13 ways of Thinking about Poetry

[butters]

i absolutely love this: no.5

The purpose of lineation in verse is to establish a rhythm of expectation that heightens the listener’s attention and apprehension. The purpose of poetic technique, especially meter, is to enchant the listener—to create a gentle hypnotic state that lowers the listener’s resistance and heightens attention. Free verse lacks the steady physical beat of metrical poetry, but it seeks the same neural effect by different means. Lineation is the central organizing principle of free verse.

here's the link to read all 13 points, by Dana Gioia
https://danagioia.com/essays/writing-and-reading/thirteen-ways-of-thinking-about-the-poetic-line/

 

[butters]

One of the more interesting articles I’ve read on the writing process, I think I’m going to have to re-think the whole writing schtick because I have never put that much effort into writing as to be ensuring every end line works and is impactful, let alone being able to write in precise technical metre, makes you realise how much other people put into their writing.

Thanks for the article Butters

hiya, tods

i still tend to write first and then pay attention after the fact, adjusting line-breaks, cutting words/lines, swapping some phrase for something else. if i spent all that thought on the first stage i believe it would get in the way of me getting my idea down to begin with, and following where that thought or word leads me.

 

[Angeline]

hiya, tods

i still tend to write first and then pay attention after the fact, adjusting line-breaks, cutting words/lines, swapping some phrase for something else. if i spent all that thought on the first stage i believe it would get in the way of me getting my idea down to begin with, and following where that thought or word leads me.

I just wrote a long, considered response to you which my phone promptly ate, grrrr. But I was agreeing with your method. The first draft is just to get my basic vision/idea in writing. The work to improve it starts afterward. To that extent there is never really "free verse" to my thinking.

When I'm writing a specific form there's more simultaneous first draft and editing happening, but the first write is still a starting point imo. I hope Tzara and others who always (I think) write with a specific meter in mind will share how he/they go about it.

Thanks for sharing the article. It's excellent!

 

[champagne1982]

The first draft is just to get my basic vision/idea in writing. The work to improve it starts afterward. To that extent there is never really "free verse" to my thinking.

Thanks for sharing the article. It's excellent!

I agree with you Angie, this is why I always argue that free verse is a formula onto itself.

That's what the abbreviation is for n'est-ce pas? Formula? as opposed to Format or is it all semantics? LOL. If it were only about format then why are meter and a volta issues in a Sonnet? Why are 6 lines and 6 strophes along with an envoi important in a Sestina? It's interesting.

I love to play with the sense of why a poem is structured the way it is and see if I can write a perfect poem to "formula", which I can't btw, since my sense of rhythm is terrible. Thank goodness there's birth control, if I'd had to count on the rhythm method to time pregnancies, I'd have had 10 kids by 35 lol

 

[Angeline]

I agree with you Angie, this is why I always argue that free verse is a formula onto itself.

That's what the abbreviation is for n'est-ce pas? Formula? as opposed to Format or is it all semantics? LOL. If it were only about format then why are meter and a volta issues in a Sonnet? Why are 6 lines and 6 strophes along with an envoi important in a Sestina? It's interesting.

I love to play with the sense of why a poem is structured the way it is and see if I can write a perfect poem to "formula", which I can't btw, since my sense of rhythm is terrible. Thank goodness there's birth control, if I'd had to count on the rhythm method to time pregnancies, I'd have had 10 kids by 35 lol

Lol. Thirty years on I'm still recovering from two kids. Ten? Yikes!

I don't know why metered verse is so difficult for me. I can usually hear iambs in a line, especially 8-10 syllable lines, probably because I've read them so often. And if I look at a different stress pattern I can hear the few syllables in my head. I can even grasp how one pattern versus another can affect tone as much as rhythm...and that opens a whole world of possibilities. But when I try to practice it I feel like I'm overthinking it and sucking the creativity out of the whole shebang.

I feel like this is a failing in me. I should be able to accomplish this. But Tzara has said in the past that we write the way we write and it's ok. Sorry T-Zed if I've garbled your message.

But yes editing is where it's at! I have poems I thought were as good as they could get when I wrote them years ago. But when I look at them now, having learned and grown over time, I invariably see changes that would make them better.

 

[butters]

Lol. Thirty years on I'm still recovering from two kids. Ten? Yikes!

