Feminism and being a submissive

I am just wondering how you would reconcile the two. I mean how can one be a feminism and be a submissive. I understand the freedom of choice part but I highly doubt that is the feminist movement wanted us to be submissives. (Perhaps I am not explaing myself correctly).

Oh if this has been discussed in other threads, please don't send me there, please I beg you , I may never come back alive...

Miss Diva said:

I am just wondering how you would reconcile the two. I mean how can one be a feminism and be a submissive. I understand the freedom of choice part but I highly doubt that is the feminist movement wanted us to be submissives. (Perhaps I am not explaing myself correctly).

Oh if this has been discussed in other threads, please don't send me there, please I beg you , I may never come back alive...

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I think the feminist movement wanted women to be whatever they want to be.

Oh, they thought bdsm was the greatest evil in the history of Womankind. That is until the Domme lesbians kicked their asses over it. And that's not off the top of my head either, you can research it.

Marquis said:

I think the feminist movement wanted women to be whatever they want to be.

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I think the feminist movement leaders want women to be what they (the leadership) think they should be. They do NOT in any way shape or form approve of the a woman's right to choose to be or do whatever she wants, particularly something as anti-agenda as a submissive or a slave. The sorts of sick control freaks you find in the feminist hangouts trying to dictate to the rest of womnakind what they can or cannot do (they aren't doing the control thing out of lust, they try to control other women out of hate) make me deeply ashamed of my gender.

Being a hard core feminist (other's words not mine, but proudly owned) I have met women of the ilk Tainted speaks, but invariably many of them would say they did not want to be labelled feminists. The feminists I have worked and lived along side of who have given a substantial amount of their time and money to furthering the rights of women, and are held as international leaders of the movement, have all held it is the right of women to choose the lifestyle they wish, and a few of them were heavily into BDSM. Despite what people want to say, that is one of the core principles of feminism and it is not the lable someone wears which counts but the values they uphold. Another one of those core principles relates to not judging the choices or actions of others based on your own.

Catalina

feminists

Femists decide who they are and be who they choose to be.

James

I honestly believe women should have rights and responsiblities equal to men. So if they're happy serving another, rock on. If they're happy paddling a concenting adult, more power to the them. If they're completely fulfilled being a stay at home mom or a corprate go-getter, that's okay too.

Now, a zealot of most any sort would have a problem with BDSM but they tend to have problems with most things that don't fit in their cookie-cutter ideal of how the world should be.

I would add comments of my own but Vixandra quite nicely put pretty much exactly what I already think.

I go to a private, religious, women's university in the southern USA that has a high population of what we happily refer to as rabid feminists. Last year an attempt was made to start a BDSM group for the purpose of support and information sharing. We were not planning on promoting BDSM, demonstrating anything, or engaging in sexual behaviour during get togethers (who you went home with was your own business). A Resident Assistant found out about the meetings and the campus came positively unglued - with one of the primary arguements against us being that "BDSM is enforcing the idea that women are inferior to men." Logical counters such as "What about Dommes who have male submissives?" and "What about lesbian couples?" stymied many of the equality minded feminists but the rabid feminists were more inclined to argue that "If even one woman is oppressed by a man the practice itself is evil."
Now, I must admit that I do enjoy a good arguement and the rabid feminists in this case provided an excellent one. To them the idea that someone would choose to be submissive to another person constituted a form of mental illness. They could not fathom that to some of us (myself included) being submissive was more comfortable than standing on an equal footing.
Ultimately I think that the ability to equate feminism with being a submissive depends on the level of feminism that you hold. A rabid feminist sees complete equality as a requirement not only for herself but for all women. An equality minded feminist wants equal opportunities to exist for men and women but acknowledges that there are some women who will choose not to take advantage of those opportunites. These are, in my view, two ends of a scale and there is a gigantic range in between them.

Hmm... Actually it was the NOW people who beat up the kinky women but I knew there was a cat fight in here somewhere.

http://members.aol.com/NOWSM/SMPRP.html


The S/M Policy Reform Statement contends that safe, sane and consensual S/M is an affectional/sexual preference/orientation. The S/M Policy Reform Project has gathered supporting evidence from psychiatrists and physicians, NOW feminists, and quotes from authors to prove that safe, sane and consensual S/M is not violence nor is it detrimental to a woman's mental or physical well-being. In fact, NOW's policy has actually led to violence against women in the past, such as the physical attacks on s/m women at a Michigan women's festival in which the attendees took NOW's anti-S/M policy to its "logical" conclusion by physically attacking and injuring their sisters.

In the past decade, the lesbian and gay movement has embraced the rights of s/m practitioners to participate in and help lead the movement and struggle for human and civil rights. The freedom of sexual expression between consenting adults is a fundamental human right - whether the individual is lesbian, gay, heterosexual, bisexual, or trangendered. Now is the time to overturn the outdated 1980 "Delineation of Lesbian Rights" and re-affirm the rights of adults to engage in any safe, sane and consensual sexual expression that they so choose.


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S/M Policy Reform Statement:
WHEREAS, NOW does affirm each woman's right to control her own body and actualize her sexuality -- her fundamental right to be herself; [from the 1980 Delineation of Lesbian Rights]

WHEREAS, NOW does support the repeal of any laws which criminalize sexual activity between consenting adults in private (such laws are often referred to as consensual sodomy laws); [from the 1980 Delineation of Lesbian Rights]

WHEREAS, there is a large body of supporting evidence from psychiatrists, physicians, feminists, and Anti-Violence organizations that safe, sane and consensual sexual expression, including S/M, is not detrimental to a woman's mental or physical well-being, nor can it be considered violence or abuse in and of itself;

WHEREAS, the 1980 Deleneation of Lesbian Rights is erroneous in stating: "Sadomasochists seek to legitimize and provide a premeditated structure for violence. NOW opposes any repressive legislation concerning private consensual sexual activity between adults. Nevertheless, NOW opposes institutionalized violence as well as social structures which encourage or advocate the use of physical and psychological violence or domination among individuals. This opposition to violence precludes support or advocacy of sadomasochism as a feminist issue";

NOW THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that the National Organization for Women shall not oppose the rights of adults to engage in any safe, sane and consensual sexual expression they so choice, including S/M.

