02 April 2001: A Present for Drew

[Weird Harold]

This week's story is from the Erotic Couplings Category.

A Present For Drew
by Eileen82

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=5099

 

[KillerMuffin]

It makes one wonder two things, if the group can move past the "Yay! I'm an editor let me critique the story!" into the "have a discussion about the story and the mechanics thing."

1) Ellipis Marks (...) and their usage in erotic stories. This one is chock full of ellipis. Personally, I don't care for ellipis used improperly. That is, to denote pauses or just arbitrarily tossed in to cover proper punctuation. Did the ellipis make the writing any better? When you see ellipis, how do you "read" them? How do you see them?

2) Second person. Why do I hate it so much? Why does everyone but doctor_insanus hate it so much? Why do authors constantly use it in erotica?

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by KillerMuffin
It makes one wonder two things, if the group can move past the "Yay! I'm an editor let me critique the story!" into the "have a discussion about the story and the mechanics thing."

I would like to see more discussion and less "here's my opinion and I'm gone" type of posts.


1) Ellipis Marks (...) and their usage in erotic stories. This one is chock full of ellipis. Personally, I don't care for ellipis used improperly.

I did notice this is Eileen's only story to date. That would lead me to believe that it is a first effort, and overuse and incorrect use of ellipsis is a very common error for beginners; more so in erotic stories because of the disjointed nature of orgasmic vocalizations and the difficulty in properly punctuating that which is nearly impossible to punctuate at all.


2) Second person. Why do I hate it so much? Why does everyone but doctor_insanus hate it so much? Why do authors constantly use it in erotica?

Many first efforts, and a few later efforts are written with a particular person in mind. ("Drew" in the case of this story.) They are fantasies that are as much instructions for a particular individual on how to fulfil the fantasy as they are stories for general consumption.

I've also noticed that many stories written by subs about/for their masters tend to use second person.

 

[Mickie]

Coversational critique!

I agree whole-heartedly with the discussion aspect of this! It would be nice to get the author into the discussion as well, if it's possible.

1) Ellipis Marks (...) and their usage in erotic stories. This one is chock full of ellipis. Personally, I don't care for ellipis used improperly.

I don't think anyone agrees with the improper use of any kind of punctuation. The proper usage for an ellipsis is to trail off an incomplete sentence. There are other ways to put pauses into a sentence that work better. But, as it's been said, there are plenty of new writers out there who write as they think instead of looking up information about correct puctuation.

2) Second person. Why do I hate it so much? Why does everyone but doctor_insanus hate it so much? Why do authors constantly use it in erotica?

I think the writers are trying to get the reader to identify with the main character. If it's used correctly, it can be a haunting way to tell a story. New writers should avoid it, though, because it's incredibly difficult to use correctly. All those tense errors. It makes a story difficult to read when the tense gets mixed up.

Adding in my own observation here -- did anyone find the opening paragraph extraneous? Did the writer need to define the scene in that manner, or could it have been cut? I have this thing about opening lines and paragraphs. Grab the reader, then give them the details. Too many stories start with this kind of thing, sometimes for pages (which makes me click the back button faster than you can say boo).

Mickie

 

[DarlingBri]

OT: Discussion Vs. Criticism

I was going to email WH about this re. last week's story, but I'll just post it here since someone else has raised the issue. I think it would be very helpful if WH, as "story discussion leader," came back every few posts and commented. It would feel less like posting in a vacuum and he could move the conversation on.

Perhaps people who post could also subscribe to the thread with email notification, as a reminder to come back and participate.

OT: And now back to our regularly scheduled programme

1. Ellipse marks are used incorrectly because authors don't know better. (I think that's why most anything is used incorrectly.) They are used here to mark pauses, not missing words, in a way that makes sense if you think that's what they do.

2. 2nd person. It's just preference, I guess. It's a little exclusive if you can't identify with the narrator.

3. OK, my pet peeve is exclamation marks. I especially hate it when people use more than one!!!

In addition, the story is rife with spelling errors, capitalisation errors and repetition:

I make you pull out before you cum, pulling off your condom so that I can swallow your cum...

