.

[astralkiss]

.

 

[timberwolf05]

old days

Definitions please! I have read at least five or six things where this has been referred to, and je ne comprend pas...

there are more than 5 or 6 on the net to read. it was brought about from wwII and got into the gay community. strict ruling, strict protocols.
someone else will be able to tell you more but that is the gest of it.
thanks

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

there are more than 5 or 6 on the net to read. it was brought about from wwII and got into the gay community. strict ruling, strict protocols.
someone else will be able to tell you more but that is the gest of it.
thanks

This link is to the Leather Archives & Museum in Chicago. They have an extensive collection on the leather lifestyle and its history. If you are interested, check out the timeline links on this page. It will lay out a timeline on the evolution of the leather community. I found it to be a fascinating read, and a great debunker of all the bullshit information floating around out there.

http://www.leatherarchives.org/resources/resource.htm

Regards,

~Anelize

 

[Moleculor]

The way it was told to me was that if they're claiming to be "Old Guard" or "Old Guard Trained", and they're not a 70 year old gay biker who fought in the war, they're lying through their teeth.

Just glad I didn't fall for it three years ago.

 

[Netzach]

It's not quite that bad, but it's almost that bad.

I actually do know some people who are "Old Guard Trained" ie: trained by 70 yo gay bikers or trained by the people they trained. There's definitely protocol, but it's not all rigid pole up the ass protocol. Old Guard values do include things like loyalty, service, and commitment. For a view both romantic and unromantic, I recommend "To Love, Serve and Obey" Viola Johnson's memoir from that time period. Bear in mind it's one woman's story, but it's both critical and loving of that time and place.

There's also a hetero leather timeline that goes back mainly to prodommes and contact magazines that is fairly interesting as well and had its moments of formality. My slave served a lady during this period in the early 80's, at first in a professional capacity, later being taken on as a personal toy of sorts. Vi Johnson's story is compelling because it straddles the gay leather and professional Domme currents of the 70's.

 

[Gallant Man]

I've heard of Old Guard but never looked into it in any depth. There must be other long established organizations, (100 or more years old) with their own fundamentals and protocols. I'd be interested to hear more about the large established groups, even just the names? There must be something in Europe for example, or is it secret?
Anyone?

 

[Netzach]

According to the Leather History listserv I am on, the notion of "secret European Houses" is basically completely unproven.

 

[Gallant Man]

According to the Leather History listserv I am on, the notion of "secret European Houses" is basically completely unproven.

Thanks for the infomation and the source. It wouldn't be secret if it was proven, if you know what I mean. There's usually controversy over secrets unless they go public at some point. I'd find it hard to believe that nothing was going on, so it had to have been secretly, based on this input. Just speculation on my part and that's why I'm asking. Any other named "houses"?

 

[Etoile]

I was going to say something, but I totally defer to Netzach on this one!

Hey Netz, what's that listserv - can you PM me the info?

Another link on Old Guard history: http://www.fetishexchange.org/old-guard.shtml

 

[starla{TDM}]

Old Guard and this debate in the BDSM society has been around for years and years, I have been to munches, groups, fets and gatherings from Toronto to Florida and still have no real answer on it.

Some believe it some don't me, I think whatever works..


starla{TDM}
Property of TDM
Forever His

 

[Sir Quam]

According to the Leather History listserv I am on, the notion of "secret European Houses" is basically completely unproven.

Well then I do say I am not impressed with your "Leather History listserv", whatever that may be.

The history of secret European Houses from which the Old Guard took much of their tradition stems back many centuries when bacchanals of massive proportions would be held in the chateau's of the aristocrats in pre-revolutionary France. In fact, the culture was introduced to America by European Freemasons who were doing a lot of travelling during the reconstruction following the second world war.

 

[catalina_francisco]

It is thought the first written evidence of SM was in the novel Fanny Hill by John Cleland published in 1749. That aside, Amo also mentioned some things he had heard and which I remember hearing perhaps in history class a few years back where the traditions began in Greece where the role of Master was passed from father to son when the son turned 18, or probably as the case was, where the son became a Master after ascerting his rights as a Dominant on coming of age a completing the acts required to cross the threshold.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

there are more than 5 or 6 on the net to read. it was brought about from wwII and got into the gay community. strict ruling, strict protocols.
someone else will be able to tell you more but that is the gest of it.
thanks

...And that section of the history was thought to not so much have begun in the gay community but to have grown out of the leather biker culture which came into being following WWII, then adopted and adapted within the gay male community exclusive from and barring lesbian and heterosexual inclusion.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Well then I do say I am not impressed with your "Leather History listserv", whatever that may be.

