KillerMuffin
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cherrylips_au said:
Alright ladies and gentlemen! Let's go ahead and do a little discussing.
4-23-02 Cherrylipsau
- Thread starter KillerMuffin
- Start date
Alright ladies and gentlemen! Let's go ahead and do a little discussing.
KillerMuffin
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Loaded Questions
In addition to the general critique you're going to give, let's go over a few questions.
1) Why is second person bad? I mean really, everyone says no and Muffie blathers about alienation (she watches too much TV), but why is second person a no-way jose way to write?
2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?
3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences.
In addition to the general critique you're going to give, let's go over a few questions.
1) Why is second person bad? I mean really, everyone says no and Muffie blathers about alienation (she watches too much TV), but why is second person a no-way jose way to write?
2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?
3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences.
Good story, sensual, hot. The sex is very well done, very arousing. I'm not much into tying up girls (actually, the times I've asked girlfriends for a little playful B&D they've freaked out. Gotta stop picking up girls in church). So that part, good stuff. I especially liked the part where he cuts her lingerie with scissors. She's tied up, so he can't take it off her. He's not an animal in the throes of passion, so he doesn't tear it off her. He's clinical, precise--he snips the straps away with scissors. He's in control. Nice touch.
Second person...I always think that if a story is told in second person, it should be that way because other points of view aren't appropriate. It's too Letters to Penthouse-y. It's not terrible in this story, but there are some breaks in continuity that wouldn't have been a problem in, say, first person. There are parts where the narrator describes what her lover is thinking, others when she doesn't, and it gets a bit distracting.
In first person, it would have been easier to describe what the narrator is feeling, and what's happening to her is more interesting that what her lover is up to.
It also would have been easier to introduce dialogue into the story, which would have done a lot to draw the reader deeper into the story. Instead of writing, "You softly say to me that I can have as much of your cock as I want when you had finished having your way with me," put it in quotes and have it be a bit of dialogue. It breaks up the paragraphs, gives the reader the chance to hear the character's "voice".
Tho that might be a problem, since the woman somehow confuses her lover's voice with her husband's. Either her hearing's not too good, or her lover was disgusing his voice, or the two men sound alike. That little problem should have been explained somehow, it's a tiny break that can easily be solved.
The ending is a bit rushed. A one-paragraph wrap-up in a story with a situation that begs for more, more, more! She has a very understanding husband, and I'd like to know more about their little situation.
All in all, good story. I'd like to see it changed to first person, like to see the dialogue broken out, like to see the ending extended. But, hey, I'd like to see Kirsten Dunst at my front door wearing nothing but a smile. Hmm...there's a story idea...
Second person...I always think that if a story is told in second person, it should be that way because other points of view aren't appropriate. It's too Letters to Penthouse-y. It's not terrible in this story, but there are some breaks in continuity that wouldn't have been a problem in, say, first person. There are parts where the narrator describes what her lover is thinking, others when she doesn't, and it gets a bit distracting.
In first person, it would have been easier to describe what the narrator is feeling, and what's happening to her is more interesting that what her lover is up to.
It also would have been easier to introduce dialogue into the story, which would have done a lot to draw the reader deeper into the story. Instead of writing, "You softly say to me that I can have as much of your cock as I want when you had finished having your way with me," put it in quotes and have it be a bit of dialogue. It breaks up the paragraphs, gives the reader the chance to hear the character's "voice".
Tho that might be a problem, since the woman somehow confuses her lover's voice with her husband's. Either her hearing's not too good, or her lover was disgusing his voice, or the two men sound alike. That little problem should have been explained somehow, it's a tiny break that can easily be solved.
The ending is a bit rushed. A one-paragraph wrap-up in a story with a situation that begs for more, more, more! She has a very understanding husband, and I'd like to know more about their little situation.
All in all, good story. I'd like to see it changed to first person, like to see the dialogue broken out, like to see the ending extended. But, hey, I'd like to see Kirsten Dunst at my front door wearing nothing but a smile. Hmm...there's a story idea...
Ray Dario
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First to my general critique then I'll move on to KM's questions.
This story presented some good imagery. Your descriptions were interesting and you kept the pace moving in the story.
The main problems I had with the story were mechanical. Poor sentence structure, poor paragraph organization, and improper word usage were three of the biggest. The good news is that these are things that can be taught and learned. The bad news is that you need to spend a good deal of time learning them and it isn’t the most fascinating subject on earth, at least not to me.
A discussion of how effective the story was is limited by these mechanical problems. For instance because of the poor sentence structure I was never able to really get into the story. So I’m going to go on to KM’s questions now. But don’t despair. You have a good imagination and can easily improve your writing by learning the rules of sentence structure.
Hmm, why is second person bad? It’s not, I don’t believe, any more than a chainsaw is bad. But like a chainsaw, it’s not easy to use and you can really muck up a good story with it. I say this because I have seen one instance where I liked the second person perspective (one of your stories KM). Why is it bad here? That is a much easier question to answer. This story pushes emotions and gender onto the reader, emotions and gender that may not fit. How could a woman reading this story relate to the you who slides his cock into the narrator? How about a man who really has a taboo against non-monogamous sex? Wouldn’t the ending alienate him? Forcing the reader into a role other than observer is not really a good idea and it is almost impossible to write second person without doing just that.
Present tense is harder to read. I don’t know why, but it is, at least for me. When I start to read a story written in present tense I usually just click out. This time I didn’t have that option. But I can’t say much about how the tense affected the story because of the mechanical problems that were so hard to get over.
I’m not sure which grammatical error KM is pushing at here. The two biggies I found were incomplete sentences
“The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs.”
And run on sentences
“You move to the other side kissing down my body again until you reach my ankle then slowly binding the satin tie around it taking my leg to the final bedpost so I’m now spread eagled on the bed, blindfolded and at your mercy.”
