When Lesbians Discriminate Based On Sexual Orientation..

I guess there's a limit to one of the "victim class" group's tolerance for diversity.....

Though lesbian activists have traditionally fought against discrimination based on sexual orientation, it is homosexual women who now are being accused of insensitivity by wanting to exclude from an upcoming event a specific group of people – transsexual lesbians who used to be males.

Transsexuals are protesting an Australian lesbian festival because an advertisement for the event mentions that only "female-born" lesbians are welcome, Agence France-Presse reported.

Festival organizers obtained an exemption from local equal-opportunity laws before going ahead with the controversial ads. According to the report, those in charge wanted even the event's caterers to be traditional lesbians.

Offended by the slight, transsexuals appealed the exemption, the news service reports, and the Victorian Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal yesterday overturned its earlier ruling.

The transsexuals complained the festival failed to recognize lesbians who came by their gender surgically.

Anna Holland-Moore, a spokeswoman for Lesfest 2004, however, said there was a difference between lesbians brought up female and those brought up male, AFP reported.

"It's not about excluding, it's about affirmation of our identity," Holland-Moore told the news service. "We just wanted a week together to consolidate our culture and discuss relevant issues."

The group sought to exclude not only male-born lesbian transsexuals, but also boys over 8 and non-lesbian girls over 15.

Karen Gurney of WOMAN, a group that lobbies "for the rights of Australian women with transsexualism," hailed the decision by the tribunal.

"The strong support we received from the mainstream GL community for our full acceptance as the women we are was particularly appreciated by people with transsexualism," she said in a statement.

The report said the organizers of Lesfest have yet to decide what their next move will be. They might do away with public advertising and simply send private invitations to the January festival.


*Things that make you go..hmmmmm?

Got to love the creative name of the event... LesFest, lol.

I just find it odd that some groups fight against discrimination for themselves but then stop short when it comes to something they don't agree with.

SleepingWarrior said:

Got to love the creative name of the event... LesFest, lol.

I just find it odd that some groups fight against discrimination for themselves but then stop short when it comes to something they don't agree with.

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It's hardly odd, just plain simple human nature.............

"simple human nature"

Which is now against the law, thanks to the same people that want an exemption to it now.

*They'll have to solve this problem.."lickitysplit!"

Lost Cause said:

I guess there's a limit to one of the "victim class" group's tolerance for diversity.....

Though lesbian activists have traditionally fought against discrimination based on sexual orientation, it is homosexual women who now are being accused of insensitivity by wanting to exclude from an upcoming event a specific group of people – transsexual lesbians who used to be males.

Transsexuals are protesting an Australian lesbian festival because an advertisement for the event mentions that only "female-born" lesbians are welcome, Agence France-Presse reported.

Festival organizers obtained an exemption from local equal-opportunity laws before going ahead with the controversial ads. According to the report, those in charge wanted even the event's caterers to be traditional lesbians.

Offended by the slight, transsexuals appealed the exemption, the news service reports, and the Victorian Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal yesterday overturned its earlier ruling.

The transsexuals complained the festival failed to recognize lesbians who came by their gender surgically.

Anna Holland-Moore, a spokeswoman for Lesfest 2004, however, said there was a difference between lesbians brought up female and those brought up male, AFP reported.

"It's not about excluding, it's about affirmation of our identity," Holland-Moore told the news service. "We just wanted a week together to consolidate our culture and discuss relevant issues."

The group sought to exclude not only male-born lesbian transsexuals, but also boys over 8 and non-lesbian girls over 15.

Karen Gurney of WOMAN, a group that lobbies "for the rights of Australian women with transsexualism," hailed the decision by the tribunal.

"The strong support we received from the mainstream GL community for our full acceptance as the women we are was particularly appreciated by people with transsexualism," she said in a statement.

The report said the organizers of Lesfest have yet to decide what their next move will be. They might do away with public advertising and simply send private invitations to the January festival.


*Things that make you go..hmmmmm?

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??? Aren't guys who become women through surgery usually interested in other guys sexually? Is this a tiny minority of another minority that is affected?

I've said it before and I will say it again, you don't come by your gender surgically. There is a hell of a lot more to gender than whether you have breasts (in the case of most transexuals, fake breasts) and/or a vagina (in the case of most transexuals, a fake vagina, if they have a vagina at all).

It is almost like the old joke that I am a lesbian trapped in a male body.