I don't know why metered verse is so difficult for me. I can usually hear iambs in a line, especially 8-10 syllable lines, probably because I've read them so often. And if I look at a different stress pattern I can hear the few syllables in my head. I can even grasp how one pattern versus another can affect tone as much as rhythm...and that opens a whole world of possibilities. But when I try to practice it I feel like I'm overthinking it and sucking the creativity out of the whole shebang.

I feel like this is a failing in me. I should be able to accomplish this. But Tzara has said in the past that we write the way we write and it's ok. Sorry T-Zed if I've garbled your message.

But yes editing is where it's at! I have poems I thought were as good as they could get when I wrote them years ago. But when I look at them now, having learned and grown over time, I invariably see changes that would make them better.

i was brought up on a whole lot of iambic poetry, from shakespeare to the romantics, so it's almost virtual osmosis to absorb it... but it's also important to remember the naturally iambic pattern, specifically pentameter and tetrameter, is a basis of spoken british english. All too often, H 'hears' a line quite differently to me, since the speech patterns down here have stresses in different places of a word, which kind of throws him off entirely when reading british english iambic poetry.

a failing? pfft. if it's a failing, you're doing exceptionally well with it, lol

i think it entirely depends just where we are at the time on our own poetry pathway, and that ties in completely to todski's own post above re 'falling in love' with the version and not being in that place to even want to edit
I have that most times i write something (not all the time, true, because i'm not blind, lol). Time and time again we write the 'best' it can be at the moment in the present, and we perceive it as such because of our own limitations. It's not till time passes–which allows for a more constructive view of our own writing–and the growth in skills we acquire over the years takes place that we achieve a more objective point of view. I suppose exactly the same goes for any crits we write on the works of other people

the thing i really really like about the opening quote had to do with the hypnotic rhythms: a lot of poetry that moves me the most seems to have that quality, whether they're iambic or not...the natural play of sounds and rhythm lull the brain into that more open, accepting state which then lends itself to allowing the reader to become more a part of the poem-experience! I'm sure there have been better (content-wise) poems I've not enjoyed so much as a less spectacular one written with that hypnotic kind of effect.
I've also found (occasionally!) i'm sort of self-hypnotising as i write and that, in turn, prompts where the poem leads rather than any consciously determined direction. I think you've said something similar, Angie, about your own writing, and i know i've seen plenty of people who say they don't know where the poems come from, they just seem to arrive on the page. It's my belief (at this place in time and before i change my mind, lol) that when people write this way they've managed to still the conscious mind to a degree, freeing up blocks to the subconscious and so create a kind of creativity loop! It's not a matter of poems magically falling onto the page from some obscure muse, but an opening of the channels of our own creativity, accessing a different level of our brain's functioning, in the same way some creativists use drugs or alcohol, or even meditation! now if it could only happen more often in my own writing


in years to come, i might come back to this and say 'i was soooooo full of shit', but, yanno, right now this is where my mind's at

 

[Angeline]

i absolutely love this: no.5

here's the link to read all 13 points, by Dana Gioia
https://danagioia.com/essays/writing-and-reading/thirteen-ways-of-thinking-about-the-poetic-line/

I feel like this thread needs a link to Thirteen Ways Of Looking At A Blackbird , the poem that inspired the title of Dana Gioia's article. It's an inspiring poem. We did a challenge here a few years ago where we riffed on the poem, writing poems that listed different ways of seeing the same thing. Maybe we should try It again.

 

[46n2]

i absolutely love this: no.5

The purpose of poetic technique, especially meter, is to enchant the listener—to create a gentle hypnotic state that lowers the listener’s resistance and heightens attention. Free verse lacks the steady physical beat of metrical poetry...

I do like the way that was defined there. It's certainly not "wrong".

However, I would challenge that not all poetry must match a 'known' meter along the way. No more than any particular musical offering must. You skip a beat intentionally. You gain the trust of a certain continuance - and then you curb it on purpose, unexpectedly; create some hemorrhaging, perhaps.

That's where impact comes from (albeit a wreckage of sorts).

-Since we're here recognizing beats and meters:
I remember when I went to "guitar school" after teaching myself for several years. I'd lost all my instinctual technique for 2yrs that followed. I lost my edge. It had all become Math. What had formerly been a fretboard of endless possibilities had then become repetitive boxes and limits. I'd thought I made a gigantic mistake in going to school on it.