The second sentence also is a great example of a lack of punctuation. It just fairly screams out for better punctuation.
How do I recognize it when I’m writing? I read it and listen to how it sounds to me. I can usually tell when a sentence isn’t structured properly just by doing that. If I have doubts I go back and analyze the sentence to see what is wrong or I just rewrite it so that it sounds better.
This story presented some good imagery. Your descriptions were interesting and you kept the pace moving in the story.
The main problems I had with the story were mechanical. Poor sentence structure, poor paragraph organization, and improper word usage were three of the biggest. The good news is that these are things that can be taught and learned. The bad news is that you need to spend a good deal of time learning them and it isn’t the most fascinating subject on earth, at least not to me.
A discussion of how effective the story was is limited by these mechanical problems. For instance because of the poor sentence structure I was never able to really get into the story. So I’m going to go on to KM’s questions now. But don’t despair. You have a good imagination and can easily improve your writing by learning the rules of sentence structure.
KillerMuffin said:
Hmm, why is second person bad? It’s not, I don’t believe, any more than a chainsaw is bad. But like a chainsaw, it’s not easy to use and you can really muck up a good story with it. I say this because I have seen one instance where I liked the second person perspective (one of your stories KM). Why is it bad here? That is a much easier question to answer. This story pushes emotions and gender onto the reader, emotions and gender that may not fit. How could a woman reading this story relate to the you who slides his cock into the narrator? How about a man who really has a taboo against non-monogamous sex? Wouldn’t the ending alienate him? Forcing the reader into a role other than observer is not really a good idea and it is almost impossible to write second person without doing just that.
Present tense is harder to read. I don’t know why, but it is, at least for me. When I start to read a story written in present tense I usually just click out. This time I didn’t have that option. But I can’t say much about how the tense affected the story because of the mechanical problems that were so hard to get over.
I’m not sure which grammatical error KM is pushing at here. The two biggies I found were incomplete sentences
“The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs.”
And run on sentences
“You move to the other side kissing down my body again until you reach my ankle then slowly binding the satin tie around it taking my leg to the final bedpost so I’m now spread eagled on the bed, blindfolded and at your mercy.”
The second sentence also is a great example of a lack of punctuation. It just fairly screams out for better punctuation.
How do I recognize it when I’m writing? I read it and listen to how it sounds to me. I can usually tell when a sentence isn’t structured properly just by doing that. If I have doubts I go back and analyze the sentence to see what is wrong or I just rewrite it so that it sounds better.
jon.hayworth
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I think that present tense when properly handled can be fantastic in conveying a sense of urgency. Note the keyword is properly - it is the tool of masters and only when it is appropriate will they use the present tense.
The only time my tutors thought it was apprpriate was in a "pitch", and then we often made the mistake of slipping out of the tense. - Personally I think it is a tense to avoid like the plague - there are far too many pitfalls. These were the grammatical errors KM spoke about, the narrator used the word "then" in the first para, consequently slipping into the past tense. Also she slipped in the same way in the second para - As I said, it is so easy to do.
Both first person and second person accounts pose a problem of repetition, how many ways can one say, I did or you did. They are also restrictive in that it is difficult if not impossible to communicate the feelings and emotions of any other character than the narrator.
Having said that there are times when the story dictates it is best for the narrator to be involved - at those times first person has greater immediacy. Usually third person works best as all the characters are allowed emotions and thoughts.
Finally I shall have my pet whinge. Do not become over reliant on Spell Checkers - they are thick. If a misspelled word spells a word the SC will not detect the mistake. eg from the story thought for though!
Finally short punchy sentences can work wonders. In the UK our tabloid Newspapers hardly ever use commas and one sentence equals a paragraph. No I do not advocate quite such short sentences or paras - they look OK in columns not cross page. However look at the work of James Patterson, look at his short punchy style, he was / is an ex journalist.
Having written all that I would like to say that I enjoyed the story.
jon
The only time my tutors thought it was apprpriate was in a "pitch", and then we often made the mistake of slipping out of the tense. - Personally I think it is a tense to avoid like the plague - there are far too many pitfalls. These were the grammatical errors KM spoke about, the narrator used the word "then" in the first para, consequently slipping into the past tense. Also she slipped in the same way in the second para - As I said, it is so easy to do.
Both first person and second person accounts pose a problem of repetition, how many ways can one say, I did or you did. They are also restrictive in that it is difficult if not impossible to communicate the feelings and emotions of any other character than the narrator.
Having said that there are times when the story dictates it is best for the narrator to be involved - at those times first person has greater immediacy. Usually third person works best as all the characters are allowed emotions and thoughts.
Finally I shall have my pet whinge. Do not become over reliant on Spell Checkers - they are thick. If a misspelled word spells a word the SC will not detect the mistake. eg from the story thought for though!
Finally short punchy sentences can work wonders. In the UK our tabloid Newspapers hardly ever use commas and one sentence equals a paragraph. No I do not advocate quite such short sentences or paras - they look OK in columns not cross page. However look at the work of James Patterson, look at his short punchy style, he was / is an ex journalist.
Having written all that I would like to say that I enjoyed the story.
jon
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cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
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Thanks to Killer Muffin, christo, Ray Dario, and jon.hayworth.
I do appreciate all your comments as I hope that it will improve my writing. I know I'm out of my league. That why I offered my story to be discussed as most of the comments I had recieved from here and friends, were mainly about the content not the way it was written.
I do appreciate all your comments as I hope that it will improve my writing. I know I'm out of my league. That why I offered my story to be discussed as most of the comments I had recieved from here and friends, were mainly about the content not the way it was written.
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Ray Dario
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CherryLips;
I certainly wouldn't say you are out of your league. You are a better writer than many here at lit, better than me for sure. Don't be put off by our comments. It may have felt like we were being brutal, but I know I didn't intend it that way and I don't think any of the others did either.