There are lots of these examples, but it's not hard to find synonyms for climaxing. <--- There's one.

The idea and events, while pretty cool, is not really plausible as presented. I don't know if it really matters, but by and large a woman is not going to mistake a man for a dildo, interchangeable thought they may be.

Presumably, it takes some time for the temp to twice climax, but this is covered in a single sentence, which bothers me. There are some other timeline issues here as well, but I think that's illustrative.

Overall, I think it has the right ingredients, but would have benefited to submission to an editor before passing it over to Laurel. The author clearly has the imagination for this, and just needs help with some basic mechanical skills.

 

[Weird Harold]

I think it would be very helpful if WH, as "story discussion leader," came back every few posts and commented. It would feel less like posting in a vacuum and he could move the conversation on.

I just generate the random number that picks the story for discussion, christo is supposed to be the "discussion leader" but he has been under the weather recently.

I do read all of the posts in this conference, but don't comment often because I don't want to dominate the discussions.

back on topic:

Spelling errors are a problem for many writers, myself included. A spell check helps a lot, but when the spelling isn't close enough to correct for an intelligent suggestion it becomes a hassle to use one. This should be taken as a clue that the author needs to learn to at least misspell consistently.

Word 97 has a very good grammar check as far as such programs go. It helps me immensely to identify where my wording and punctuation isn't clear. A grammar fault from Word doesn't necessarily mean that the grammar is wrong, but a clean bill of health from Word does mean the grammar and punctuation are pretty close to correct.

Modern Word processers have a lot of tools available to assist the author and it is wise to use them.

 

[DarlingBri]

I just generate the random number that picks the story for discussion, christo is supposed to be the "discussion leader" but he has been under the weather recently.

I do read all of the posts in this conference, but don't comment often because I don't want to dominate the discussions.

Well, personally, I would be happy to have your services in the interim.

 

[nitengale]

It's hard to "discuss" things here, when there are not many folks posting. It's also difficult to feel involved in any "discussion" when you post and there is no follow up, agreement, disagreement to what you have posted.

It can also be uncomfortable to post one's reaction to the story when one is not proficient in writing. A “newbie” of sorts to the literary world and the discussions of written works by others. One can feel like their post is as useless as tits on a bull. What the hell do I really know about writing, and what difference could I possibly make in adding my review or reaction to the story?

I am guilty of posting and running. However, I will keep coming, and I will keep reading the stories, and I will keep reviewing everyone's comments to the story as a part of my own learning experince. So while my feeble attempts in posting my opinion may seem just that to some, I am trying. I want to learn. I want to become a good writer.

This is probably NOT the right forum to post this, but here it is, and here I am.

 

[nitengale]

My thoughts...

If I clicked on this story for a random read, I would stop after the first paragraph. It is too wordy, and it does not entice me to want to finish the story. Kind of a first impression thing.

I have over used the Ellipsis Marks myself in my own stories and learned from my mistakes, so that stood out for me as well. A common mistake for new writers? There is also some tense switching which sticks out in places. Maybe another common problem new writers have?

I also have trouble as a reader getting past poor descriptions of body parts. In Eileen’s story, it is the
”juiciest breasts” description. I found myself seeing two breasts on a grill. I like body parts to be real, and not something I have to think about twice or stumble over as I read. I also think there is some difference between a dildo and the real thing. Although I have had some....oh wait, that’s another forum. <grin>

Overall, the piece seems a bit wordy with many grammatical errors. I think Eileen might have something if she cleans up those mistakes. =)

 

[Mickie]

Nitengale

*concerned* There is not an opinion that doesn't matter on this board! That includes you. I don't know where you got the idea that you couldn't write, or that your writing wasn't 'good enough' to qualify you here. Wherever it was, don't listen. I've read some of your work, and I saw a writer who shows a lot of promise.

Newbie writers should be welcome here, at any rate, and you write better than a 'newbie'. This is a wonderful place to make mistakes and learn from them. These story discussions and serious critical feedback should be taken with a grain of salt by the authors. In fact, I wish the authors would get their two cents in here and say something. I hate calling down a well and hearing no echo.

