23 April: Advanced Gymnastics by MaxSebastian

[Weird Harold]

For discussion starting Mondy 23 April, we have a random pick from the top stories list in the Group Sex category.

Advanced Gymnastics
By MaxSebastian

 

[christo]

The folks at this all-girls school basically hired a wolf to run their hen house. Mr. Rogers (OUCH!) is a malevolent creature, using his position to seduce the young women placed in his charge. He's every parent's nightmare.

This story is reminiscent of one of the subplots of last year's "Sopranos", where the head soccer coach is having sex with one of his players. He's a great coach, all the parents are thrilled with how well the team is playing, but the girls hate him, knowing that he's fucking one of them on the sly.

In this story the abuse of power is even worse. You have a girls school, far off the beaten path. A coach with the authority to hold closed practices, just him and his pretty young gymnasts. It's an insulated, claustrophobic enviroment, taken to an extreme here.

Even if these girls are willing, if they're over 18 and willing to have sex with him, is Mr. Rogers still a monster? Are there relationships (boss/employee, teacher/student, mentor/neophyte) where any kind of sexual relationship is exploitative? Henry Kissinger said that "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac". Is Mr. Rogers simply using what power he has to get what he wants from girls who really should know better? Or is he a monster? I'd be very interested to see what direction the author meant for this story to take.

The story piqued my interest for a personal reason as well. I had a female friend who taught at an elite all-male school. She didn't live on campus, but the boys did. She's an attractive woman, she was in her mid-twenties when taught there. We used to kid her, how often did these female-deprived boys flirt with her, how often did she find flowers on her desk. "NEVER!" she complained. She was actually a little offended that none of them had even the tinest crush on her. If they found out that she was having private meetings with her students and insisting that they shave their pubes, they would have nailed her to a tree.

So, what do we make of Mr. Rogers? Of the clueless headmistress? Of this flock of totally obedient girls? Is the teacher/student relationship sacrosanct, or does the taboo just add to the spice of that kind of relationship. It's not supposed to happen, and it sure as hell does, all the time.

 

[LadyDarcy]

IMO, the author set the scene well and developed his characters. The story was troubling, however, in that a teacher should take such advantage of his charges. But perhaps more troubling to me is that all ten girls went along with his game - not one confronted him or ran in fear.

Even if these girls are willing, if they're over 18 and willing to have sex with him, is Mr. Rogers still a monster?

Mr. Rogers is not a monster. Part of me feels very sorry for him! He does not have a mature relationship and uses young, somewhat innocent girls. His lack of permanent attachment or support stucture is very sad. But it does not excuse his behavior.

Are there relationships (boss/employee, teacher/student, mentor/neophyte) where any kind of sexual relationship is exploitative?

Yes!!! Any situation where one person abuses his/her power is exploitative. It is only worse when the victim is young or too naive to understand how to handle the situation.

Remembering back to high school, there was a shop teacher (oh I can't remember his name!) who was a gorgeous, young man. ALL the female students had eyes for him and they all vied for his attention. myself included. We would end up doing those dumb, giggly teenage things, chock full of embarrassment, and swoon, if he so much as noticed. Oh we were dumb! But this is part of growing up, of discovering the differences that puberty brings, of learning how to react to someone of the opposite sex, and hopefully understanding oneself.

Mr. Rogers took advantage of this. This is particularly distasteful because he is a teacher (and not a sex ed teacher either). I expect that teachers are noble, kind individuals. They aren't in their profession to make big bucks - they are there to make an impression on a young person, to help a student grow and mature into a better human being. Mr. Rogers doesn't fit my image. So the story challenged my perception (as idealized as it may be).

 

[DarlingBri]

I'm sorry to say this...

I really enjoy these Discussion Circles. And christo's questions are always interesting lead-ins to good conversation. But in this instance, I found the whole setup so very implausible that I can't buy into this story enough to discuss any of these questions. I can't get to that point with this one.

Talk about lambs to the slaughter.

