Informed perspective on the results of war with Iraq

Temptress_1960

Just a bit tied up...
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This is a column from the Rutland Herald, in Rutland, VT.

Dire predictions
March 18, 2003

I believe I am the only living American with this unique background, which may allow some informed predictions on the results of the proposed Iraqi war:

* I fought in World War II as an enlisted decorated combat infantryman.

* I lived as an American diplomat in the Arab world for eight and one-half years (four and one-half in Syria, two each in Tunisia and Libya) and headed the United States Information Service Greek-Turkish-Iranian desk for two years in Washington.

* I served as chief information officer for the United States in Vietnam for almost two years, including Tet, trying to explain U.S. attempts to nation-build while helping one side in a civil war.

With the convictions this experience has engendered, I will make some rather dire predictions. Assuming that we, and Britain as our only significant ally, invade Iraq within the next month, I predict:

1. The invasion will be successful in that Saddam will be gone — one way or another — although our losses in even limited urban fighting will be considerably higher than the 148 killed in action in the Gulf War.

2. Invasion of Iraq will no more help cure the Israeli-Palestinian cancer than readers taking two aspirin with water. That problem will only be solved when the majority of the people on each side decide to control the fanatics who refuse to entertain the compromises that alone can bring peace. I have never met an Arab who was not convinced that America is pro-Israeli and did not think that one motive for Iraq invasion is to protect Israel.

3. American casualties will begin to mount as soon as we have occupied the country. Even those who hate a regime — or an administration — will not abide an invader. In this case the invader is a Western (read colonial) nation almost wholly composed of infidels.

4. Arab (and Kurd) fighting tactics have always been akin to guerilla warfare. Make a raid on a few, hit hard and disappear. Such tactics, used by the Viet Cong and often by the North Vietnamese, tend to neutralize the advantage of a highly technological military. We will also see our weekly casualty list increasing inexorably. In Vietnam it finally totaled 47,383 dead.

5. Invasion of an Arab country will strengthen the resolve of young people throughout Islam’s 1,188,344,000 adherents. We will be far less safe abroad or at home than we are now after Sept. 11. Americans will be targets everywhere. Our civilian casualties will probably be higher than our military ones.

6. We will either be attempting to discourage a civil war between combinations of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, or we will stand aside to watch the killing fields. Remember Yugoslavia in World War II, where Croats and Serbs waged a war against each other except on the occasion when they found any opportunity to collaborate on raids against the hated German occupier.

7. Iraq has never had a democracy, and democratization will not come out of a gun barrel. Iraq will either be ruled by a latter-day MacArthur or by the winner of a domestic war. Neither will have a cohesive country made up of one people speaking one language, as in Germany and Japan. It will be neither easy nor pretty.

8. How a crushed and divided Iraq is supposed to act as the seed from which other Arab democracies will spring takes an imagination beyond that of J.K. Rowling. Regime changes, however urgent, in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, must be made by Syrians, Saudis and Egyptians. They will not spring from a political system inflicted by an alien nation.

9. Oil is, of course, a very volatile commodity. Easily set afire, easily sabotaged at the well head, easily spilled from desert-crossing pipelines, and equally easily destroyed in its deepest pools, we will have little Iraqi oil to pay for occupation or for minimal nourishment of the population.

10. Costs of this invasion, and above all of the occupation, will be in the trillions. Or we can, of course, just let millions of Iraqis starve to death. Not, thank God, likely. To meet the debt, we will do what every other country has done when it has spent disastrously: print money. Hyperinflation, here we come.

I apologize for the pessimism that pervades these predictions. I hope that I am wrong. But there is still the fact that I’m perhaps the only one who has been a front-line soldier, a diplomat in the Arab world, a nation builder and has lived to amalgamate the experiences.

Pray, though, that we find a better path to peace and security than war. Let the world never say of America, as it once did of Rome, “They created a desert and called it peace.”

Harris Peel is a resident of Danby.
 
thank you Temptress, very enlightening!

makemecumloudly why dont you take two aspirin with water :rolleyes:
 
makemecumloudly said:
Words of a traitor. He should be shot.

