1200 page Health Care Bill (non political)

[Liar]

So, there's a Health Care Reform thread brewing again here on the ol' AH. And as I scrolled though it, I was struck by the "OMG it's 1200 pages! Nobody can read that!" argument that popped up here and there. I've seen the same argument in the media, but I haven't reflected much on it.

So I thought "that seems kinda long", and went to check out the actual bill.

And yeah, it is 1200 pages. Almost. Closer to 1100, but hey.

But the thing is, I had no idea what a legislative page looks like. Now I know. It has the biggest font, the most line space and the widest margins I've ever seen.

I figured I'd see how long the text actually is, in author terms. Just for fun. Because I was bored. So I copied the text fromthe PDF, pasted it into Word, and hit Word Count.

Wanna knoqw how long this "how are we going to vote on a bill that is so big nobody can read it all" bill actually is?

Just about 217.000 words.

According to Wikipedia, that's roughly the same length as Moby Dick. And half the length of Gone With The Wind.

"Nobody can read" an average sized book? Really? Isn't the idea to have at least educated people (and their educated staffers who should be able to parse stuff like that and make cliffnotes) working in the national legislative body?

It's probably long, for a bill. Detailed and complicated compared to most other bills, and when the devil is in the details, the more detals the more devil.

But "too long to read"? Pfah. Weak. I crammed more legal text and academic mumbo jumbo through my head on a weekly basis in college.

 

[john-the-author]

So, there's a Health Care Reform thread brewing again here on the ol' AH. And as I scrolled though it, I was struck by the "OMG it's 1200 pages! Nobody can read that!" argument that popped up here and there. I've seen the same argument in the media, but I haven't reflected much on it.

So I thought "that seems kinda long", and went to check out the actual bill.

And yeah, it is 1200 pages. Almost. Closer to 1100, but hey.

But the thing is, I had no idea what a legislative page looks like. Now I know. It has the biggest font, the most line space and the widest margins I've ever seen.

I figured I'd see how long the text actually is, in author terms. Just for fun. Because I was bored. So I copied the text fromthe PDF, pasted it into Word, and hit Word Count.

Wanna knoqw how long this "how are we going to vote on a bill that is so big nobody can read it all" bill actually is?

Just about 217.000 words.

According to Wikipedia, that's roughly the same length as Moby Dick. And half the length of Gone With The Wind.

"Nobody can read" an average sized book? Really? Isn't the idea to have at least educated people (and their educated staffers who should be able to parse stuff like that and make cliffnotes) working in the national legislative body?

It's probably long, for a bill. Detailed and complicated compared to most other bills, and when the devil is in the details, the more detals the more devil.

But "too long to read"? Pfah. Weak. I crammed more legal text and academic mumbo jumbo through my head on a weekly basis in college.

Good point, Liar. Thanks.

It is long for a bill, but it's hardly the longest. And I have a feeling that the reason for the font and the layout is so that legislators have room to mark it up for their staffs, for questions, and notes to themselves. Were I a legislator, I would definitely want things laid out that way.

Yeah, it's a ton of reading. It's why legislators have a lot of people on staff, to give 'em digests.

 

[Xelebes]

Edit - redundant.

 

[trysail]

... And yeah, it is 1200 pages. Almost. Closer to 1100, but hey.

...Just about 217.000 words.

According to Wikipedia, that's roughly the same length as Moby Dick. And half the length of Gone With The Wind.

"Nobody can read" an average sized book? Really? Isn't the idea to have at least educated people (and their educated staffers who should be able to parse stuff like that and make cliffnotes) working in the national legislative body?

It's probably long, for a bill. Detailed and complicated compared to most other bills, and when the devil is in the details, the more deta{i}ls the more devil.

But "too long to read"? Pfah. Weak. I crammed more legal text and academic mumbo jumbo through my head on a weekly basis in college.

Liar,

You've performed a valuable service. Thank you.

I do believe, however, that you fail to appreciate how the legislative process works. You are, of course, absolutely correct that anyone can read Moby Dick— GIVEN ENOUGH TIME— and there lies the rub.

In reality, all legislating and negotiating is actually an ENDURANCE CONTEST. If you've ever been involved in commercial contracts, you will understand that by the SIXTEENTH version virtually every participant is so sick of reading the damn thing that it is possible to insert all kinds of deviltry into the document. Throw in deadlines, brinksmanship, skullduggery, political chicanery and the rest of the Machiavellian arsenal and you've got a recipe for a potential disaster.

