229 years ago, today

[jasonlf]

229 years ago, today, 12 yes votes and one abstain vote caused the greatest nation in the world to declare independence.

Good times

Happy b-day, America.

 

[canadiancutie]

229 years ago, today, 12 yes votes and one abstain vote caused the greatest nation in the world to declare independence.

Good times

Happy b-day, America.

America is a little bit lame. That being said, my visa application got rejected. Sexual favours in exchange for a year of marriage anyone?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Once I would have joined the happy thoughts on your independance day but can no longer...sorry. I guess it comes down to how you measure the greatest nation factor....the rest of the world does not seem to share the view the US comes close to it, quite the reverse for many, and also a view shared by many Americans themselves.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

I think a lot of the world, especially Europeans, have penis envy when it comes to America. The only comparison that can be made is if you lump all those former imperialistic continental counties into one. And I wonder if they'll ever get along enough to do that. America isn't perfect, but the waiting list to get in is a lot bigger than the one to get out. I'm not leaving. And if you are European, and you don't speak German or Russian, you are welcome.

 

[canadiancutie]

I think a lot of the world, especially Europeans, have penis envy when it comes to America. The only comparison that can be made is if you lump all those former imperialistic continental counties into one. And I wonder if they'll ever get along enough to do that. America isn't perfect, but the waiting list to get in is a lot bigger than the one to get out. I'm not leaving. And if you are European, and you don't speak German or Russian, you are welcome.

I think I hate you. The reason the waiting list is long to get into America is they control everything. Trust me, if I could get internships worth having here, I wouldn't be moving. Controlling everything doesn't make you better, if anything it's the opposite. Countries don't hate you because of penis envy, more because you're evil and destroy others to benefit yourselves. Long story short, America should implode.

 

[Aeroil]

I think I hate you. The reason the waiting list is long to get into America is they control everything. Trust me, if I could get internships worth having here, I wouldn't be moving. Controlling everything doesn't make you better, if anything it's the opposite. Countries don't hate you because of penis envy, more because you're evil and destroy others to benefit yourselves. Long story short, America should implode.

The opinion writerdom said there was one that America seems unified on, "If we're so bad, why do we have so many immigrants?". And, of course, like a good many other things, America is unique in holding such an opinion.

 

[onceburned]

The opinion writerdom said there was one that America seems unified on, "If we're so bad, why do we have so many immigrants?".

Nah, I wouldn't say that unifies us so much as derives from what unifies us.

If we share anything in common it is a myopia when it comes to world affairs. We have a hard time looking beyond our borders, let alone understanding what is happening in other countries. And few of us care.

The United States is a wonderful place to live. But its foreign policy makes it less than wonderful to live somewhere else.

 

[h_i_s]

Happy Birthday USA !
(geez, i needed to color the background in order to have a white 'S'... who stole the background paint can?!!? )

The USA has/has had it's flaws, just as any other country does. The USA has provided itself many reasons throughout history, to be celebrated as well, as i'm certain others have, also.

It's interesting, how many are quick to recall the evils, and self serving tendancies of the USA. It's also interesting, just how quickly, just as many, are quick to 'overlook' the many wonderful, gracious acts that the USA has bestowed upon other countries throughout history, as well.

The scales are balanced quite well, over all.

American. Proud of it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Nah, I wouldn't even say that unifies us. The United States is a wonderful place to live. But its foreign policy makes it less than wonderful to live somewhere else.

If anything unfies us its a myopia when it comes to world affairs. We have a hard time looking beyond our borders, let alone understanding what is happening in other countries.

That is much of it along with the fact you can't even fart without the government investigating why you farted, if you did it with malicious intent, whether it means you are going to try and blow the whitehouse up, and damn just the fact you farted proves you have an arsehole which is pornographic and inappropriate. I figure if you can't even borrow from the library without it becoming something the government can investigate to determine whether your reading record shows suspicious behaviour requiring incarceration, the country is way too paranoid. Not to mention why a government feels it has the need to police what takes part in the privacy of your own bedroom and with consent not involving or hurting anyone else is beyond me....and as I mentioned on another thread, policing credit card useage so you cannot use your credit card to pay for anything considered adult material/porn....what f****** business is it of theirs if I want to buy a vibrator or join a personals site to meet a fuck buddy?!! If Bush and his cronies fucked a bit more they may not be so uptight and anal retentative.