And here I thought treason had to be proved in a court, with evidence presented before a jury of his peers? You could save the US Govt an absolute fortune just by rocking up to the courthouse and saying 'Yep, he's guilty. Off with his head!'
 
*perk*

Hm.

I'm hesitant to believe that this will be a clean, quick operation. I think it will be. I hope it will be. I hope that the Iraqi army will, as in the Gulf War, prove to be more ready to surrender than not. I hope that the removal of Saddam Hussein will demonstrate our fortitude in dealing with those who either threaten us or have the will and potential to do so. I hope that the removal of Hussein will also be the chance the Iraqi people need to get their country together. I hope that this will help us in the quest to diminish Al-Qaeda's organization. I'm hopeful in general.

I'm more optimistic than this person. But then, I'm 28 and have never (despite my signatures) wandered away from the U.S. for more than a few days. I've never been to war. I only know what I hear and read, and try as I might to be discerning about the information that reaches me and cautious about its sources, it's true that one never knows until they've been there.

But I have some very well-informed sources. You'll just have to take my word for that :D

My primary contention with the column is the comparison between Vietnam and the impending war against Iraq. Vietnam, it seems to me, had some key differences that made it more successful than Iraq can hope to be. First, they were helped by neighboring countries and funded in part by China. No one is going to help Saddam Hussein. Also, and forgive what may seem like a racial stereotype (but is actually a cultural difference), the Vietnamese, like many Asian cultures, were extremely organized and they embrace modernism, which can't be said for quite a few Middle-Eastern nations. Also, they were cohesive and dedicated. I doubt Iraq's fortitude. The terrain of the two countries are practical opposites- guerilla tactics are more effective in jungles than in a vast desert, and besides, we know how to employ guerilla tactics as well. And technology on our side is much more advanced than what we had in Vietnam.

Also, I think...

(looks at size of post thus far)

that I'm talking too much.

I'd better stop, or this will turn into a book. I mean it, lol.

Anyway, thought-provoking column, even if it is a panic button-pusher.

Quieting in Queensland,
Ellie
 
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That's an excellent letter, forgetting of course that EVERY enterprise Americans untake comes with warnings about "how things like this didn't work in the past" and "how it's been tried by others" etc. We can defeat Iraq, depose Saddam, rebuild the infrastructure, heal enthic wounds, end the cycle of revenge, seed a democracy, and get out.

Yes, we can.
 
EllieTalbot said:
*perk*

Hm.

I'm hesitant to believe that this will be a clean, quick operation. I think it will be. I hope it will be. I hope that the Iraqi army will, as in the Gulf War, prove to be more ready to surrender than not. I hope that the removal of Saddam Hussein will demonstrate our fortitude in dealing with those who either threaten us or have the will and potential to do so. I hope that the removal of Hussein will also be the chance the Iraqi people need to get their country together. I hope that this will help us in the quest to diminish Al-Qaeda's organization. I'm hopeful in general.

I'm more optimistic than this person. But then, I'm 28 and have never (despite my signatures) wandered away from the U.S. for more than a few days. I've never been to war. I only know what I hear and read, and try as I might to be discerning about the information that reaches me and cautious about its sources, it's true that one never knows until they've been there.

But I have some very well-informed sources. You'll just have to take my word for that :D

My primary contention with the column is the comparison between Vietnam and the impending war against Iraq. Vietnam, it seems to me, had some key differences that made it more successful than Iraq can hope to be. First, they were helped by neighboring countries and funded in part by China. No one is going to help Saddam Hussein. Also, and forgive what may seem like a racial stereotype (but is actually a cultural difference), the Vietnamese, like many Asian cultures, were extremely organized and they embrace modernism, which can't be said for quite a few Middle-Eastern nations. Also, they were cohesive and dedicated. I doubt Iraq's fortitude. The terrain of the two countries are practical opposites- guerilla tactics are more effective in jungles than in a vast desert, and besides, we know how to employ guerilla tactics as well. And technology on our side is much more advanced than what we had in Vietnam.

Also, I think...

(looks at size of post thus far)

that I'm talking too much.

I'd better stop, or this will turn into a book. I mean it, lol.