Hell, even I've read Moby Dick ( and— unlike that rite of passage suffered by so many wretched students— I actually enjoyed the damn thing, in part because of my lifelong familiarity with whaling and nautical matters ). There wasn't, however, any time pressure on me. I read it at my leisure.

I am close enough to one of the 535 people who are going to have to read this thing to have intimate knowledge of how wearing and exhausting the process can be. I recall one Christmas Eve where a three month budget impasse required the legislature to remain in session until 1900 hours on December 24th. This person ( along with the other 534 people ) was not able to be with their family on Christmas Eve! That is only one small example of the demands of the position among the thousands I have witnessed over the years. It is an occupation that requires one to live a fishbowl existence. One is essentially "on call" 24/7, 365 days a year. It is notorious for destroying families. This particular person could be making five times the amount of money doing something else. By my calculation, their pay rate is approximately $0.05 per hour.

As one who strongly believes that "the best government is the least possible government." I am very quick to point out the the Founding Fathers had every intention of making it as difficult as possible for anyone to do anything. They had, after all, just finished throwing out one King/dictator/totalitarian and the very last thing they wanted was another.

By the way, if anyone ever offers you the job held by one of those 535 individuals, I strongly advise that you decline the offer. I promise you, you don't want the job.


_________________________________



While the purported authorship of Alexander Tytler has been disproven, the accuracy of the statement inaccurately attributed to him remains to be seen:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

Whether the eventual bankruptcy of the United States will lead to dictatorship, I do not pretend to know. Given its current trajectory, we're going to find out.

 

[Liar]

By the way, if anyone ever offers you the job held by one of those 535 individuals, I strongly advise that you decline the offer. I promise you, you don't want the job.

You think I'd want it? Hell naw. Taking responsibility for things that are not me is not how I roll. I couldn't even have employees.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

More to the point, it doesnt matter whats in the bill it will be construed however the leadership wants. Madison made this point long ago. IT MEANS WHAT THE RATIFIERS SAY IT MEANS. The Radical Republicans locked the Capitol's doors and passed the 14th Amendment when it was certain to fail.

 

[trysail]

... and went to check out the actual bill...

The other thing that ought to be considered is this: given the fact that when government programs are enacted they have an absolutely horrible, self-fulfilling tendency to become immortal. One might reasonably ask that legislators take as much time as needed ( AND MORE! ) prior to passing fundamentally massive and sweeping legislation.

God knows, I sure do wish somebody'd thought through Social Security, Medicare and Fannie/Freddie a lot more carefully before bringing them into existence. No other entity could possibly have organized what is essentially a savings/annuity scheme as a "pay as you go" proposition than the U.S. Congress.

This thing has the potential to be with us for a long, long time. What, after all, is the big hurry?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

...

This thing has the potential to be with us for a long, long time. What, after all, is the big hurry?

I could tell you why but this is supposed to be a non-political thread and besides you already no why.

A while back I posted a link to a PDF of what the bill would look like as a flowchart of goods and service and responsibilities. It was a real representation of the bill, yet made surreal by the use of color and size.

So it would seem that, other than me and liar, someone had read the bill or one of the versions of the bill. And the complexity of the bill is what has the legislators balking at reading the damn thing. I don't even think Obama has read the bill(s) as he keeps contridicting things that are in there. (I don't want to call him a liar in this thread as it's supposed to be non-political).

Yet I, a lay person, although well versed in reading legal/political mumbo-jumbo, read and understood the bill.

 

[Liar]

The other thing that ought to be considered is this: given the fact that when government programs are enacted they have an absolutely horrible, self-fulfilling tendency to become immortal. One might reasonably ask that legislators take as much time as needed ( AND MORE! ) prior to passing fundamentally massive and sweeping legislation.

God knows, I sure do wish somebody'd thought through Social Security, Medicare and Fannie/Freddie a lot more carefully before bringing them into existence. No other entity could possibly have organized what is essentially a savings/annuity scheme as a "pay as you go" proposition than the U.S. Congress.

This thing has the potential to be with us for a long, long time. What, after all, is the big hurry?

This is the "nobody can read it" is a silly statement thread. It's about literacy, not politics.