As to penis envy, I don't think so. LOL, immigration to here is also high WD and not just from the US. I come from the land down under and unfortunately despite most of my American friends wanting to move there permanently, it also is inflicted with the US paranoia and denial of a right to privacy and freedom which is increasing the loss of liberty for all. There you get reported on if you transfer a sum of money from your account to another family member's account....my mother has had it happen repeatedly when we have transferred money to pay each other for things the other has bought for us, and we are talking pittance sums here like $50....we are informed by the bank that they have to file a report with the government so they can decide whether to investigate further why we transferred that sum of money!! Then of course I have had personal experience with the checking of personal mail and phone calls between the US and Oz which was just friends getting in touch but the US government felt a need to check up on which meant they had read the mail and also traced the phone call between us. The thing I like about Europe as far as I have seen is it is at least open and honest about what it checks up on and why, not sneaky and underhanded while proclaiming all along it isn't doing anything of the sort. I intially thought it a bit over the top to have to have your identity card on you at all times, but hey, at least they are checking people openly, not bugging their home phones and mailboxes. If only the US, UK and Oz could put the money they spend on killing and suppressing people into fighting disease and poverty, what a wonderful world we could have.

Catalina

 

[chris9]

229 years ago, today, 12 yes votes and one abstain vote caused the greatest nation in the world to declare independence.

Good times

Happy b-day, America.

It was an important day for the whole world and I am happy that some men 229 years ago decided to take responsibiliy and to make their nation independant and better.
I most certainly don't agree to the "greatest" nation statement. In this I don't think I'm influenced by the present politics/politicians. I just feel that every nation has good and bad parts and to me, it is important that people can live freely and pursue their own happiness (for which the US doesn't have a monopoly).
Still I am grateful for the interference of the US during and after WWII as it gave us the opportunity to create a stable democracy with a great constitution.
I am a bit apprehensive about being 'proud' of one's nation, though. For me, pride is something I can have in thinks I achieved, like good grades, passing a difficult exam, buying my own house, educating my children to become responsible adults. So personally I am glad that I live in a free countrey where I can do what I want, glad that 56 years ago some Germans were smart enough to learn from mistakes and dared to start again. Maybe this is only, because from the German history pride in the nation is seen as a negative thing.

 

[WriterDom]

Who are we suppressing? The Iraqis? Let's see, what would be better, freedom or Saddam Hussein? There is still time to put Saddam on the ballot. But you better hurry, the trial will start in a few months.

 

[Netzach]

I love my country. I love the principles on which they signed that stuff, even though they did not have the imagination and foresight to include everyone when they said "everyone". In terms of where you could expect someone to be, mentally, in those times, they were pretty radical.

I love my country. I love our insane individualism, our demented notion that even the least of us can make it, gonna make it, even when it's patently not true.

I am very sad for where it is now. I see an erosion of rights, an erosion of possibilities. I see everyone taking the attitude that the poor do not need to be actual participants in the democratic and societal process, fuck them, so when the poor begin to take that same attitude, why is there surprise?

And if I didn't believe every insane pendulum swing does eventually swing back toward a sane center, I would be considering leaving with much more seriousness, BECAUSE I love this place and I can't believe in it if it stays like this.

There's a wide world out there and if you think you can divide it into "USA" and "everything else is a third world hole" you need to get out more.

 

[Netzach]

Who are we suppressing? The Iraqis? Let's see, what would be better, freedom or Saddam Hussein? There is still time to put Saddam on the ballot. But you better hurry, the trial will start in a few months.

Let's see, daily bombs falling on my head and a good chance that there will be a fundamentalist regime elected or a groundswell of fundamentalist crazies rising to alternative forms of power....

or a secular, yet fascist regime run by a lunatic.