This discussion group helps us all, by looking at your story and taking the time to analyze it, I hope to improve my own writing and hopefully I may offer some comments you can use to improve your writing as well.
But don't get down on yourself, or feel like your not "good enough" to write here. You are good enough. But the only way to get better is to write and try to improve.
So keep writing and keep submitting so that we can enjoy the fruits of your hard work.
Ray
I certainly wouldn't say you are out of your league. You are a better writer than many here at lit, better than me for sure. Don't be put off by our comments. It may have felt like we were being brutal, but I know I didn't intend it that way and I don't think any of the others did either.
This discussion group helps us all, by looking at your story and taking the time to analyze it, I hope to improve my own writing and hopefully I may offer some comments you can use to improve your writing as well.
But don't get down on yourself, or feel like your not "good enough" to write here. You are good enough. But the only way to get better is to write and try to improve.
So keep writing and keep submitting so that we can enjoy the fruits of your hard work.
Ray
cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
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Thanks Ray,
What I meant by the out of my league comment was I just write, I don't know/ can't remember anything about sentence structure and the mechanical side of writing from my english classes.
I'm very greatful to any help I receive and I appreciate the constructive critism.
I'm here to learn and hopefully improve as time goes on.
What I meant by the out of my league comment was I just write, I don't know/ can't remember anything about sentence structure and the mechanical side of writing from my english classes.
I'm very greatful to any help I receive and I appreciate the constructive critism.
I'm here to learn and hopefully improve as time goes on.
Hope you all don't mind if I join in the circle?
I think the story is hot - not only in a strictly sexual way, but also in a sensual way. I believe you tried to really impress on your reader the feeling of the feather being used to tease the senses, and how the ice felt as its coldness dripped over her body. Very nice. And I like being tied up and blindfolded, so this story was something that I would be very interested in!
I think for a first effort you show a lot of promise. Hopefully, the more you write, the better you get at it. You have a great imagination, but I must agree on the grammatical stuff. Before I get to KillerMuffin's questions, I have really two things that stuck out for me.
1. The grammatical errors. Both spelling and sentence stucture. Your paragraphs seems a little off as well. I got the sense that you wrote this and submitted it quickly. It's tempting to do that, I know! However, I think if you had some one else review this first, or given it to a voluneer editor, they would have picked up a good deal of the spelling and gramatical problems. I know that it takes more time to do that, and we all want to see our stories in print right away, but sometimes the wait is worth it. Just something to consider in the future.
2. I kept getting confused on how the woman in the story knew what the man was doing. Okay, let me clarify that. She is blindfolded, so she would be unable to actually see what he was doing. Phrases such as this - "...looking up you see my chest rise and fall as I gulp in air." - left me wondering just how she knows that he's looking at her chest. I've written one story where the main character was blindfolded, and it was very difficult to write. I had to keep remembering that she couldn't see what anyone else was doing to or around her, and she could assume nothing. It might be the fact that you used 2nd person here that got me confused, but that is how I read it.
By the way, I really liked the ending! Anything that makes me drop my jaw and go "OMG!" is good. You did that for me! I do agree that a little dialogue at this point would have seemed natural and given the reader a little more insight into the characters.
Now, onto Muffy's questions:
1) Why is second person bad? I mean really, everyone says no and Muffie blathers about alienation (she watches too much TV), but why is second person a no-way jose way to write?
I don't know that second person is bad, but it does have the feeling of a story written solely between two people. I think that causes a reader to feel they are not as involved as they might be. I think it has a lot to do with being rather awkward to write in, as well as simply not being used all that often.
2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?
Yikes! Tenses - my worse downfall! I think present tense can bring about a sense of immediacy to the story, and that can be very arousing. I don't know that readers react differently to the story being in past tense as opposed to present tense. In this particular story, I found the situation hot and sensual and think I would have felt the same if it were in past tense as well.
Tenses are easy to mess up - no matter if it's past, present, or future! Okay, well, at least for me. I do believe a writer needs to take special care when reviewing and editing their work that the tense remains the same throughout the story. It is so easy to slide from one to the other while in throes of creating!
3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences.
Well, I'm seeing what amounts to sentence fragments. (Muffy, you are going to help us out on this one, aren't you?) Fragments can be used to highlight a point or to be used in dialogue, but when they occur throughout a story it's confusing and difficult to read. I don't know that all writers can recognize this while in the "haze of writerlust". But I do think when a writer reviews their story, while they are editing, hopefully they can look at their writing a little more objectively and make necessary corrections.
Since you ask what the error is and how to correct it, here is my input:
Original sentence (1st paragraph):
"Surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me."
My correction:
"I find myself surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me."
(Sorry my first post is so long - I do have a tendency to be verbose!)
I think the story is hot - not only in a strictly sexual way, but also in a sensual way. I believe you tried to really impress on your reader the feeling of the feather being used to tease the senses, and how the ice felt as its coldness dripped over her body. Very nice. And I like being tied up and blindfolded, so this story was something that I would be very interested in!
I think for a first effort you show a lot of promise. Hopefully, the more you write, the better you get at it. You have a great imagination, but I must agree on the grammatical stuff. Before I get to KillerMuffin's questions, I have really two things that stuck out for me.
1. The grammatical errors. Both spelling and sentence stucture. Your paragraphs seems a little off as well. I got the sense that you wrote this and submitted it quickly. It's tempting to do that, I know! However, I think if you had some one else review this first, or given it to a voluneer editor, they would have picked up a good deal of the spelling and gramatical problems. I know that it takes more time to do that, and we all want to see our stories in print right away, but sometimes the wait is worth it. Just something to consider in the future.