I guess I'll skip this week

 

[Weird Harold]

But in this instance, I found the whole setup so very implausible that I can't buy into this story enough to discuss any of these questions.

I think there is some confusion between reality and fantasy to this discussion so far.

What male has not at some point in his life wish he could get away with Mr.Rogers scam? I think all of us would like to have a harem that does exactly as we wished all the time.

There is also an interesting psychological question raised by the premise of this story.

Does self-conciousness affect the way atheletes perform? Will atheletes really do "anything" to win, even to the point of becoming sex-slaves to the coach?

In real life, there is really no question the Mr. Rogers would be a "monster" or at least a manipulative bastard. I think this was #62 on the top stories list when picked because it addresses men's "harem fantasy" in a plausible manner.

 

[nitengale]

my thoughts...

This story is written well and Max’s characters are well described in detail, physically.

As already mentioned, Mr. Rogers is certainly lacking something in his definition of ethics. From the minute he arrives at the school, it seems he is on a quest to build his little harem. I would have liked more background information on him. What were his other coaching jobs like? Is this harem building a hobby of his, so to speak? What is really going on in his head?

I found it hard to buy that all of the girls did exactly what he wanted without any fear or real reluctance. Ok, so the nearest male is miles away, but…?

WH raises a good point regarding self-consciousness affect the way athletes perform. I think this fact has been touched on, especially with the women’s field of gymnastics and the weight control issues. We have a group of young women at an age where looks are important, and if they are wearing body suits that just about adhere to their skin, then I believe that if they were not feeling good about their appearance, their performance would suffer.

As I read this story, I kept thinking about the person who ran the US gymnastics team (whose name escapes me). He was known for being somewhat brutal with the girls, so is it plausible to think he would be the type to make sure their pubic hair was not sticking out? Who knows?

Are there girls who might sleep with the coach to “win”? I’m not sure sleeping with the coach satisfies that goal, however there are other things an athlete might gain in doing so.

Teenaged Stepford wives?

 

[Sonia_de_Beaumanoir]

How is this possible?

I read this story before it appeared on the discussion board. Obviously the situation is totally implausible, but that aside, I find Max's writing to be very good.

What I can't fathom is how his stories get so many votes in a short time (questions of excellence aside). "The New Playmate's Friends" at the top of the Group Sex category has 576! votes since March 26. This gymnastics story has 276 since March 7. Since both of these stories are multi-page, we are asked to believe that this many readers went through all the pages and then voted mostly 5's. Sorry, I'm not buying it. I'm thinking ballot-box stuffing and hanging chads are at work. Maybe I'm wrong and there is a big fan-club of devoted readers.

I find it difficult to believe that all the girls on a high-school gym team would be 18+. I've noticed several stories lately where characters younger than this have been featured, apparently because there was no explicit age given. For example, the top-rated Voyeur story, "My Paperboy" features a high-school sophomore. Unless he was held back for a couple of years, the expected age would be 16.

Am I alone on these things?

Sonia

 

[KillerMuffin]

From what I understand Max has been around for a while, so he could have developed a group of people who watch for his stories. Ballot box stuffing is difficult to accomplish at the site, not mention that it is an accusation of voter fraud.

Consider the audience when you read the story. Who is clicking on his stories and reading them all the way through? The people who read them will consider the situation and the sex to be rather steamy hot, because the implausibility of the whole set up brings it right down into mainstream fantasy. What man wouldn't mind having a bevy of beautiful, young gymnasts available and willing to do whatever he wanted them to do?

In this instance, I believe the fantasy aspect of the story outweighs the mechanical aspect of it. Despite how possible it would be for it to have happened. It probably would override good writing, but Max writes well, so we'll never know.