Sounds like great options. Thanks USA.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Who are we suppressing? The Iraqis? Let's see, what would be better, freedom or Saddam Hussein? There is still time to put Saddam on the ballot. But you better hurry, the trial will start in a few months.

LOL, boy you do miss a lot of what is happening if you believe the US is not suppressing anyone!! Let's begin with their economic fist which prevents developing nations from making money because the US forbids it....one example is the rule that though the Cola nut (used in Coca Cola....US owned and TMed) grows in abundance in Africa, and reduced to powder form is worth a mint compared to in it's raw state which makes barely enough money to live on, they are forbidden to make it into powder form and sell it by US policy. And that is just one of the US ecoomic policies which are used to suppress profits in many countries, and a chance for them to become wealthy.

You know sometimes the US is not the best judge of what is best for everyone else in the world, especially when it involves different cultures, different priorities. When Bushie tells a country that asks when the US will leave that he is not going to give a date for when the US will leave their country, I call that dictatorship, invasion, and illegal occupation, not the promotion liberty and democracy that Bush parrot fashions in all his news conferences. I don't recall Saddam occupying American soil...and have we found those weapons of mass destruction yet? Then you can also look at the open talk at professionally run seminars held for the purpose of taking advantage (not helping), of profits to be made by American companies and Americans from the destruction of another country and culture....yeah, I wish we all had such benevolent feelings toward others who happen to irritate us because they do not share our beliefs and we don't exactly understand, not to mention have huge oil deposits to exploit and profit from....better to just exterminate or convert them to the American way then everyone is happy, healthy, free and prosperous, huh?

Don't you think it more than sick to dock a marine's pay because he was killed in combat? IMHO, the American ideal and dream died a long time ago to be replaced by something that is the opposite of everything that was ever intended. Let's face it, part of that history was built on wanting to be independent of the cultures and rules the forefather's left behind, so why now begin trying to tell all the world how to live and forcing it on them, and trying to maintain power over them, if that independence is so great?!!

Catalina

 

[jasonlf]

That is much of it along with the fact you can't even fart without the government investigating why you farted, if you did it with malicious intent, whether it means you are going to try and blow the whitehouse up, and damn just the fact you farted proves you have an arsehole which is pornographic and inappropriate. I figure if you can't even borrow from the library without it becoming something the government can investigate to determine whether your reading record shows suspicious behaviour requiring incarceration, the country is way too paranoid. Not to mention why a government feels it has the need to police what takes part in the privacy of your own bedroom and with consent not involving or hurting anyone else is beyond me....and as I mentioned on another thread, policing credit card useage so you cannot use your credit card to pay for anything considered adult material/porn....what f****** business is it of theirs if I want to buy a vibrator or join a personals site to meet a fuck buddy?!! If Bush and his cronies fucked a bit more they may not be so uptight and anal retentative.

Quite frankly, yes, it does suck that some of our freedoms have been eroded... but here's the sad part:

We're losing the last free, capitolistic oasis. Most other nations in the world are in a big government socialist mode.... it's really quite sad.

That's why I hope that by the 230th birthday, the SC makes more sense, and overturns some of these horrid, horrid decisions of late, expecially regarding property rights.

But, overall, America is doing decent when it comes to freedom. Yeah, Patriot Act goes overboard (power+governmenteople::angry bull:china shop)... but still, get a decent SC, and those things can be rolled back.

If you agree with me, then you need to begin showing it with your vote. Neither of the main groups are truly for indvidual rights anymore, despite what they say. That's why I'm a registered Libertarian.

Okay, rant over. America owns, although significantly less than 50 years ago. It's time for us to stand up, like they did 229 years ago, and declare ourselfs independent from big, nosy government.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

You know...

Enough kittycat. If you're going to throw out accusations of war profiteering, take a good look at the history (to include the recent decade) of nations in Europe and Asia. i'll only mention the UN's "Oil for Food" program and drop it.