The history of secret European Houses from which the Old Guard took much of their tradition stems back many centuries when bacchanals of massive proportions would be held in the chateau's of the aristocrats in pre-revolutionary France. In fact, the culture was introduced to America by European Freemasons who were doing a lot of travelling during the reconstruction following the second world war.

Things like "the Hellfire club" in which the nobility would find peasants to torture for the hell of it are remarkably unrelated to SM as I personally practise it, don't know about you.

The only real lineage that I can construct having to do with Europe, centuries past, and "secrecy" is the subculture of flagellant-prostitutes, which have always been around in some form or another. One that is not exactly well documented outside of naughty fiction.

It's like claiming Michelangelo was gay...well yes, he may have preferred buttsex with boys but his life bears little resemblance to "gay" as moderns and postmoderns experience it.

 

[Netzach]

...And that section of the history was thought to not so much have begun in the gay community but to have grown out of the leather biker culture which came into being following WWII, then adopted and adapted within the gay male community exclusive from and barring lesbian and heterosexual inclusion.

Catalina

one of the bones of contention is that there really are 2 old guards. One is predominantly gay leather, which both is and is not derived from biker culture (there are 2 strains of gay leather in the late 40's-60's, one is biker and very "outlaw" *film: Scorpio Rising by Kenneth Anger* one is rooted in the military and very "protocol". This tension still kind of exists...)

The second old guard is the mostly hetero old guard, predominantly centering around professional/lifestyle Dommes and documented best in old "contact magazines from the late 60's till the advent of the 'net.

 

[Etoile]

Hey Netz, do you know the origin of the name Hellfire? I know it's popular for BDSM clubs - I used to go to Hellfire in NYC, and I believe there is also one in Australia (Sydney?).

 

[Gallant Man]

Catalina and Etoile thank you and I've also noticed your informative responses in the past.

Netzach thank you again, I wonder if you limiting this to leather groups because I believe that there are more.

I'm wondering about any D/s group with methods and protocols, not to say that I'd agree with them, just curious about what's been documented. Kings have had harems since Biblical times and probably before.

Sir Quam I see that people are placing bets on you in another thread. I have my own theory but will wait a bit before saying anything. You offer your expert opinion in other threads. I'd like to know what house is the basis for your viewpoint if you don't mind my asking? Your theory above is supported by what was in the back of my mind and should have been obvious:
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/desade.htm

Starla{TDM} yes I agree what ever works, but I'm curious about these houses.

Well now I have a lemon meringue pie that I must go eat and enjoy!

one of the bones of contention is that there really are 2 old guards. One is predominantly gay leather, which both is and is not derived from biker culture (there are 2 strains of gay leather in the late 40's-60's, one is biker and very "outlaw" *film: Scorpio Rising by Kenneth Anger* one is rooted in the military and very "protocol". This tension still kind of exists...)

The second old guard is the mostly hetero old guard, predominantly centering around professional/lifestyle Dommes and documented best in old "contact magazines from the late 60's till the advent of the 'net.

 

[pierced pet (m)]

not sure about history of old guard being gay

i have been involved for many years in the "D's" as i am approaching the half century mark, and was introduced when i was 17. this was long before it became so public. My point is that i would be considered old guard?

Protocol has been a lynchpin in my training, admittedly, in my teens it was all about the sexual side ( what 17-19 yo would not do just about anything to have anytype of sexual relations with multiple beautiful women!) the protocols were something that helped to bond the scattered underground "family" together and identify each other when meeting.
After all these years it is what "makes serivng feel right"
Rereading what i have written i may have taken it a little off thread, but do hope it will make others think. There is so much in this lifestyle of different variations that it is my wish that the protocols do not vanish.

 

[Netzach]

Hey Netz, do you know the origin of the name Hellfire? I know it's popular for BDSM clubs - I used to go to Hellfire in NYC, and I believe there is also one in Australia (Sydney?).

Hellfire was a semi-secret society of British aristocracy, basically libertines who would run around playing mean and sometimes deadly (but often humorous) pranks on the local peasantry, get ripped, dress in drag, do sexually questionable things. I believe this was at it's height in the mid-late 1700s.

Brits or others with knowledge, correct my inaccuracies, this is a very cursory stab at it.