I am not trying to show insensitivity to transexuals, but, with rare exceptions, you are pretty much whatever gender you are born as. You may have certain psychological traits of the opposite gender, but then most of us do. You may be mixed up about which gender you wish to be, some of us are - and if having surgery makes you happy, then more power to you - go for it. But don't expect everyone to treat you as if you had magically transformed your gender with some cosmetic surgery and some hormone treatments. It didn't happen (there is more to it than that) - and it ain't gonna happen; you are still a guy with fake tits - learn to live with it, you will be happier than trying to make the rest of the world live with it.

i think generally the gay community if pretty welcome to each other but they still also like to have their independence from each other as well with some events

i wouldn't call that discriminating


i guess the problem is though men who've had sex changes feel they should be accepted as 100% lesbians now ... i wouldn't go as far as heretic but i can see why some lesbians would still see them as men and so why this event would be restricted to only born women ... i've never really considered it at all but i might also consider a sex changed man still male

So women that have had their sex changed (much rarer than male to female surgery though) are welcomed at this event? Hey they are a natural born woman... If things come down to it I would have liked to see if a female to male tranny show up and see if they were accepted.

What do they (the lesbian women) think they stand to lose by not allowing the trannies to join in?

When I was in the college Republicans club we had a bunch of Muslims and Jewish people who formed their own unofficial factions. The club President and I went over and talked to both groups; in a few days they were all hanging out peacefully, united under the Republican cause. No one ever fought for the whole 3 more semesters that I was there.

Likewise, if I were the lesbian women in charge of Lesfest 2004, I'd take charge of this controversy and turn it into a weapon by inviting these outsiders to join in. Of course, they might not grasp the big picture as readily as those Jewish and Muslim college GOPers did.

Humans are weird like that.

If only more people would grasp the meaning of "common cause"....

LovingTongue said:

What do they (the lesbian women) think they stand to lose by not allowing the trannies to join in?

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theres plenty of events of that type where lesbians and all people of GBLT type all mix together with straight people too ... you might of seen them on tv gay pride marches

i don't see whats the big deal that they wanted to have an event just for themselves

sexy-girl said:

theres plenty of events of that type where lesbians and all people of GBLT type all mix together with straight people too ... you might of seen them on tv gay pride marches

i don't see whats the big deal that they wanted to have an event just for themselves

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Here's an insightful article centered around just such an event: Scarlet Letters: Dragged, Kicking and Screaming

Originally posted by Lost Cause
I guess there's a limit to one of the "victim class" group's tolerance for diversity.....
. . .
*Things that make you go..hmmmmm?

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Classic of the Liberal/Collectivist thinking. Discrimination is an abomination UNLESS you happen to fall into one of the elite groups who possess special rights; then you are exempt from the discrimination constraints. And the

"It's not about excluding, it's about affirmation of our identity,"

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is assertion of the group identity, group think hogwash of the collectivist mindset.

Originally posted by Cheyenne
??? Aren't guys who become women through surgery usually interested in other guys sexually? Is this a tiny minority of another minority that is affected?

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Or maybe they were such pathetic losers that changing gender and then declaring themselve homosexual was the only way they could get near a woman! A couple of posters at Lit come to mind.

Lost Cause said:

I guess there's a limit to one of the "victim class" group's tolerance for diversity.....

Though lesbian activists have traditionally fought against discrimination based on sexual orientation, it is homosexual women who now are being accused of insensitivity by wanting to exclude from an upcoming event a specific group of people – transsexual lesbians who used to be males.

Transsexuals are protesting an Australian lesbian festival because an advertisement for the event mentions that only "female-born" lesbians are welcome, Agence France-Presse reported.

Festival organizers obtained an exemption from local equal-opportunity laws before going ahead with the controversial ads. According to the report, those in charge wanted even the event's caterers to be traditional lesbians.

Offended by the slight, transsexuals appealed the exemption, the news service reports, and the Victorian Civil and Administrative Appeals Tribunal yesterday overturned its earlier ruling.

The transsexuals complained the festival failed to recognize lesbians who came by their gender surgically.

Anna Holland-Moore, a spokeswoman for Lesfest 2004, however, said there was a difference between lesbians brought up female and those brought up male, AFP reported.

"It's not about excluding, it's about affirmation of our identity," Holland-Moore told the news service. "We just wanted a week together to consolidate our culture and discuss relevant issues."

The group sought to exclude not only male-born lesbian transsexuals, but also boys over 8 and non-lesbian girls over 15.

Karen Gurney of WOMAN, a group that lobbies "for the rights of Australian women with transsexualism," hailed the decision by the tribunal.

"The strong support we received from the mainstream GL community for our full acceptance as the women we are was particularly appreciated by people with transsexualism," she said in a statement.

The report said the organizers of Lesfest have yet to decide what their next move will be. They might do away with public advertising and simply send private invitations to the January festival.


*Things that make you go..hmmmmm?

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Is your objection to lesbians having their own events, or to this group defining transgendered women as still being men?

I have objection....

To anyone doing whatever they want so long as they're not preaching hatred or division.