 

[MaxSebastian]

hi everyone, thanks for the warm words of criticism. I'd just like to say that I have never ever been guilty of vote rigging. It's a thing that I have no need of and something that, if it does happen, revolts me to the core. If I was going to do such a thing, I think all my stories would have scored hundreds of votes rather than just a few. Actually, when Laurel put up that note showing how many people had read my story (not just voted on it) it was something over the 11,000 mark. So if only 500 or so have voted, that's not really too ridiculous, is it? Perhaps as a story it just attracted enough of those people to click the vote button

I wrote 'Advanced Gymnastics' to be purely a fantasy, something that does not try to be in any way realistic, as many stories on literotica also do. It is not supposed to harm anyone, just give a few people some enjoyment. People are free not to read it, after all. In fact, it's a shame you guys picked this story to criticise, because it's really not my best. The stories I have written that I am most proud of do not score highly at all (hence the not-guilty plea, your honour) and that is a shame, but there you go.

Perhaps you should pick editor's choices to criticise here and not the popular choice.

Please remember in your criticism of stories here that some of the tales on literotica are fantasies - and fantasies don't have to conform to reality, otherwise all that stuff in the 'incest' and 'non-human' section would be decidedly suspect.

Oh, and lastly, why not pick a story that's finished to criticise? I put the phrase 'to be continued...' at the end to indicate that it wasn't finished. The very fact that it is not finished before it has been criticised means that in all honesty, it may be very difficult for me now to finish.

Ah well, c'est la vie, as they say in China.

 

[nitengale]

Oh, and lastly, why not pick a story that's finished to criticise? I put the phrase 'to be continued...' at the end to indicate that it wasn't finished. The very fact that it is not finished before it has been criticised means that in all honesty, it may be very difficult for me now to finish.

I think Max raises a very valid point here. I think this same issue came up once before??

I know how he feels about having difficulty finishing something if it has not gotten a good review. Been there too...and I ended up trashing the conclusion. What I thought might be a good ending lost all it's zip.

Max I did read your other stories, and found them all to be very well written!! (or I would never have gone to you for help)

I hope you can see past feeling criticized.

 

[KillerMuffin]

The point of this whole board was to begin a discussion of stories, not to edit them, criticize them, or to give them feedback. Some people don't always follow that.

This story engendered quite a discussion about motivations and perception of characters. It's a hallmark of a good writer that there can be an in depth discussion of the characters, that means he made them human and gave them life. The story did was effective. It may not be what the author had in mind as effective, but it moved people, made them react to it on an emotional level. This is good writing.

The discussion didn't center on what sorts of things the author could do to improve his writing. It centered on the character and the plot. I think that Max Sebastian accomplished something most authors here aspire to, making a story that stands out for the story, not because it made the keyboard sticky.

It is the author's right not to have his story discussed. If he wishes the deletion of this thread, than I have no difficulties with having my posts deleted along with it.

 

[nitengale]

writer's permission

Are we still obtaining the writer's permission to review their story in this forum?

I wasn't sure.

 

[alexander tzara]

I think we should learn from this and in future not review incomplete stories. I totally understand what MaxSebastian says about how any kind of criticism (good or bad) can really knock your creative flow. I wrote the first three chapters of the Madonna story in a quick enthusiastic stream of words. But as soon as they were posted and I started getting 1s and quite a few critical emails ("Madonna isn't intelligent, she's a vacuous bitch!" etcetera), I lost all enthusiasm. I haven't been able to face it since. When you're still in the process of writing a story you're baring a lot of yourself. Your emotions can be overly fragile until the point you've actually finished it so that unless you get 5 stars and a review proclaiming you to be the greatest writer EVER, you can easily lose the motivation to continue. That's why I usually like to finish a story and do at least a couple of rewrites before I let anyone else read it.

I thought that 'Advanced Gymnastics' was well written - no major glaring errors in grammar, spelling etc, and it flowed pretty well. I got the sense very early on that it was very much in the realm of fantasy, so the fact that the gymnasts reacted to Mr Rogers more like actors in a porno-film than real-life girls didn't particularly bother me. As people have mentioned - the Harem Of Willing Lovers works well as an erotic premise.