Anyway, thought-provoking column, even if it is a panic button-pusher.

Quieting in Queensland,
Ellie

Ellie, you made some excellent points. While I respect what this man has been through and done, I don't think a Vietnam comparison is really a valid one, with what Ellie pointed out as being some of the reasons. Also, for anyone who thinks that we cannot rebuild a government, remember Japan. I think they have turned out pretty well, for the most part.
 
I try to keep an open mind (Not so open that my brains fall out, though....)

I hope, for the US's sake, that this goes the way Ellie thinks it will

Other than that.....

*smiles grimly* I'm just glad that Canada has avoided entering into the coalition of the willing.
 
He (Harris Peel) states that the oil fields will be sabotaged beyond all repair, but in Gulf War 1, The Iraqi's set fire to and damaged the wellheads pretty badly, yet it only took Red Adair Co. and Boots & Coots Oil Firefighting Co. about 6 months to bring production back. And at the time, 'experts' claimed a 2-3 years recovery. The worst part was the extensive enviormental damage. If we are occupying and governing (hopefully for only a short time)the country a'la Japan post WWII, shouldn't the oil money to be gained be enough to pay for said occupation? And if those billions would be spent building hospitals, schools, mosques and housing instead of huge ornate palaces, massive military spending and the like, wouldn't that go a long way in possibly reestablishing a working relationship with the people?
Time will tell I suppose.
 
Thanks, Temp. I agree with almost everything he's said.

Especially this:

3. American casualties will begin to mount as soon as we have occupied the country. Even those who hate a regime — or an administration — will not abide an invader. In this case the invader is a Western (read colonial) nation almost wholly composed of infidels.

Even people who hate Saddam will not welcome us.
 
Dixon Carter Lee said:
We can defeat Iraq, depose Saddam, rebuild the infrastructure, heal enthic wounds, end the cycle of revenge, seed a democracy, and get out.

Yes, we can.

:D :D

ppman
 
Great post Temp.

What this man has written ... I have never agreed with anything so much. Ever.

And while Ellie made some very good comments I think the majority of what he says will come to pass.
 
Temptress_1960 said:
This is a column from the Rutland Herald, in Rutland, VT.

Dire predictions
March 18, 2003

I believe I am the only living American with this unique background, which may allow some informed predictions on the results of the proposed Iraqi war:

* I fought in World War II as an enlisted decorated combat infantryman.

* I lived as an American diplomat in the Arab world for eight and one-half years (four and one-half in Syria, two each in Tunisia and Libya) and headed the United States Information Service Greek-Turkish-Iranian desk for two years in Washington.

* I served as chief information officer for the United States in Vietnam for almost two years, including Tet, trying to explain U.S. attempts to nation-build while helping one side in a civil war.

With the convictions this experience has engendered, I will make some rather dire predictions. Assuming that we, and Britain as our only significant ally, invade Iraq within the next month, I predict:

1. The invasion will be successful in that Saddam will be gone — one way or another — although our losses in even limited urban fighting will be considerably higher than the 148 killed in action in the Gulf War.

2. Invasion of Iraq will no more help cure the Israeli-Palestinian cancer than readers taking two aspirin with water. That problem will only be solved when the majority of the people on each side decide to control the fanatics who refuse to entertain the compromises that alone can bring peace. I have never met an Arab who was not convinced that America is pro-Israeli and did not think that one motive for Iraq invasion is to protect Israel.

3. American casualties will begin to mount as soon as we have occupied the country. Even those who hate a regime — or an administration — will not abide an invader. In this case the invader is a Western (read colonial) nation almost wholly composed of infidels.

4. Arab (and Kurd) fighting tactics have always been akin to guerilla warfare. Make a raid on a few, hit hard and disappear. Such tactics, used by the Viet Cong and often by the North Vietnamese, tend to neutralize the advantage of a highly technological military. We will also see our weekly casualty list increasing inexorably. In Vietnam it finally totaled 47,383 dead.

5. Invasion of an Arab country will strengthen the resolve of young people throughout Islam’s 1,188,344,000 adherents. We will be far less safe abroad or at home than we are now after Sept. 11. Americans will be targets everywhere. Our civilian casualties will probably be higher than our military ones.