As for docking of pay, that's what bean counters do. What you didn't mention is why. The number of financial transactions surrounding the death of that Marine (that noun is proper and always capitalized by the way) would piss off any accountant in any other financial establishment. Stopping a dead man's pay enables the payment of the death benefits as morbid as that sounds. Makes about as much sense as requiring a death certificate to officially bury someone, but someone has to dot the eyes and cross the tees.

 

[Netzach]

Enough kittycat. If you're going to throw out accusations of war profiteering, take a good look at the history (to include the recent decade) of nations in Europe and Asia. i'll only mention the UN's "Oil for Food" program and drop it.

As for docking of pay, that's what bean counters do. What you didn't mention is why. The number of financial transactions surrounding the death of that Marine (that noun is proper and always capitalized by the way) would piss off any accountant in any other financial establishment. Stopping a dead man's pay enables the payment of the death benefits as morbid as that sounds. Makes about as much sense as requiring a death certificate to officially bury someone, but someone has to dot the eyes and cross the tees.

Good point. The history of the entire West is filled with problematic activities. The main difference is that the US has consistently tried to paint itself as *above that kind of thing*. That's what I see as the difference. We're younger, we're a lot younger, therefore more idealistic and less willing to acknowledge our faults.

You have good insight into the necessary beaurocracy of the military. I'd like to see W make the small gesture of attending a military funeral at some point, though or has he managed to pencil that one in at last and I missed it?

The scary thing that I see happening is that the middle classes and our representatives own families are less involved in this and the last Gulf than they've ever had to be in a war or war effort, even on symbolic levels.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Quite frankly, yes, it does suck that some of our freedoms have been eroded... but here's the sad part:

We're losing the last free, capitolistic oasis. Most other nations in the world are in a big government socialist mode.... it's really quite sad.

That's why I hope that by the 230th birthday, the SC makes more sense, and overturns some of these horrid, horrid decisions of late, expecially regarding property rights.

But, overall, America is doing decent when it comes to freedom. Yeah, Patriot Act goes overboard (power+governmenteople::angry bull:china shop)... but still, get a decent SC, and those things can be rolled back.

If you agree with me, then you need to begin showing it with your vote. Neither of the main groups are truly for indvidual rights anymore, despite what they say. That's why I'm a registered Libertarian.

Okay, rant over. America owns, although significantly less than 50 years ago. It's time for us to stand up, like they did 229 years ago, and declare ourselfs independent from big, nosy government.

Capitalism is not that great when it annihates and discriminates against all but a select few who hold all the wealth and power....and unfortunately, like many Americans, you think the US is the only capitalist oasis?....hmm, begin getting out and finding out how other countries live before deciding that please. I am not living in a slum in Europe I can assure you and my neighbourhood, like most of The Netherlands is a mix of just about every culture and race on earth.....lots of immigrants living alongside Dutch.

Freedom I don't think is real in the US, but is tokenistic and a good illusion for those who do not look below the surface and believe what they are told....why, because tha=ey are the politicians and so wise and honest they would not mislead you, right? Complacency is part of the reason Hitler got so far before anyone got off their backside....history shows repeatedly people find it easier to bury their head in the sand until directly affected unfortunately. Bottom line is the world did not vote George Bush in or ask him to take them over and impose his values and beliefs on them....if democracy is so important to him and the US, why support the oppression of the right for others to live how they want and feel is of value for them? Could it be it is more related to the dollar sign in the brains of the greedy than the desire to free people and give them a choice in their destiny?

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Good point. The history of the entire West is filled with problematic activities. The main difference is that the US has consistently tried to paint itself as *above that kind of thing*. That's what I see as the difference. We're younger, we're a lot younger, therefore more idealistic and less willing to acknowledge our faults.

My point exactly, and where the danger lies....there is a complete lack of guilt, responsibilty, and acknowldegement of what motivates the decisions.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

Quite frankly, yes, it does suck that some of our freedoms have been eroded... but here's the sad part:

We're losing the last free, capitolistic oasis. Most other nations in the world are in a big government socialist mode.... it's really quite sad.

I was just listening to something on the CBC about Brits, and it was mentioned that there's a wave of entrepreneurship in Britain among the elderly, post-retirement. Ireland has net *immigration* for the first time in 1000 plus years.