What does it say when a United States Senator bellows out that he can't parse a novel length piece of text. Something that I could do in a weekend, if I set my mind to it. It looks bad, is all I'm saying.

Once again, the health care politics thread is over here. Shoo.

 

[jomar]

I had the dubious privilege of being the legislative chair for a state organization that was lobbying for a change in the law for what was essentially a guild issue. It was an exceptionally ugly process and I saw firsthand that the old adage about seeing laws and sausages being made is true.

ETA: Oops re the literacy thing.

 

[TE999]

Possibly the reason that the Health Care bill(s) is (are) presented in this 'OMG it's so complex ' fashion is a red herring to assure most folks won't even try to read it. Conceivably, all sorts of stingers could be added in the final work-up and once it's adopted it's too late.

*Adjusts tinfoil hat and goes away whistling*

 

[DesertPirate]

You think I'd want it? Hell naw. Taking responsibility for things that are not me is not how I roll. I couldn't even have employees.

The real problem is the language that only shysters can understand. Honest people write in plain English.

 

[TE999]

The real problem is the language that only shysters can understand. Honest people write in plain English.

Therin lies the difficulty of crafting a 'one size fits all' federal program. It'll pinch some, bag on others and barely cover even more. That's why clothes come in different sizes.

 

[DesertPirate]

Therin lies the difficulty of crafting a 'one size fits all' federal program. It'll pinch some, bag on others and barely cover even more. That's why clothes come in different sizes.

Of course the real problem is all the extranious crap added to it. That is why they put the "crisis" tag on and try to rush it through before any can read it. Look how well that hurry up crap worked on "Spendulous"!

 

[TE999]

Of course the real problem is all the extranious crap added to it. That is why they put the "crisis" tag on and try to rush it through before any can read it. Look how well that hurry up crap worked on "Spendulous"!

I really think that if health care had been pushed first while the rosy post-election afterglow lingered, it'd be a done deal by now. As it is, people are seeing what little is being accomplished vis a vis the titanic expenditure of money we don't have yet and they're getting worried.

 

[DesertPirate]

I really think that if health care had been pushed first while the rosy post-election afterglow lingered, it'd be a done deal by now. As it is, people are seeing what little is being accomplished vis a vis the titanic expenditure of money we don't have yet and they're getting worried.

Why do you think Obama pushed so hard? He had to get it done before the approval rating drops below 50% then he becomes weak like Clinton was and his agenda flops. Plus all the uproar at the town hall meetings should trnslate to interesting numbers for those up for re-election next year. They will drop health care in heartbeat if it endangers their chance of re-election.
We know what the Congresscritters think is most important right?

 

[TE999]

Why do you think Obama pushed so hard? He had to get it done before the approval rating drops below 50% then he becomes weak like Clinton was and his agenda flops. Plus all the uproar at the town hall meetings should trnslate to interesting numbers for those up for re-election next year. They will drop health care in heartbeat if it endangers their chance of re-election.
We know what the Congresscritters think is most important right?

Why, the welfare of their constituents, right?

(I can't say that with a straight face )

 

[Boxlicker101]

The other thing that ought to be considered is this: given the fact that when government programs are enacted they have an absolutely horrible, self-fulfilling tendency to become immortal. One might reasonably ask that legislators take as much time as needed ( AND MORE! ) prior to passing fundamentally massive and sweeping legislation.

God knows, I sure do wish somebody'd thought through Social Security, Medicare and Fannie/Freddie a lot more carefully before bringing them into existence. No other entity could possibly have organized what is essentially a savings/annuity scheme as a "pay as you go" proposition than the U.S. Congress.

This thing has the potential to be with us for a long, long time. What, after all, is the big hurry?

A guy named Ponzi came up with a similar scheme long before FDR or Congress did.

 

[DeeZire]

Box brings up an interesting point. What would America be like today without Social Security and Medicare? Does anyone really want to go there?

Looking back at recent history, conservatives have always railed against advancements in the well-being of society as a whole Is it any wonder the segregationists of yesterday are fighting healthcare reform today? It's all part of the "I-got-mine-so-screw-you" mentality that started with the Neanderthals and continues to plague mankind to this day.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Box brings up an interesting point. What would America be like today without Social Security and Medicare? Does anyone really want to go there?