2. I kept getting confused on how the woman in the story knew what the man was doing. Okay, let me clarify that. She is blindfolded, so she would be unable to actually see what he was doing. Phrases such as this - "...looking up you see my chest rise and fall as I gulp in air." - left me wondering just how she knows that he's looking at her chest. I've written one story where the main character was blindfolded, and it was very difficult to write. I had to keep remembering that she couldn't see what anyone else was doing to or around her, and she could assume nothing. It might be the fact that you used 2nd person here that got me confused, but that is how I read it.
By the way, I really liked the ending! Anything that makes me drop my jaw and go "OMG!" is good. You did that for me! I do agree that a little dialogue at this point would have seemed natural and given the reader a little more insight into the characters.
Now, onto Muffy's questions:
1) Why is second person bad? I mean really, everyone says no and Muffie blathers about alienation (she watches too much TV), but why is second person a no-way jose way to write?
I don't know that second person is bad, but it does have the feeling of a story written solely between two people. I think that causes a reader to feel they are not as involved as they might be. I think it has a lot to do with being rather awkward to write in, as well as simply not being used all that often.
2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?
Yikes! Tenses - my worse downfall! I think present tense can bring about a sense of immediacy to the story, and that can be very arousing. I don't know that readers react differently to the story being in past tense as opposed to present tense. In this particular story, I found the situation hot and sensual and think I would have felt the same if it were in past tense as well.
Tenses are easy to mess up - no matter if it's past, present, or future! Okay, well, at least for me. I do believe a writer needs to take special care when reviewing and editing their work that the tense remains the same throughout the story. It is so easy to slide from one to the other while in throes of creating!
3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences.
Well, I'm seeing what amounts to sentence fragments. (Muffy, you are going to help us out on this one, aren't you?) Fragments can be used to highlight a point or to be used in dialogue, but when they occur throughout a story it's confusing and difficult to read. I don't know that all writers can recognize this while in the "haze of writerlust". But I do think when a writer reviews their story, while they are editing, hopefully they can look at their writing a little more objectively and make necessary corrections.
Since you ask what the error is and how to correct it, here is my input:
Original sentence (1st paragraph):
"Surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me."
My correction:
"I find myself surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me."
(Sorry my first post is so long - I do have a tendency to be verbose!)
KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
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You are more than welcome here chele!
And yes, her favorite booboo is sentence fragments. The kind that are easily disguised to everyone but us grammar freaks. If I recall correctly, there was at least one in every paragraph. If I recall.
In general, her favorite word to leave off is the subject. To fix that error, make sure every sentence has a subject.
Fragments are a powerful tool that a writer can use to give particularly emphasis to something important. However they should be used even more sparingly than adverbs and "said" words.
And yes, her favorite booboo is sentence fragments. The kind that are easily disguised to everyone but us grammar freaks. If I recall correctly, there was at least one in every paragraph. If I recall.
In general, her favorite word to leave off is the subject. To fix that error, make sure every sentence has a subject.
Fragments are a powerful tool that a writer can use to give particularly emphasis to something important. However they should be used even more sparingly than adverbs and "said" words.
Whispersecret
Clandestine Sex-pressionist
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I didn't read your story, but I have some comments I hope will help anyway.
There's a difference between a fragment that provides emphasis and a mistake. (Sorry, Cherry! I wish there was a kinder way of labeling a mistake.) It's always obvious to me which is which because I, like Muff, have a sort of interalized grammar checker. I wish there was a way for me to explain how to recognize them easily, but there isn't.
One thing that might help, though, is realizing that many beginning authors overuse "as" phrases and gerunds, which are "ing" phrases. ("As he looked her over..." and "Thinking they were unobserved...")
Beginners often think that these phrases, especially when they're longer, constitute sentences. In actuality, they're only extras that you add to a basic sentence, like special sauce on a burger. So, when you're revising, you could just keep your eye out for these and make sure they're complete sentences.
Ever part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs.
Here's a case where you were so wrapped up in your description of the action that the grammar got away from you. The second "sentence" isn't a sentence because it lacks a verb. It starts out with "The sides of my body," which is the subject. But you never tell what the sides of her body do. I hope I'm explaining this clearly.
You're probably thinking right now, "But the sides of her body don't DO anything. It's the feather doing stuff." I know. That's why it's a mistake. Because you have a period after "down my arms," you've ended the previous sentence. The new sentence MUST have a subject (something that's doing something) and the way it reads, "the sides of my body" appears to be the subject. (This is why we have rules of grammar, to make the written language standard enough so that we can all understand what a writer meant.)
The second "sentence" is actually just a continuation of the first sentence. It keeps talking about what he's doing with the feather. However, if you made it one sentence, it would be way too long. Here is how it could be fixed:
Every part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. You pay attention to each of my ten fingers. I shiver as the feather tickles the sides of my body, my breasts and nipples, each rib in turn, my stomach, my navel. And finally my inner thighs.
--I took out "lightly" because tickling implies lightness. Avoid adverbs when possible, especially when they're unnecessary.
--I took out "firm" because when a character describes her/himself in a complimentary way it always feels conceited to me.
--I added some additional places for the feather to tease because...
--I added a final "sentence" which is actually a fragment for emphasis. In order for an emphatic fragment to work here, you have to build up to it.
--Also, notice the varying complexity of the sentences. The paragraph starts with a relatively complex sentence. So I made the next one very simple. Then, I switch back to something a little more complex. At last, you have that fragment at the end.
Varying the complexity of your sentences helps the flow and keeps your writing from seeming monotone, however, don't automatically go for a pattern: complex, simple, complex, simple, etc. The more your write (and read!) the more you should be able to feel the rhythm of what you're writing. Reading out loud is an excellent way to see if you're too regular in your rhythm.
I hope this helps.
