahontas' feathered headdress.

Witht he capture of Washington--he was, poor chap, taken to London and hanged as a traitor--the rebellion collapsed, and no one else had the stature or the stomach to start it up again. That ancient rouge Benjamin Franklin, who persuaded King Louis XVI to bankrupt his treasure in the rebel cause, was content to remain in Paris, for instance, chasing young ladies and flying kites in thunderstorms. Thomas Jefferson, the greates propagandist of the age, also sought refuge in Europe, where hd lived with his beautiful black mistress and continued his mischief-making for another 43 years. A fascinating, tragic figure, Jerfferson became an inspiration to generations of novelists, poets, and composers. Sir Walter Scott used him as the hero of Monticello, and after one apparently jolly dinner at Jefferson's Italian villa, Shelley was moved to write:

Hail to thee, blithe spirit!
Man thou never wert,
That from Heaven, or near
&nbsp&nbspit, pourest thy full heart
In profuse strains of
&nbsp&nbspinvigorated art.

And, in my opinion, the loveliest sounds in all opera occure in the final act of Verdi's Tommaso Jefferson, when the desolate exile sings an aria of a lost ladylove in America: "O, Susannah, non piangere per me!" (O, Susannah, don't you cry for me!). But I am an old man and I digress. If you want to know more about these colorful characters, you can purchase my book Romantic Rebels, which is a mere £4.9 at the Co-op.

Once the leaders of the rebellion were executed or dispersed, the British government admitted its previous errors--tacitly, of course--and sought to redress old wrongs. King George III, who had complained that he would go mad if his American colonies were lost, regained his spirits and proved a forgiving monarch. No more than a third of the colonists had supported the insurrection, in any event, and six years of bloodshed and privation were quickly forgotten in the era of good feeling that followed the war. The colonies were placed under a unified government for the first time, and a new capital was established across the East River from Manhattan, in the fertile fields of Brooklyn. Some had wanted to put the new city further south, along the banks of the slothful Potomac, but wiser heads decided that reason would never prosper in those hot and foggy bottoms. Safely settled in Brooklyn, the new government slowly evolved into the parliamentary democracy we know today, with full independence coming only in 1843.

Before that occurred, however, the British did one magnificent deed: in 1833 they abolished slavery, here as elsewhere in their empire. Hotheads in the South, which depended on that despicable institution, threatened a second insurrection, but the combined weight of the northern provinces and the British army and fleet was enough to chill even their overheated indignation. Another cooling factor may have been the British offer of financial restitution for freed slaves: a total of £20 million, a considerable sum, I might remind you, in those days. The peaceful solution of a problem that could have led to civil war might well be called Britain’s greatest gift to its Atlantic colonies. Blacks were brought slowly into white society and, as a result, race is not a major issue in the America of 1981 as it is in so many other countries.

Not everything the victorious British did was so wise, and if they had not been so shortsighted in some ways, America might now be a much larger country than it is. Not wanting to offend the Indians–or interfere with the lucrative fur trade–London continued to prohibit settlements west of the Appalachian Mountains. The Appalachian Barrier Act was often ignored, but it nonetheless slowed development of the Far West–that vast area between the Appalachians and the Mississippi River. Only in this century have Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin, for example, had populations large enough to qualify for provincehood; until 1908 they had territorial governors appointed directly by the Prime Minister’s office on Flatbush Avenue.

Another unfortunate consequence of the Barrier Act was to encourage the French to try to push their frontier east of the Mississippi. The Emperor Napoleon had been tempted to sell all of France’s New World holdings–for as little as £3 million–but Jefferson, that consummate troublemaker, convinced him not only to keep his 828,000 square miles but to populate them with the landless peasants of France and Southern Europe. If it had not been for Jefferson–non piangere per me, indeed!–America, our British America, might now extend from the Atlantic to the Rocky Mountains. It would then be nearly as large as Mexico, which inherited from Spain not only the southwest, but almost everything west of the continental divide.

Only the Earl of Liverpool, who was then the British Prime Minister, can be blamed, however, for the failure to purchase Florida and the lands along the Gulf Coast, which the Spanish, hard up as always, put on the market for £1 million in 1819. If Lord Liverpool had not been so foolishly parsimonious, that sun-favored peninsula would now be a law-abiding and God-fearing American province instead of the petty dictatorship it is, whose only exports are drugs, disease, and depravity.

Ah well, back to the Mississippi, where the French and the British waged constant warfare along their river boundary. In fact, the final battle of the Mississippi War took place as late as 1865. Only then, at the Battle of Prairie du Chien, did the combined British and American armies, under the leadership of General Sir Ulysses S. Grant, persuade the French and their Indian allies to stay on their side of the water. After that, Paris seemed to lose interest in its third of the North American continent, and with French blessing, the newly independent nation of Louisiana unfurled its flag on July 14, Bastille Day, 1870. Now those unhappy days of strife are long forgotten, and America and Louisiana are friendly neighbors. Our own population is 75 million, according to the 1980 census, just 7 million less than that of Louisiana and its Indian protectorate, Amerinda. Our gross national product, however, is considerably larger £439 billion, compared with their combined total of £369 billion.

Both of us are loyal to the countries that nurtured us and protected us from rebellion and other follies. Indeed, America, like New Zealand, is often accused of being more British than Britain is, while Louisiana, like Quebec, hearkens back to an earlier and in many ways more pleasant France. No Englishman could show more excitement over a cricket match than the average sports-loving American, and last weeks’ beginning of the World Cricket Series was a national ritual for most Americans. Louisiana, in turn, has retained that raffish, somewhat off-center charm we associate with all things French: good food, good conversation, and a fine contempt for conventional morals. It has also retained some unfortunate reminds of its frontier heritage. Unlike America, where handguns are outlawed, Louisiana allowed every ten-year-old a six-shooter. No one is safe on is streets.

Both of us have shown our loyalty to Europe in material ways, too, and when Germany threatened Britain and France with War in August 1914, Brooklyn and St. Louis jointly rushed to the support of their mother countries. That show of strength was sufficient to persuade Kaiser Wilhelm II to back down, and Europe, as you know, has remained at peace ever since.

The same cannot be said of Asia, of course, where the intermittent conflict between two great autocratic empires–Japan and Russia–endangers the entire world. After it broke its self-imposed isolation at the end of the 19th century, Japan proved all but invincible. With no country in the area strong enough to stand in its way, Tokyo gained its present domination over the Pacific, invading the Hawaiian Islands in 1910 and forcing a weak Mexico to cede the Catalina Islands, off the coast of southern California, in 1913. Santa Catalina is now the Japanese Hong Kong, a center of industrial activity whose smoggy air often fouls the otherwise clear skies of sleepy Los Angeles. Defeated by Japan at the Battle of Tsushima Strait in 1905, Russia was forced to give up Russian America, sometimes known as Alaska. Now, under its young and aggressive new Tsar, Nicholas VII, it seems determined to regain that conquered territory and plunge the world into what could well be the first world war.

What does all that have to do with the Battle of Yorktown? you ask. Who can say for sire? All I can tell you for certain is that if Washington had won instead of Cornwallis, the past 200 years would have been very different. Which brings me to next week’s assignment. In 1,200 words, or four typewritten pages, write a history of an independent United States. Use your imagination, and be guided by only one rule: nothing is inevitable.