6. We will either be attempting to discourage a civil war between combinations of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, or we will stand aside to watch the killing fields. Remember Yugoslavia in World War II, where Croats and Serbs waged a war against each other except on the occasion when they found any opportunity to collaborate on raids against the hated German occupier.

7. Iraq has never had a democracy, and democratization will not come out of a gun barrel. Iraq will either be ruled by a latter-day MacArthur or by the winner of a domestic war. Neither will have a cohesive country made up of one people speaking one language, as in Germany and Japan. It will be neither easy nor pretty.

8. How a crushed and divided Iraq is supposed to act as the seed from which other Arab democracies will spring takes an imagination beyond that of J.K. Rowling. Regime changes, however urgent, in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, must be made by Syrians, Saudis and Egyptians. They will not spring from a political system inflicted by an alien nation.

9. Oil is, of course, a very volatile commodity. Easily set afire, easily sabotaged at the well head, easily spilled from desert-crossing pipelines, and equally easily destroyed in its deepest pools, we will have little Iraqi oil to pay for occupation or for minimal nourishment of the population.

10. Costs of this invasion, and above all of the occupation, will be in the trillions. Or we can, of course, just let millions of Iraqis starve to death. Not, thank God, likely. To meet the debt, we will do what every other country has done when it has spent disastrously: print money. Hyperinflation, here we come.

I apologize for the pessimism that pervades these predictions. I hope that I am wrong. But there is still the fact that I’m perhaps the only one who has been a front-line soldier, a diplomat in the Arab world, a nation builder and has lived to amalgamate the experiences.

Pray, though, that we find a better path to peace and security than war. Let the world never say of America, as it once did of Rome, “They created a desert and called it peace.”

Harris Peel is a resident of Danby.


I have lived and worked in the Arab world and North Africa,I speak Arabic and English,I am an american citizen born in Texas,and now in Florida,I am a Sufi Muslim in case anyone wasn't aware.

Someone here asked my opinion,so here goes nothing,but before I make comments on each point,keep in mind that I Reluctantly support this war

Allright here goes nothing...


1. The invasion will be successful in that Saddam will be gone — one way or another — although our losses in even limited urban fighting will be considerably higher than the 148 killed in action in the Gulf War.

This is most likely true,unfortunately.

2. Invasion of Iraq will no more help cure the Israeli-Palestinian cancer than readers taking two aspirin with water. That problem will only be solved when the majority of the people on each side decide to control the fanatics who refuse to entertain the compromises that alone can bring peace. I have never met an Arab who was not convinced that America is pro-Israeli and did not think that one motive for Iraq invasion is to protect Israel.

This is very true in both regards,I myself dont have a problem with an Israeli country existing,but I don't trust Israeli motives,One problem here is that the Arab world impression is that the US only seems to take the Israeli side in most disputes,in some regards its a bitch about fairness,in others it is paranoia,and even in others it is lost pride,take your pick


3. American casualties will begin to mount as soon as we have occupied the country. Even those who hate a regime — or an administration — will not abide an invader. In this case the invader is a Western (read colonial) nation almost wholly composed of infidels.

I figuire we have 1 month..2 months tops after Hussein is gone,and then we will stick a puppet man to run Iraq,and we will have some insurrections based on rumors of forced conversions as well as we will be regarded as a Colonial power,and treated as such,it will be nasty I'm afraid,I hope I'm wrong.

4. Arab (and Kurd) fighting tactics have always been akin to guerilla warfare. Make a raid on a few, hit hard and disappear. Such tactics, used by the Viet Cong and often by the North Vietnamese, tend to neutralize the advantage of a highly technological military. We will also see our weekly casualty list increasing inexorably. In Vietnam it finally totaled 47,383 dead.

One of the few things the Shi'ites{60% of population} and the Sunnis{20-25% of population} have agreed on in past...is that they both want to kill the Kurds,if we allow the Kurds to form an independent state,Then the Turks will invade and make things harder,If we dont allow the Kurds to,they will be helping the Sunnis and Shi'ites..Our grace period with the Kurds is a bit longer...maybe 6 months,past that...Our Tech may very well work against us.