There's a difference between a fragment that provides emphasis and a mistake. (Sorry, Cherry! I wish there was a kinder way of labeling a mistake.) It's always obvious to me which is which because I, like Muff, have a sort of interalized grammar checker. I wish there was a way for me to explain how to recognize them easily, but there isn't.
One thing that might help, though, is realizing that many beginning authors overuse "as" phrases and gerunds, which are "ing" phrases. ("As he looked her over..." and "Thinking they were unobserved...")
Beginners often think that these phrases, especially when they're longer, constitute sentences. In actuality, they're only extras that you add to a basic sentence, like special sauce on a burger. So, when you're revising, you could just keep your eye out for these and make sure they're complete sentences.
Ever part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs.
Here's a case where you were so wrapped up in your description of the action that the grammar got away from you. The second "sentence" isn't a sentence because it lacks a verb. It starts out with "The sides of my body," which is the subject. But you never tell what the sides of her body do. I hope I'm explaining this clearly.
You're probably thinking right now, "But the sides of her body don't DO anything. It's the feather doing stuff." I know. That's why it's a mistake. Because you have a period after "down my arms," you've ended the previous sentence. The new sentence MUST have a subject (something that's doing something) and the way it reads, "the sides of my body" appears to be the subject. (This is why we have rules of grammar, to make the written language standard enough so that we can all understand what a writer meant.)
The second "sentence" is actually just a continuation of the first sentence. It keeps talking about what he's doing with the feather. However, if you made it one sentence, it would be way too long. Here is how it could be fixed:
Every part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. You pay attention to each of my ten fingers. I shiver as the feather tickles the sides of my body, my breasts and nipples, each rib in turn, my stomach, my navel. And finally my inner thighs.
--I took out "lightly" because tickling implies lightness. Avoid adverbs when possible, especially when they're unnecessary.
--I took out "firm" because when a character describes her/himself in a complimentary way it always feels conceited to me.
--I added some additional places for the feather to tease because...
--I added a final "sentence" which is actually a fragment for emphasis. In order for an emphatic fragment to work here, you have to build up to it.
--Also, notice the varying complexity of the sentences. The paragraph starts with a relatively complex sentence. So I made the next one very simple. Then, I switch back to something a little more complex. At last, you have that fragment at the end.
Varying the complexity of your sentences helps the flow and keeps your writing from seeming monotone, however, don't automatically go for a pattern: complex, simple, complex, simple, etc. The more your write (and read!) the more you should be able to feel the rhythm of what you're writing. Reading out loud is an excellent way to see if you're too regular in your rhythm.
I hope this helps.
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cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
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Thanks to sexychele, killer muffin and whispersecret.
I have learnt alot by the advice given here and hope to be able to use it properly to improve my writing.
Thanks again to everyone.
I have learnt alot by the advice given here and hope to be able to use it properly to improve my writing.
Thanks again to everyone.
abashed-dreamer
Really Experienced
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Q
Q
Q
Last edited:
abashed-dreamer
Really Experienced
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Hi CL,
Much has been said about sentences, grammar, word choice.
Sexy Chele mentioned the issue, how she (the narrator) can see.
This problem is more complicated, in that you should, in my opinion, decide some things about this narrator.
Particularly since 'you' is addressed--which is hard to pull off-- is she 1a)talking to him right as it happens; 1b) talking to him inside her own head, only, as it happens, or 2)telling him a fantasy on the phone or in a letter. Or 3)reminding him what happened between them? It seems to be 1b), and that compounds the problem of telling the story, by making it present tense. VERY hard to pull off. "I feel you hand. You touch my breast and it tingles,... etc. " That immediacy would be hard to sustain. Consider how it would come that one person tells another moment by moment? It would have to be set up.
"You say, 'tell me what you feel'. "Ice. My nipple rising." 'and now?' 'ice cube, trailing down my stomach, drops of water on my pussy.' 'It excites you doesn't it." "yes my pussy is soaked and I can feel juices running down my legs.""
Consider also the problem of the other's mind. Is your narrator to know this, esp. as she is talking to him. You wrote:
Ever part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs. The back of my knee down my calves to my feet, then slowly working back up the other side. You watch me wriggle and squirm as you gently tease me, causing you to become aroused, as you know this is exactly how you want me. Finally the feather stops at the junction of my legs, you can see a moist spot on my sheer black g string realising that I’m just as turned on as you are.
Note" 'you know this is exactly how you want me' and 'realizing that I'm just as turned on as you are.' How could she know what he realizes, unless there's been some talk, esp. after the fact. If it were past tense (and throughout), it would be more plausible; 'you realized I was just as turned on as you.'
If you are to stay in her mind, in the present, she'd have to say,
(to herself) "you watch me and i guess this is how you want me.' or to him "You watch me. My pussy drips. 'This is how you want me, isn't it?'"
The man says almost nothing, except to hold still, and presumably this is to enable your surprise ending, but that also ties your hands, since that would be a way of letting the reader know about him. "You watch me. 'This is how I want you,' he says." I think some dialogue would enliven the story; maybe she just hears a whisper (hard to identify).
So pick a consistent narrative view point. As with other first person stories, the "I" is very limited, usually, in knowledge of other's thoughts, unless the story is retrospective and the "I" can have learned about the thoughts.
It's a decent try, in my opinion; keep up the work. Mechanics can be learned. In closing, unleash your imagination a bit more; it's kind of a stock scene, having mostly sexual detail; the cutting is nice, and the two dildos, but you have to work to make this kind of account fresh. Including some 'story' would help.
Best,
Jack.
Much has been said about sentences, grammar, word choice.
Sexy Chele mentioned the issue, how she (the narrator) can see.
This problem is more complicated, in that you should, in my opinion, decide some things about this narrator.