Writing is a learning process from the word go, and where better to learn than among a company of people who are at all stages of the learning process?

I agree with you about the body parts as a food item, but some people feel that body parts should be a food item, the cannibals. *g*

Mickie

 

[christo]

I'm back!

Sorry if I've been MIA for a week. I've been miserable with bronchitis for, oh, a month. Can't shake it.

Enough about my petty medical troubles. What about this story? This story contains two elements that are almost guaranteed to drive people batty-- it's (largely) in present tense, and it's (partly) told in second person. I remember the thread awhile back starring doctor_insanus and second person, and it almost turned into World War III. It's an uncomforable point of view, very confessional, and very hard to do well. Does it make sense, in this story, for the narrator to be speaking directly to Drew, when Drew is also involved in the action? You can almost imagine Drew saying, "Uh, honey, I was there, remember?"

Rather than ask for everyone's opinion on second person narration and risk global thermonuclear war, I'd like to throw something else out there-- what about using second-person with an "unreliable" narrator, a narrator whose version of things can't be trusted? Second person is addressing the reader personally, and it would be more interesting for the reader if it wasn't just like a letter. Hard to do, much more complex, but it might work. Or, maybe not? Can anyone think of a plotline where second person would be the best way, the ONLY way, to go?

And then there's the present tense. In college I read a book called "Continental Drift" by Russell Banks and it took me about 300 pages to stop translating it into past tense. Again, it's a bit difficult to get your mind around. Present tense is an artificial construct, obviously, since the action isn't happening RIGHT NOW. It conveys a sense of urgency, of immediacy, that can be very interesting.

But, and I'd like to put this out for discussion, would folks agree that when you use present tense you're making that fact as important as your plot and your characters. WHY is it in present tense? There has to be a reason beyond "it sounds neat". Why?

I don't think there was any reason for this story to be present tense and second person. There's an unusual "trois" in this "menage". You have a woman who is subservient to her boyfriend Drew, yet who is dominant enough to seduce a pretty young woman right there in her office chair. Usually in stories people are one way or another, not both at the same time, and that was interesting.

When you read fiction or see a movie you're have to bring a willing suspension of disbelief. Still, the writer has an obligation not to stretch that suspension to the breaking point. I don't think there's any way in the world that a woman would not be able to differentiate a dildo and a penis. I read that and said, "Wait, did I miss something?" Ain't no way.













[Edited by christo on 04-02-2001 at 08:11 PM]

 

[KillerMuffin]

There was a dildo in the story? I totally missed that.

 

[DarlingBri]

"Wouldn't you like a nick cock right now? Do want me to get a dildo? I know where one is..."

The "dildo" is actually the man. That's why the temp has to keep her eyes closed.

Least that's how I read it.

 

[Gus]

It makes one wonder two things, if the group can move past the "Yay! I'm an editor let me critique the story!" into the "have a discussion about the story and the mechanics thing."

I know that I'm a bit thick but what does this mean exactly Muffy? Usual rules apply - spell it out in words of one syllable. Were you talking about me? Or am I getting too sensitive.

Gus

 

[KillerMuffin]

It wasn't directed at anyone specifically, but all of us. Read the past few threads. It's all "Gee, the story was okay, there was a lot of misspelling, and the tenses were off. Otherwise, great story author, keep writing!" There wasn't any, "Second person reeks, I think people should be chained to the wall and tortured for subjecting it to us." "No, second person can be great, if it's used correctly." "I think that second person is the most comfortable for new writers so that's why we see alot of it."

Let's not talk to the writer in our posts. Let's talk about the story with each other.

 

[DarlingBri]

It can also be uncomfortable to post one's reaction to the story when one is not proficient in writing. A “newbie” of sorts to the literary world and the discussions of written works by others.

As far as I'm concerned, you're the audience the story was intended for and your feedback is just as important as anyone and everyone else's. This isn't, as far as I understand, really intended to make a "difference" for the author; it's a place to discuss your reactions and feedback with other interested readers.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[christo]

This wasn't intended to be an elitist group of snobby authors ripping apart some vulnerable writer's work (fun tho that would be). I would like the discussions to wander around all aspects of writing-- the mechanics of the story, the nuts and bolts, as well as things like plot, character, action, etc. I would hope that folks might share their wisdom and maybe learn something along the way.