I found this article strange so far as a self assigned "special class" of people protected against discrimination by the State, can now define their own discrimination practices.

So exclusion is a valid claim in society, and anyone can be excluded by any group because they don't fit a profile.

Back to square one.

The Heretic said:

I've said it before and I will say it again, you don't come by your gender surgically. There is a hell of a lot more to gender than whether you have breasts (in the case of most transexuals, fake breasts) and/or a vagina (in the case of most transexuals, a fake vagina, if they have a vagina at all).

It is almost like the old joke that I am a lesbian trapped in a male body.

I am not trying to show insensitivity to transexuals, but, with rare exceptions, you are pretty much whatever gender you are born as. You may have certain psychological traits of the opposite gender, but then most of us do. You may be mixed up about which gender you wish to be, some of us are - and if having surgery makes you happy, then more power to you - go for it. But don't expect everyone to treat you as if you had magically transformed your gender with some cosmetic surgery and some hormone treatments. It didn't happen (there is more to it than that) - and it ain't gonna happen; you are still a guy with fake tits - learn to live with it, you will be happier than trying to make the rest of the world live with it.

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Really? How do you know? How could you even POSSIBLY think you know how they feel? You have a lot of nerve.

OBVIOUSLY they have tried to be happy as what they were, or it would never have gotten to the point of surgery. You think people like to be treated like shit because of how they feel sexually and as a human being? You think they want to be ridiculed because they feel differently than most of us? What is wrong with you?

Re: Re: When Lesbians Discriminate Based On Sexual Orientation..

Queersetti said:

Is your objection to lesbians having their own events, or to this group defining transgendered women as still being men?

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i didn't know either what he meant


but i don't know is it wrong to define someone as transgendered as still a man ?

im sure it probably isn't how they would want to be seen ... but can someone help their own prejudices ... im not sure if i could see someone who was transgendered the same as i would a "natural" woman



phrodeau i'll read that article later

Re: Re: Re: When Lesbians Discriminate Based On Sexual Orientation..

Lost Cause said:

*Things that make you go..hmmmmm?

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Not really hmmmmm. More like Yeuch.

Re: I have objection....

Lost Cause said:

To anyone doing whatever they want so long as they're not preaching hatred or division.

I found this article strange so far as a self assigned "special class" of people protected against discrimination by the State, can now define their own discrimination practices.

So exclusion is a valid claim in society, and anyone can be excluded by any group because they don't fit a profile.

Back to square one.

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So, in your view, lesbian groups should have to allow men to become members?

sexy-girl said:

theres plenty of events of that type where lesbians and all people of GBLT type all mix together with straight people too ... you might of seen them on tv gay pride marches

i don't see whats the big deal that they wanted to have an event just for themselves

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True, they have every right to exclude the transgendered people as they so please. Far be it from me to say they should be forced into doing anything.

I'm just saying that they're squandering a good PR weapon.

LovingTongue said:

True, they have every right to exclude the transgendered people as they so please. Far be it from me to say they should be forced into doing anything.

I'm just saying that they're squandering a good PR weapon.

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So really whats the difference then if straight people want to exclude homosexuals, trannies or whatever? They want to be able to exclude who they want but you know they would make a big stink and try to get themself included in any event that said they were excluded.

If any one group is allowed to discriminate then all others should be allowed to do the same. So the next time they get excluded from something I hope they don't fight it or pitch a fit over it.

SleepingWarrior said:

So really whats the difference then if straight people want to exclude homosexuals, trannies or whatever? They want to be able to exclude who they want but you know they would make a big stink and try to get themself included in any event that said they were excluded.

If any one group is allowed to discriminate then all others should be allowed to do the same. So the next time they get excluded from something I hope they don't fight it or pitch a fit over it.

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Exclusion based on gender is not the same as exclusion based on orientation.

You can argue that both are wrong, but they are not the same thing.

It's simply the right of free association, that any group of people should be free to define what that group is, and to choose to associate with who ever they choose. As long as they don't get government funding and they're not breaking the law they have the right to do what they like. I don't understand why someone would want to force one's way in when not welcome. You just start your own group.

Queersetti said:

Exclusion based on gender is not the same as exclusion based on orientation.

You can argue that both are wrong, but they are not the same thing.

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So... exclusion based on gender is ok while exclusion based on orientation isn't? They aren't exactly the same I agree but the arguements have the same reasoning.

It is hard to understand why things like this don't get bitched about a little more by people. You exclude one group of people because you think they made a choice (to be transgender) and expect to be included by people and groups that may think your homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuals expect to be treated as if they were born that way but who are they to say a transgendered person wasn't meant to be born the opposite sex of which they were born?

So basically I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that discrimination/exclusion in any form is wrong. Discrimination won't end as long as one person practices it.