Particularly since 'you' is addressed--which is hard to pull off-- is she 1a)talking to him right as it happens; 1b) talking to him inside her own head, only, as it happens, or 2)telling him a fantasy on the phone or in a letter. Or 3)reminding him what happened between them? It seems to be 1b), and that compounds the problem of telling the story, by making it present tense. VERY hard to pull off. "I feel you hand. You touch my breast and it tingles,... etc. " That immediacy would be hard to sustain. Consider how it would come that one person tells another moment by moment? It would have to be set up.
"You say, 'tell me what you feel'. "Ice. My nipple rising." 'and now?' 'ice cube, trailing down my stomach, drops of water on my pussy.' 'It excites you doesn't it." "yes my pussy is soaked and I can feel juices running down my legs.""
Consider also the problem of the other's mind. Is your narrator to know this, esp. as she is talking to him. You wrote:
Ever part of my body is subject to this feeling as you sweep the feather over my face to my neck, my shoulders and down my arms. The sides of my body, over my firm breasts, lightly tickling my stomach then along my inner thighs. The back of my knee down my calves to my feet, then slowly working back up the other side. You watch me wriggle and squirm as you gently tease me, causing you to become aroused, as you know this is exactly how you want me. Finally the feather stops at the junction of my legs, you can see a moist spot on my sheer black g string realising that I’m just as turned on as you are.
Note" 'you know this is exactly how you want me' and 'realizing that I'm just as turned on as you are.' How could she know what he realizes, unless there's been some talk, esp. after the fact. If it were past tense (and throughout), it would be more plausible; 'you realized I was just as turned on as you.'
If you are to stay in her mind, in the present, she'd have to say,
(to herself) "you watch me and i guess this is how you want me.' or to him "You watch me. My pussy drips. 'This is how you want me, isn't it?'"
The man says almost nothing, except to hold still, and presumably this is to enable your surprise ending, but that also ties your hands, since that would be a way of letting the reader know about him. "You watch me. 'This is how I want you,' he says." I think some dialogue would enliven the story; maybe she just hears a whisper (hard to identify).
So pick a consistent narrative view point. As with other first person stories, the "I" is very limited, usually, in knowledge of other's thoughts, unless the story is retrospective and the "I" can have learned about the thoughts.
It's a decent try, in my opinion; keep up the work. Mechanics can be learned. In closing, unleash your imagination a bit more; it's kind of a stock scene, having mostly sexual detail; the cutting is nice, and the two dildos, but you have to work to make this kind of account fresh. Including some 'story' would help.
Best,
Jack.
cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
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- Jan 23, 2002
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Thanks abashed-dreamer for the help and taking your time to read it. I will be taking alot more into account with my future stories to improve things.
TheEarl
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"1) Why is second person bad? I mean really, everyone says no and Muffie blathers about alienation (she watches too much TV), but why is second person a no-way jose way to write?"
I personally like first person (I and me). You tend to get more personal with the character and it's easier to get the feelings in. However I think you're trying to go half and half with lots of "you know" and "you're thinking." It's difficult to pull off omniscience in the second person and you'd probably be better off concentrating on the senses of the first person rather than second guessing the thoughts of another character.
"2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?"
Very easy to mess up, but you've pulled it off nicely here. Present tense brings the reader immediately into the story and I liked the way you dropped the reader into the plot from the beginning. Easy to confuse people by doing that, but you've kept me interested and kept me informed of what's happening from the first sentence.
"3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences."
I'm not sure whether I'm on the same page as Killermuffin, but I found it was easy to get lost without commas. I felt there were were times when sentences could have been separated using commas to help the reader, eg.
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body making me want more and more from you."
I personally would have written:
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth, knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it, that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body, making me want more and more from you. "
Only three punctuation marks, but to my eyes that's easier to understand. Although I have been accused of being a comma-obsessed freak before.
Away from the leading questions, the storyline was excellently plotted, although the twist at the end did seem a little rushed; I felt there was more than one paragraph in that. You wrote something which I wouldn't normally read, but you drew me into it and kept me interested. I think that's a great complement: This story's good enough to attract people who aren't interested in that genre.
Hopefully I've been of some help.
The Earl
I personally like first person (I and me). You tend to get more personal with the character and it's easier to get the feelings in. However I think you're trying to go half and half with lots of "you know" and "you're thinking." It's difficult to pull off omniscience in the second person and you'd probably be better off concentrating on the senses of the first person rather than second guessing the thoughts of another character.
"2) Present tense is one of those iffy things. How do you think readers react to present tense? Is it better or worse? How easy is it to mess up?"
Very easy to mess up, but you've pulled it off nicely here. Present tense brings the reader immediately into the story and I liked the way you dropped the reader into the plot from the beginning. Easy to confuse people by doing that, but you've kept me interested and kept me informed of what's happening from the first sentence.
"3) Can you detect the primary grammatical error in her story? What is it and how do you fix it? How do you recognize it while you're happily writing along in a haze of writerlust? Hint: Paragraph has 1 incidence and Paragraph 2 has two incidences."
I'm not sure whether I'm on the same page as Killermuffin, but I found it was easy to get lost without commas. I felt there were were times when sentences could have been separated using commas to help the reader, eg.
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body making me want more and more from you."
I personally would have written:
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth, knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it, that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body, making me want more and more from you. "
Only three punctuation marks, but to my eyes that's easier to understand. Although I have been accused of being a comma-obsessed freak before.
Away from the leading questions, the storyline was excellently plotted, although the twist at the end did seem a little rushed; I felt there was more than one paragraph in that. You wrote something which I wouldn't normally read, but you drew me into it and kept me interested. I think that's a great complement: This story's good enough to attract people who aren't interested in that genre.
Hopefully I've been of some help.
The Earl
Whispersecret
Clandestine Sex-pressionist
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I personally would have written:
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth, knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it, that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body, making me want more and more from you. "
No. The second "sentence" isn't a sentence. It has no subject. I'm not even sure how to fix it so it's correct because of the darned present tense. Here's my attempt:
"I secretly wish it is/was(?) your cock I had in my mouth, but as soon as I begin to enjoy it, you take it away."