Europe is still generally not as easy a place to start your new biz in, and I think that Americans tend to work better globally because we do have a precedent in dealing more often and more effectively with diverse corporate workplaces. We have certain strengths, but I don't think that capitalism would dry up and cease to exist when mixed with some social responsiveness to those who are not benefitting or mainstreaming.

 

[Netzach]

My point exactly, and where the danger lies....there is a complete lack of guilt, responsibilty, and acknowldegement of what motivates the decisions.

Catalina

Well, yeah, but I don't know that the theoretical implications of that mattered to an Algerian or a Congolese or a Maori or a Malian. I don't think that Europe has a good track record of apology or guilt, I just see it as consistant that European nations never claimed to be land of the free, helping the people they were bludgeoning. They were more than happy to insist their colonies were peopled with inferior people who needed guidance and reform.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Enough kittycat. If you're going to throw out accusations of war profiteering, take a good look at the history (to include the recent decade) of nations in Europe and Asia. i'll only mention the UN's "Oil for Food" program and drop it.

As for docking of pay, that's what bean counters do. What you didn't mention is why. The number of financial transactions surrounding the death of that Marine (that noun is proper and always capitalized by the way) would piss off any accountant in any other financial establishment. Stopping a dead man's pay enables the payment of the death benefits as morbid as that sounds. Makes about as much sense as requiring a death certificate to officially bury someone, but someone has to dot the eyes and cross the tees.

I think AA if you look at my posts here and elsewhere on the site since 2002, I have also included the ills of other countries including my own (I don't seem to have a problem with being objective..nothing is ever gained by having an ostrich approach of burying your head in the sand and taking the attitude that criticism cannot be aired unless it is in the form of competitive 'mine is better than yours, mentality which is not my style...if something is wrong, it is wrong unfortunately)...and one of the reasons I am not in a hurry to return to its shores to live as it is now a mini US and our illustrious PM has no problem asking Bush what he should do and kowtowing to his every whim....gutless leader if you ask me. But then Oz has a long history of oppression and discrimination which it manages to keep buried fairly well for many outside who know little of it's history or politics...and a long history of looking to the US for guidance in all areas (though business wise and in other areas, they are beginning to see the value in directing those interests in the direction of Asia, a much closer neighbour). That aside, I don't see in Asia and Europe the huge profits the US generates (and they are also dominated by US policy which affects their economies.....seems it is a worldwide problem for all but the US), or the get up and go to rally forces from other countries to invade other nations. As to the 'm' or 'M' thing...I really don't think that will have an impact on anything of much import except perhaps for the elitist and pedantic.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well, yeah, but I don't know that the theoretical implications of that mattered to an Algerian or a Congolese or a Maori or a Malian. I don't think that Europe has a good track record of apology or guilt, I just see it as consistant that European nations never claimed to be land of the free, helping the people they were bludgeoning. They were more than happy to insist their colonies were peopled with inferior people who needed guidance and reform.

Yes....there is that honesty and transparency again. They don't paint it to be anything it isn't and it is openly discussed and acknowledged by most this side of the pond as opposed to the US attitude of 'don't you dare speak any evil about us because we are really just trying to help others, nothing else'.....that is my point and where I see the deceptiveness of it. It doesn't make the outcome better ot worse, and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but one would hope that by the 21st century, colonistaion and occupation of other nations would be seen for what it really was.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Good point. The history of the entire West is filled with problematic activities. The main difference is that the US has consistently tried to paint itself as *above that kind of thing*. That's what I see as the difference. We're younger, we're a lot younger, therefore more idealistic and less willing to acknowledge our faults.

kittycat made a good point about pendulum swing. You can take a look at the last three presidencies, or US history dating back to 1898, pehaps 1812. We routinely go through mood swings of imperialism and isolationism. We've been lucky enough (due to geographic isolation more than anything else) to catch up from world affairs complacency repeatedly. As the world gets smaller, however, that window to catch up has diminished as well. A Catch-22 exists in this news in an instant, instant messenger, email response required immediately, every one needs a cell phone on in the theatre (whether opera, or Star Wars), latest reality based sitcom/drama world. We spoke of clicking off the safety in another thread here. i mentioned necessary response in a no win situation, but also alluded to "how did you get there in the first place." You've got to walk a fine line in today's world to avoid upsetting all of the extremists groups. Is it worth it, or have you let them set the standard by which you live?