Looking back at recent history, conservatives have always railed against advancements in the well-being of society as a whole Is it any wonder the segregationists of yesterday are fighting healthcare reform today? It's all part of the "I-got-mine-so-screw-you" mentality that started with the Neanderthals and continues to plague mankind to this day.

I didn't bring it up. In fact, I compared SS to a Ponzi scheme. It is very similar, you know. You begin paying in at an early age, and continue for a long time, and can not, except in very limited circumstances, draw any out. In a Ponzi scheme, you can draw your money out and make a nice profit. The money you take is what you started with and what other people have put in. Most don't cash out because they think it will continue to build, until it collapses.

Some people benefit from SS, and my wife and I are apparently two such lucky souls. My first and second wives and the second wife's son were not. They paid in for years but never got a penny in benefits because they died young. Social Secutiry hasn't collapsed yet, but I have heard pessimistic predictions.

Meidcare isn't all that great either. It's basically medical insurance, but with a big deductible and a lot of holes. We have an excellent companion plan, the one my wife had while she was working, so we're doing okay there too.

 

[Liar]

I didn't bring it up. In fact, I compared SS to a Ponzi scheme. It is very similar, you know. You begin paying in at an early age, and continue for a long time, and can not, except in very limited circumstances, draw any out.

You mean like insurance? (And I don't mean health insurance specifically.) You pay premium after premium after premium, but can only in very limited circumstances, get money back.

In fact, in both the case of Social Security and, let's say a car insurance, you don't WANT to be in a position where you get your money back. You'd rather have a non wrecked automobile and a non wrecked life.

 

[trysail]

...Is it any wonder the segregationists of yesterday are fighting healthcare reform today?...

That's so completely bogus that it isn't even worth a reply. It is such an absolutely bent statement that it defies imagination.

What kind of mind comes up with stuff like this?

 

[Liar]

The real problem is the language that only shysters can understand. Honest people write in plain English.

Plain English is ambiguous. Phrases and passages are open for subjective intepretation.

That's why there's Lawyer Speek. It's much more precise. Of course, that means that you must know Lawyer Speek to read it, which means a corrupt lawyer can lie to you about what it says.

That's why it's good to know stuff like that. Without an educated, informed citizenry, democracy is bumpkus.

 

[Saucy_Sage]

So, there's a Health Care Reform thread brewing again here on the ol' AH. And as I scrolled though it, I was struck by the "OMG it's 1200 pages! Nobody can read that!" argument that popped up here and there. I've seen the same argument in the media, but I haven't reflected much on it.

So I thought "that seems kinda long", and went to check out the actual bill.

And yeah, it is 1200 pages. Almost. Closer to 1100, but hey.

But the thing is, I had no idea what a legislative page looks like. Now I know. It has the biggest font, the most line space and the widest margins I've ever seen.

I figured I'd see how long the text actually is, in author terms. Just for fun. Because I was bored. So I copied the text fromthe PDF, pasted it into Word, and hit Word Count.

Wanna knoqw how long this "how are we going to vote on a bill that is so big nobody can read it all" bill actually is?

Just about 217.000 words.

According to Wikipedia, that's roughly the same length as Moby Dick. And half the length of Gone With The Wind.

"Nobody can read" an average sized book? Really? Isn't the idea to have at least educated people (and their educated staffers who should be able to parse stuff like that and make cliffnotes) working in the national legislative body?

It's probably long, for a bill. Detailed and complicated compared to most other bills, and when the devil is in the details, the more detals the more devil.

But "too long to read"? Pfah. Weak. I crammed more legal text and academic mumbo jumbo through my head on a weekly basis in college.

Which is how many Lit pages? Try posting it in Loving Wives. I'm not sure anyone reads those stories all the way through anyway before they start posting comments.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The real problem is The People are morons and ill-informed enough to know when theyre being duped. I mean, my state and local government was screwed out of billions by Wall Street, and we had 'experts' investing our pension funds and excess tax revenues. The sharks are eating us one bite at a time, and we keep uncovering our asses for more.

You make money by creating real wealth. Rockefeller organized the petroleum industry, Carnegie built steel mills, DuPont built chemical plants, GM-Ford built cars. Loansharking blacks and crackers and Mexicans isnt creating wealth. Hustling pension funds isnt creating wealth. Creating more government isnt creating wealth.

You have your dopey head up your ass and in 5 years the present regime of crooks and your money will be long gone. But youll be game for another round of WANNA BE A PAUPER!