"Slowly you start sliding it back and forth in my mouth, knowing how much I love to suck cock. Secretly wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth, but no sooner had I really started to enjoy it, that you take it away. Tracing down my body once more, arriving at my clit, rubbing it gently as you turn it on. The vibrations are travelling through my body, making me want more and more from you. "
No. The second "sentence" isn't a sentence. It has no subject. I'm not even sure how to fix it so it's correct because of the darned present tense. Here's my attempt:
"I secretly wish it is/was(?) your cock I had in my mouth, but as soon as I begin to enjoy it, you take it away."
cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
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Thanks to The Earl for your comments and everyone who has taken their time to read and comment on my story.
DRxBlue
Literotica Guru
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Better late than--that other thing
This has been very informative to me. i had no idea how vast my ignorance was concerning the craft of writing.
These aspects of the story i cannot address in any detail, because i've never developed the "sense of rightness" for such things, nor the knowledge of theory upon which that sense is based.
i can identify with sensitivity to such things. As a musician i'm sometimes uncomfortably aware of mechanical mistakes made by other perfomers. If a guy is playing a minor 7th chord and uses the wrong scale with it, my teeth will grate and my enjoyment will be ruined.
i guess i'm more in the category of a "story teller" than a writer, but i can make a few comments.
i liked the story and agree with SexyChele that the end was a jaw dropper. The voice you chose to use, i did find restrictive. Since you allowed her only her immediate sensations, you couldn't use memories or much in the way of personal associations with the experiences she was having.
She speaks of choclate syrup, but no idea whether she likes chocolate. Does her mouth water? Does she think of sundaes at the malt shop in high school?
She can be "wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth" or "begging for you to fuck me as I want a real cock inside me", but we get to know very little of what she really likes or cares about.
That did put a little "distance" between the character and me. Now that i've read the criticism i can see why Muffy and Whispersecret make the points they do about things i've never noticed before.
For me, mistakes in grammar or improper verb conjugation won't bother me the way skipping the flatted 3rd in a blues scale might. i think i'm really pretty grateful about that. i'm too sensitive as it is.
Bet you had no idea what a can of worms you had opened. *chuckle* You keep writing though, you have a lot of imagination and with reality the way it is, good imagination is very important for all of us.
Sorry i took so long,
This has been very informative to me. i had no idea how vast my ignorance was concerning the craft of writing.
These aspects of the story i cannot address in any detail, because i've never developed the "sense of rightness" for such things, nor the knowledge of theory upon which that sense is based.
i can identify with sensitivity to such things. As a musician i'm sometimes uncomfortably aware of mechanical mistakes made by other perfomers. If a guy is playing a minor 7th chord and uses the wrong scale with it, my teeth will grate and my enjoyment will be ruined.
i guess i'm more in the category of a "story teller" than a writer, but i can make a few comments.
i liked the story and agree with SexyChele that the end was a jaw dropper. The voice you chose to use, i did find restrictive. Since you allowed her only her immediate sensations, you couldn't use memories or much in the way of personal associations with the experiences she was having.
She speaks of choclate syrup, but no idea whether she likes chocolate. Does her mouth water? Does she think of sundaes at the malt shop in high school?
She can be "wishing it was your cock I had in my mouth" or "begging for you to fuck me as I want a real cock inside me", but we get to know very little of what she really likes or cares about.
That did put a little "distance" between the character and me. Now that i've read the criticism i can see why Muffy and Whispersecret make the points they do about things i've never noticed before.
For me, mistakes in grammar or improper verb conjugation won't bother me the way skipping the flatted 3rd in a blues scale might. i think i'm really pretty grateful about that. i'm too sensitive as it is.
Bet you had no idea what a can of worms you had opened. *chuckle* You keep writing though, you have a lot of imagination and with reality the way it is, good imagination is very important for all of us.
Sorry i took so long,
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KillerMuffin
Seraphically Disinclined
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- Jul 29, 2000
- Posts
- 25,603
HOOK
Well, you've got one that's mildly interesting. The bait is the first sentence and the hook is the first paragraph. You've read enough stories on Lit by now, no doubt, that you read a paragraph or two and decide if you want to continue. You do that with books. You look at the cover, the back, and then the first page or two before you decide to read it. This is how readers choose material in general.
Your goal is to be read.
Blindfolded I sit nervously on the bed waiting for you to enter the room. I hear the door easing open as you step inside. Surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me. Setting a tray down beside the bed you then take the ties, caressing my body with them before securing me to the bedpost.
You've got a decent first paragraph. Ordinarily I'd back click at the first sentence, get to that later. What you'd like is an extraordinary first paragraph. One that makes the reader want to continue. What to do? Nervously. Struggle to guess. These are your only hints to your character's state of mind. There's nothing for me to latch onto as far as the character goes. It's a did that, did this sort of paragraph. Action is interesting, but not nearly as interesting as reactions to action.
"You then take the ties, caressing my body with them. I whimpered a little, both terrified and excited. I couldn't stop flinching because I didn't know what you were going to do. My fear, cocooned in the dark as I was, overwhelmed me. My fear and my blindness made every careless brush of your fingers feel like the arc of a live wire." That sort of thing.
CHARACTER
If you haven't already, please separate yourself from your character. The author should not write while imagining his or herself as "I." If you can't put distance between you and your characters, then move to third person.
Why should you do this? Personal fantasies are hotter, right? Sure. The problem is that it's next to impossible to develop yourself as a character. You aren't going to do things to you that yourself don't like. The things we make the characters suffer over are the things that develop them the best.