I'd like to see W make the small gesture of attending a military funeral at some point, though or has he managed to pencil that one in at last and I missed it?

i wouldn't presume he has or hasn't. i'll take it at face value he isn't a sociopath, however, and spent a few nights in the dark tea time of the soul pondering the weight of those deaths. i'd prefer he do that than offer up a photo op to be glorified/villified by either end of the political spectrum.

The scary thing that I see happening is that the middle classes and our representatives own families are less involved in this and the last Gulf than they've ever had to be in a war or war effort, even on symbolic levels.

See above about the world in which we currently live. Then take a closer look in places you'd least expect it. Down the street, a few houses from me, the parents of a servicemember placed a Blue Star prominently at the front of their house. i routinely come up behind vehicles ranging from "beaters" (commute only vehicles) to luxury SUVs with yellow ribbons stickers emblazoned with "Support our Troops."

And as a tangent, the little chits (yard apes not more than 5 years old) that just rang my doorbell asking for my daughter to come out and play wished me a Happy Fourth before skipping merrily back down the driveway. That makes most of the rest of this discussion moot. Thank you, little ones, for reminding me this isn't just another day to mow the lawn. i'll fire a few skyrockets tonight rather than waiting for Bastille Day.

 

[snowy ciara]

And as a tangent, the little chits (yard apes not more than 5 years old) that just rang my doorbell asking for my daughter to come out and play wished me a Happy Fourth before skipping merrily back down the driveway. That makes most of the rest of this discussion moot. Thank you, little ones, for reminding me this isn't just another day to mow the lawn. i'll fire a few skyrockets tonight rather than waiting for Bastille Day.

Happy 4th Everybody...

I don't have lots to say about the earlier discussion, as I think it pointless to paint the US in harsh tones of black and white. No-one is great all of the time and no one is evil incarnate all of the time. If you look at recent press and headlines you'd think the country was the second with none of the first. But as a guest in your country, I've seen some things worth menotioning.

Yes, we got unfairly harrassed at that border when we came down, and yes, the police in my neighborhood tend to be fuckwits of epic proportions.

But, D and mariposa's house was broken into when we were working in Metropolis a week ago, and the neighbors stepped in to run off the the peeps before anything major was stolen. They then notified the property management company who changed the locks, kicked up a big enough fuss to start the police report process, and gave the new keys to her sister. There was an Amber alert in the neighborhood of a store we were working in Metropolis and the store management announced it over the store intercom, along with a description of the child and her abductor. One of the employees spotted the suspect vehicle while on a lunch break down the street and tailed the truck until the police (FINALLY) showed up to take over. We were working in the near vicinity of one of the huge forest fires burning in the southwest and one of it the people who had been evacuated, who didn't know if they were even gonna have a home to go home to when this was over or even a job since their business was also in danger, was in the grocery store buying watermelon, gatorade and bottled water for the firefighters. A child in our neighborhood needs a bone marrow transplant, and a match has not been found yet. A few hundred people showed up to get typed. Even if this child dies, he may have save someone else's life by publicizing the problem.

It is the people, not the government that makes a country. I have seen this sort of community involvement in most places that I have been to. It is especially strong in my hometown in Canada. Even though I sort of really hate the Shrub sometimes, (most of the time, really) I don't pretend to claim that my home country is any better. There are things going on in this world that make me cringe, make me angry, make me cry. There are lots of governments that need some serious overhauling, and lots of situations they've created that seriously need to be remedied now. But I look at the people in my community and I can't say they're all bad. And it's because I know these people, and kids like AA mentioned above, that I have some sort of hope that we'll get this un-fucked-up somehow.

So on behalf of my friends and neighbors, happy 4th everyone.