Mr Rogers did disturb me though. I didn't like him as a central character - for all the reasons Christo and others mentioned. There was obviously never any mention of the girls' ages but they were mostly described in a way that made them seem very young - they were all small breasted (apart from one) and there were numerous mentions of "tiny hands" etcetera, that gave me the strong impression they were still going through puberty.

I personally don't like stories about some of the more taboo subjects that are often covered in erotica - non-consent, bestiality, incest (unless it's done in a completely unrealistic fantasy style) and characters who appear to be underage being coerced into sex by adults - so I found that this whole element spoiled the story for me. If it had been obviously adult women gymnasts involved, and it had been in another establishment, outside the school setting, it would have worked much better for me.

 

[christo]

sex and power

I think Max makes a good point, one that has been raised by other authors in the past (and not necessarily in this group) that the author does not necessarily condone the subject he/she is writing about. I will with some reluctance confess that the idea of having a bevy of athletic nymphs at my beck and call and totally under my omnipotent thumb is not completely repugnant <g>. The fact that Mr. R is exploiting young women in his charge doesn't necessarily mean that the author is all for locking girls up in boarding schools and bringing in hunky coaches to put them thru their paces.

And reading an unfinished work means that the author's eventual attitude toward the subject isn't fully known. Who knows what fate befalls him?

I have to admit, the fact that the coach is named Mr. Rogers is hilarious. I had to bang my head against the table a few times to get the image of sweater vests and X the Owl out of my head. Dunno if it was deliberate, but it just goes to show that what you name a character can be very important in setting a tone, or an attitude, for the character.

So far as accusations of ballot box stuffing go, ehh. Habeus corpus. Produce the evidence. I think that sometimes stories that deal with taboos hit nerves with people and spur a large vote turnout. Incest stories sometimes get lots of votes, and this story certainly fits the bill. In school we guys were surrounded by beautiful, unattainable (at least for me) girls, and here we have a situation with a man living out the fantasy of every 16-year-old guy who stared at the girl in his math class who never wore a bra.

But I think that more explanation, more exposition, would have made this unusual situation more plausible. And perhaps the chapters following would have helped with that.

Oh, and just a personal note. I went to college at a school with a good women's gymnastics team, and as a dewy freshman me and my friends decided to go to a meet to, well, ogle the girls. Anyway, our floor leader, a worldly senior, told us not to bother. Gymnasts are sluts, he assured us (rumor and innuendo later proved him true). And, he said ominously, gymnasts have incredibly powerful bodies, their size belies their strength, and if you're fucking a gymnast and she squeezes her feminine muscles, BANG! You're stuck inside her like a mouse in a trap. Total bullshit, to be sure...or is it? Maybe Mr. Rogers has a cruel end in store for him.

 

[Weird Harold]

And reading an unfinished work means that the author's eventual attitude toward the subject isn't fully known. Who knows what fate befalls him?

I sometimes wonder why authors post "unfinished" stories. Especially when so many that end with "to be continued" never are continued. Excluding those stories from discussion would eliminate about 20% of the stories on this site from consideration.

I can understand that some authors want some feedback to guide them in how the story is to continue, and others post multi-part stories one episode at a time in hopes of a "saturday morning serial effect" drawing in more readers.

My personal philosophy is to hold all parts of a story until it's complete before posting any part. I've had too many story ideas stall before completion to assume that feedback will help me complete the story at some later time.

 

[HSWriter]

The very fact that it is not finished before it has been criticised means that in all honesty, it may be very difficult for me now to finish.

Max, for the sake of myself and everyone else who enjoyed your story, I hope you do finish it. It was a very hot story, and unlike some of the more "critical" members, I can see justification in it's high marks. A very good story, indeed..

 

[Sonia_de_Beaumanoir]

Abject Apology

In reading this thread and others on the board, it appears to me that my previous post was both insensitive and out of line. I had no intention of either accusing Max, the author, of voter fraud or of whining about my own scores.

So please accept my apology if I have insulted anyone here. If I could I would delete my post.

And once again, I liked the story.