You're also going to leave out a lot of rich emotional detail. You're experiencing it as you write and the things you're doing to the character are the things that are making you experience your rich emotional detail. You're going to concentrate on what's make you hot thinking that's all there is. You're going to completely miss the reactions of "I" in favor of what's making "I" react, which is what the reader needs the most.
Readers don't just want to get off because of you. They want to feel like they're getting off with you. I always hate it when they ask me if my stories turn me on or make me get off because the truth is going to lessen their future KM reading experience.
POV
Don't write in second person. Ever. You alienated half of your audience because they don't have the proper genitalia. You alienated most of the rest because they don't react that way in those situations. From my experience most of the readership hates second person. I know that it feels more intimate, like you're speaking directly to the reader. It's not. You're speaking directly to the person in your head and that person matches about 1 reader, whomever you've imagined. You also tend to think of "you" as a lover or a person you wish was your lover and it's tailored to him or her. Because you both already know specific, and important, details, you leave those out of the story.
You also get into trouble like this:
Circling around my right nipple you watch as it grows under your touch then you quickly replace the ice with your warm mouth making me moan at the contrast. You're blindfolded. How do you know what "you" is doing? I think this has been pointed out prior.
I would personally prefer that beginners write in third person because it automatically creates that author~protagonist distance that's necessary in good writing. But first person is fine, too.
GRAMMAR
If you haven't got one, find a grammar book that'll teach you grammar.
The next thing to do is run all of your stuff through a grammar checker and pay attention to it. No, it's not going to catch a lot of it, but it does catch sentence fragments, you're favorite booboo.
You've got some run-on as well.
I would suggest that you read your stuff out loud, conversationally. Anything that doesn't make sense to you, rework it. Try the first paragraph and see what happens.
Well, you've got one that's mildly interesting. The bait is the first sentence and the hook is the first paragraph. You've read enough stories on Lit by now, no doubt, that you read a paragraph or two and decide if you want to continue. You do that with books. You look at the cover, the back, and then the first page or two before you decide to read it. This is how readers choose material in general.
Your goal is to be read.
Blindfolded I sit nervously on the bed waiting for you to enter the room. I hear the door easing open as you step inside. Surrounded by new smells and sounds as I struggle to guess what you have planned for me. Setting a tray down beside the bed you then take the ties, caressing my body with them before securing me to the bedpost.
You've got a decent first paragraph. Ordinarily I'd back click at the first sentence, get to that later. What you'd like is an extraordinary first paragraph. One that makes the reader want to continue. What to do? Nervously. Struggle to guess. These are your only hints to your character's state of mind. There's nothing for me to latch onto as far as the character goes. It's a did that, did this sort of paragraph. Action is interesting, but not nearly as interesting as reactions to action.
"You then take the ties, caressing my body with them. I whimpered a little, both terrified and excited. I couldn't stop flinching because I didn't know what you were going to do. My fear, cocooned in the dark as I was, overwhelmed me. My fear and my blindness made every careless brush of your fingers feel like the arc of a live wire." That sort of thing.
CHARACTER
If you haven't already, please separate yourself from your character. The author should not write while imagining his or herself as "I." If you can't put distance between you and your characters, then move to third person.
Why should you do this? Personal fantasies are hotter, right? Sure. The problem is that it's next to impossible to develop yourself as a character. You aren't going to do things to you that yourself don't like. The things we make the characters suffer over are the things that develop them the best.
You're also going to leave out a lot of rich emotional detail. You're experiencing it as you write and the things you're doing to the character are the things that are making you experience your rich emotional detail. You're going to concentrate on what's make you hot thinking that's all there is. You're going to completely miss the reactions of "I" in favor of what's making "I" react, which is what the reader needs the most.
Readers don't just want to get off because of you. They want to feel like they're getting off with you. I always hate it when they ask me if my stories turn me on or make me get off because the truth is going to lessen their future KM reading experience.
POV
Don't write in second person. Ever. You alienated half of your audience because they don't have the proper genitalia. You alienated most of the rest because they don't react that way in those situations. From my experience most of the readership hates second person. I know that it feels more intimate, like you're speaking directly to the reader. It's not. You're speaking directly to the person in your head and that person matches about 1 reader, whomever you've imagined. You also tend to think of "you" as a lover or a person you wish was your lover and it's tailored to him or her. Because you both already know specific, and important, details, you leave those out of the story.
You also get into trouble like this:
Circling around my right nipple you watch as it grows under your touch then you quickly replace the ice with your warm mouth making me moan at the contrast. You're blindfolded. How do you know what "you" is doing? I think this has been pointed out prior.
I would personally prefer that beginners write in third person because it automatically creates that author~protagonist distance that's necessary in good writing. But first person is fine, too.
GRAMMAR
If you haven't got one, find a grammar book that'll teach you grammar.
The next thing to do is run all of your stuff through a grammar checker and pay attention to it. No, it's not going to catch a lot of it, but it does catch sentence fragments, you're favorite booboo.
You've got some run-on as well.
I would suggest that you read your stuff out loud, conversationally. Anything that doesn't make sense to you, rework it. Try the first paragraph and see what happens.
cherrylips_au
Perhaps perhaps perhaps
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2002
- Posts
- 1,035
Thanks to Dx Blue and Killer Muffin for your taking your time to read and comment on my story.
Dx blue I really didn't have any idea about this "can of worms" but I know I have come away from it hopefully a lot wiser.
Killer Muffin I was wondering if you can pass on some more information about a grammer checker, I would be greatful and I'm sure any future readers of my stories.
Thanks again for everyone's time and feedback.
Dx blue I really didn't have any idea about this "can of worms" but I know I have come away from it hopefully a lot wiser.
Killer Muffin I was wondering if you can pass on some more information about a grammer checker, I would be greatful and I'm sure any future readers of my stories.
Thanks again for everyone's time and feedback.
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