All are welcome, from the most pristine virgin to the most haggard hardcore hack. The more the merrier.

But I agree with KillerMuffin that it would be better to focus a bit more deeply than "there were too many misspellings". We've just started this, so let's keep it goin' and get better and better at it.

 

[Gus]

Ah! Now it all makes sense and I must say that I agree with you. Unfortunately, in order to comply with your wishes, Muffy, we need to have stories that have been through the 'proof-reading' stage successfully. To date our stories have been full of all sorts of inaccuracies and that has distracted us from the story per se, if indeed there was a story.

This latest one should not, in my opinion, have been accepted for publication - the old pink e-mail no less.

Having been accepted for publication, it should not have been accepted for discussion. Yes, I know the rules. We have tried but it really is time for a bit more 'quality assurance'.

Suppose that it had been spelt right and had the tenses corrected. Suppose that the person point of view had been done properly, what would we have been left with? Where was the story to be discussed?

If these were representative of the tales that I get to edit, then I would have given up some time ago.

It had not been my intention to comment on this week's selection, it really was too bad. Perhaps we should change the rules of selection to 'known' writers or volunteer writers who will accept that if there are disrespectful errors - spelling, grammar etc then they will be criticised heavily.

Give us a story worthy of discussion and see what happens then.

Gus

 

[KillerMuffin]

Laurel won't do it, so it's a non-issue in all actuality, but the question comes to mind.

How much more strict with the acceptance rules do you feel she should be?

Personally, I think that she should send back anything that's chock full of typos, punctuation errors, and the like until it's corrected. With a nice note saying that we'll be happy to post your story as soon as you've gotten it at least mostly corrected. Something like that.

As an editor, I cringe whenever someone sends me a story that requires me to teach them how to use the basic mechanics of the language. And before we go there, you can tell if someone is writing a story where the characters don't know the basic mechanics, such as Huck Finn, or if the author just doesn't know the basics.

I don't claim to be the be all end all authority on English usage. But I do know bad usage irritates me.

 

[christo]

Some changes

Been talking to Weird Harold, and we may change the way that stories are selected for discussion. We may rotate the way stories are picked, so that one week we take a story of the Top List, another we pick one totally at random, another we have an author select a story, and maybe even let Laurel exercise her regal powers and pick something she wants discussed.

So, we've heard what you've had to say, and we're trying to make the group a more interesting place!

If anyone has any ideas or opinions please post 'em here. And, of course, feel free to continue discussing our current story.

 

[PAUL C]

A present for Drew

I thought the story had a couple of nice twists in it.

The changes in tense were noticible but I didn't find them too anoying.

The description of the sex acts were Okay. I'll admit I've read better.

At least it held me enough not to feel it was a chore to finish it.

I think the story has potential and could be re-worked into something a lot better.

 

[Blackbich]

A present for Drew

Okay, here goes.

If it weren't for this discussion circle, I wouldn't have read past the first paragraph of this story. It was too drawn out. Say something that makes me want to stay with it.

As far as the second person aspect - yes, there are times when it works. This wasn't one of them.

What is the deal with describing body parts as food? Instead try giving a description of what the breasts look like. I also thought the temp could have been described in more detail.

Basically, once I got past the first couple of paragraphs, I liked this story.

 

[alexander tzara]

I don't mind second person if it's done well. I don't really think it was used well in this story. Poor use of elipses (...) doesn't bother me too much 'cause my mind just ignores them while I'm reading. It's bad grammar but it doesn't necessarily spoil the flow for me. Jumping madly between past and present tense, though, really does irritate and distract me. Like others, I probably wouldn't have finished reading this if it wasn't for the purposes of discussion.

Basically, you can't please all of us 'cause we all have different pet hates but if a writer is unsure about grammar and punctuation, they should buy a book that explains the basics or consult one of the editors - 'cause those kinds of error can be a real barrier against readers fully enjoying a story.