However, once the "math" was known long enough that I no longer needed to consciously consider things? I would then grab greater mastery of the tool. I could forget about it all and just GO there. Prior to that, I might "kiss the sky". While at other times I'm a guy with a guitar tumbling down a flight of stairs; had very little control of it. Once I'd formally LEARNED the rules. I could break them far more competently. And that would be the difference between Yourself and Anyone else.

It's not about someone else's rules.
Make them your own.

And I hope that’s not read as argumentative. I mean it truly and respectfully.


-Not all that much different from Sex, actually:

You wanna. FuCK.
Or just continue on with a well-known rhythm?

; )

 

[46n2]

Hey, ya know what?

A fine example of what I’m talking about might be that brilliant black gurl dressed in epic yellow on Inauguration Day. That’s what I mean by Inventive right alongside the kind of “gentle hypnotic state” and “disarming resistance” spoken about in your link.

That shit was JAZZ!!

 

[46n2]

hiya, tods

i still tend to write first and then pay attention after the fact, adjusting line-breaks, cutting words/lines, swapping some phrase for something else. if i spent all that thought on the first stage i believe it would get in the way of me getting my idea down to begin with, and following where that thought or word leads me.

Every creator has their own pulse (and process).

Wanna hear another story of mine? Sure ya do (I'll be brief).

Had a girlfriend liked to create cut-and-paste collages. She had a ton of them done before I met her. Then I got to watch the process, many months after we'd begun to be a pair. She just carved up all these magazines and slapped it together in less than an hour (small poster in size, larger than a magazine; would fit on a freezer door, if it were sideways).

Once it was done she held it up and I was like, "Wholly shit, that's magnificent. How did it, how did you, did you know where you were going with all that?"

She then pointed out dozens of details that were all interconnected on what she'd brought to life. At which point I'm just stupified. Not fucking possible. Except I'm looking at the truth of what she's saying.

Had to ask her, "When do you know where you're going with it?"

And she said, "After."

She doesn't know how it all so obviously connects until AFTER it's finished?!

I'm not the envious sort but... I definitely knew that feeling then.

To be able to put it out into the world like that and THEN know?

Might be the proper approach of any "God" I would ever entertain as significant in the manner It ought to be, eh. Indeed.

 

[46n2]

Incidentally. In keeping with the tail end of that prior post:

Ladies? Thanks for giving birth.

Humanity appreciates that about you, exponentially.

And I'm not sucking up. The thought just occurred to me is all ; )

 

[butters]

hey, 46 I think you'll find most of us broadly agree with all of your points

• your own creative spark is unique to yourself
• learn the rules in order to break them more effectively
• the creative process generally comes first–understanding the journey comes after
• yeah, none of you fuckers would be here if not for our wombs

 

[Veevee27]

Happy

I just joined literotica and started browsing the site a little. I hadn't expect content like in this thread, but i'm loving it.
Thanks for being out there, erotica loving poetic people with a delicious sense of humour and a nice level of intelligence
You are a breath of fresh air on my internet

 

[Lyricalli]

I just joined literotica and started browsing the site a little. I hadn't expect content like in this thread, but i'm loving it.
Thanks for being out there, erotica loving poetic people with a delicious sense of humour and a nice level of intelligence
You are a breath of fresh air on my internet

Welcome to the PoBo, Veevee. Hope you enjoy your stay.

 

[Mrtenant]

I just joined literotica and started browsing the site a little. I hadn't expect content like in this thread, but i'm loving it.
Thanks for being out there, erotica loving poetic people with a delicious sense of humour and a nice level of intelligence
You are a breath of fresh air on my internet

Welcome

 

[46n2]

hey, 46 I think you'll find most of us broadly agree with all of your points

• your own creative spark is unique to yourself
• learn the rules in order to break them more effectively
• the creative process generally comes first–understanding the journey comes after
• yeah, none of you fuckers would be here if not for our wombs

Alright then. Well I'll just use this opportunity to repeat, hey:

Thanks for your womb ; )


Also. I could maybe use an editor of your skill. Or I could have. When I was writing. Which I don't no more. Cuz. Yeah.

I gained a smile from your response. Thanks for that.