5. Invasion of an Arab country will strengthen the resolve of young people throughout Islam’s 1,188,344,000 adherents. We will be far less safe abroad or at home than we are now after Sept. 11. Americans will be targets everywhere. Our civilian casualties will probably be higher than our military ones.


I believe that this,but to allow Iraq to keep all its biological and/or chemical weapons..would have the same result...not much saftey,and while the Al-Qadea link was never proven,links to other Terrorist organizations have been,so consider that.Its a damned if we do or dont situation.


6. We will either be attempting to discourage a civil war between combinations of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis, or we will stand aside to watch the killing fields. Remember Yugoslavia in World War II, where Croats and Serbs waged a war against each other except on the occasion when they found any opportunity to collaborate on raids against the hated German occupier.


Discourage is a curious word,more like armed and forcibly stopping it is more accurate.


7. Iraq has never had a democracy, and democratization will not come out of a gun barrel. Iraq will either be ruled by a latter-day MacArthur or by the winner of a domestic war. Neither will have a cohesive country made up of one people speaking one language, as in Germany and Japan. It will be neither easy nor pretty.

very true,and if we arent carefull we may end up with another Theocracy like Iran,remember..we helped the Shah take and keep power..and look what happened,Its not possible to export democracy to Iraq Im afraid,the best we can hope for is a relatively pro-western DICKtator,like Mubarak of Eygpt.


8. How a crushed and divided Iraq is supposed to act as the seed from which other Arab democracies will spring takes an imagination beyond that of J.K. Rowling. Regime changes, however urgent, in Syria, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, must be made by Syrians, Saudis and Egyptians. They will not spring from a political system inflicted by an alien nation.

I genrally agree here,If I didnt believe that Iraq had chemical/bilogical weapons I would be out marching in a peace protest myself.


9. Oil is, of course, a very volatile commodity. Easily set afire, easily sabotaged at the well head, easily spilled from desert-crossing pipelines, and equally easily destroyed in its deepest pools, we will have little Iraqi oil to pay for occupation or for minimal nourishment of the population.


All too true I'm afraid,but not a whole lot different than how a generation of Iraqi children have dealt with since the original desert storm.


10. Costs of this invasion, and above all of the occupation, will be in the trillions. Or we can, of course, just let millions of Iraqis starve to death. Not, thank God, likely. To meet the debt, we will do what every other country has done when it has spent disastrously: print money. Hyperinflation, here we come.

I cant predict this one.




CH
 
Wow you didn't have to go through all the trouble of responding to each point. I would have been happy with a quick “overall yes but no on these points”

I was just interested in seeing the conflict from another point of view. Lots of Americans and Europeans but not too many of Muslim faith from anywhere in the world.

So in essence you’re saying that you agree with most of the points set out and that it’s the WMD that bothers you more than US force. Very interesting!

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.

Either way I hope our worst predictions will not happen and that this war is over soon.
 
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It's a wonder how humanity got this far...

I'll make this simple, the history of man....

*Step on dick* Adjust *Step on dick* Adjust *Step on dick* Adjust...

I think that sums it up better than that person in the editorial that has been out of the loop, and out of his meds.
 
Blindinthedark said:
Great post Temp.

What this man has written ... I have never agreed with anything so much. Ever.

And while Ellie made some very good comments I think the majority of what he says will come to pass.

Ditto. Also agree with Sandia on the point that even the people that have such hate and fear for Saddam hate America more. They don't want us there liberating them, period. But of course the coalition forces know what's best for them and everyone else in the world. [note sarcasm] It's the thing that scared me most about this war, after the given death and destruction. I fear the hatrad for the U.S. is steadily rising.
 
Re: It's a wonder how humanity got this far...

Lost Cause said:
I'll make this simple, the history of man....

*Step on dick* Adjust *Step on dick* Adjust *Step on dick* Adjust...

I think that sums it up better than that person in the editorial that has been out of the loop, and out of his meds.
Are you sure you aren't missing your meds :D

Steppin' on dicks aint no way to win a war. Only leads to crushed dicks.

The man makes some good point though and you haven't really addressed them.
 
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