If you would like to show your support for the S/M Policy Reform Statement, please add your name to the growing list of supporters, and read what others have written.


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S/M Policy Reform Statement: Plan of Action
1. The S/M Policy Reform Statement needs support. Please submit testimony and evidence, such as: quotes from legal precedents and authors; and supporting statements from feminists, psychiatrists, physicians, and human rights organizations.

2. NOW members must work with their local or state chapters to present educational panels that S/M is not violence or degrading to women. This means: a) contact the head of the Lesbian/Bi-sexual Committee in the chapter; b) educate the leaders of the chapter using the supporting evidence; c) educate the members of the chapter by proposing and sponsoring a panel discussion.

3. Once there is sufficient chapter education, the S/M Policy Reform Project will take the statement to the Presidents Council of NOW to present the supporting evidence to the chapters' presidents. Then we will educate the general membership of NOW by proposing and sponsoring panel discussions on the national level at the NOW national convention.

Eventually, a resolution of the S/M Policy Reform Statement will be submitted to the membership, and voted on at a national convention.

imo one can very much be a true feminist and live a bdsm or D/s lifestyle. however personally, i cannot. i disagree w/a core feminist belief that a woman can be whatever she "chooses" to be. being a submissive is not something i chose, and my Master and i believe that the way we live is in line w/the natural order of things. no, feminists would not like me very much.

Iriadne said:

Ultimately I think that the ability to equate feminism with being a submissive depends on the level of feminism that you hold. A rabid feminist sees complete equality as a requirement not only for herself but for all women. An equality minded feminist wants equal opportunities to exist for men and women but acknowledges that there are some women who will choose not to take advantage of those opportunites. These are, in my view, two ends of a scale and there is a gigantic range in between them.

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I think being in a Southern US private religious women's university is going to be fairly likely to be surrounded by the attitude you experienced, feminist or not. It is not a judgement but a culture that is generations old and highly publicised for it's views and codes of behaviour. That being said, statements about rabid feminists which perhaps is the radical feminist faction of feminism are subject to every particular person's actual definition of equal.....they are all individuals and will vary on the degree to which they define equality, and as with many, are open to changing their viewpoint as I found with one of my lecturers, if they find someone who is capable of presentiong a strong enough argument to do so. Usually that requires doing more than presenting the usual questions they have heard before and doing research to present their own beliefs and the proof of why it still stands when they are presented with a counter argument.

Catalina

Marquis said:

I think the feminist movement wanted women to be whatever they want to be.

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I agree, I think submissiveness is a choice (and not just for women but men too). I submit because I want to , so in that is the freedom and choice for me. Which ultimately means I am in control also, where the bigger picture is concerned.

I guess this is where my confusion lies. The Feminist movement was so much about becoming the masters of our own fate , and being a submissive, our fates are sometimes in the hands of our Masters.

Miss Diva said:

I guess this is where my confusion lies. The Feminist movement was so much about becoming the masters of our own fate , and being a submissive, our fates are sometimes in the hands of our Masters.

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But the differing point is in previous times it was not by choice, nor was there an option if you didn't like it that way, nor were you going to be protected if your spouse abused you or raped you, nor could you own your own property,or be sexually liberated.....now you can choose to give up that control fully, partially, or not at all. In this sense you then are controlling your own fate even if you choose to give that control to another.

Catalina

ownedsubgal said:

imo one can very much be a true feminist and live a bdsm or D/s lifestyle. however personally, i cannot. i disagree w/a core feminist belief that a woman can be whatever she "chooses" to be. being a submissive is not something i chose, and my Master and i believe that the way we live is in line w/the natural order of things. no, feminists would not like me very much.

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What can't a woman be?

Marquis said:

What can't a woman be?

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A vasectomy patient?

Feminisim to me means that I choose how I want to live my feminity. What makes me happy. How am I fulfilled as a female. WELL, let me tell you. I have had jobs that put me in charge of others and I was not happy, I've been in leadership positions, I have forced myself since college to push myself out of my comfort zone. I hated it all. But, thats what society wants me to do. Be something I'm not. I will always be grateful for the women who have made it possible to vote hold a job, drive a car and have medical attention, go to school etc. However, I am a feminist, I am in control of my home, I let my Master know what is needed and He makes sure I get the things needed to run His home. ( This way He doesnt have to). I do lots of things just to survive pay the bills etc. does this make me a feminist? My Master is in charge because that is what makes us both happy. I kneel at his feet every day and wait for his loving touch on my head and I feel like crying for happiness. I have been in an abusive relationship and now I have found a lifestyle that completes me in a way that I never dreamed would ever be possible.

YOu can be feminist by voting, going to college learning how to help others and still be submissive to that one Special Person. The one that will take away all your worries and problems. I am happy to be at home trying to get a home business going. ( oops does that make me a feminist? No, just trying to improve our living standards). Be who you want to be. Hope this helps. This is a bit of a soap box for me. submissively slave c

a woman's place

Marquis said:

What can't a woman be?

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it's not about what a woman can or can't be, but rather what a woman is. as i said, Daddy and i believe in the natural order of things...that there's a logical and natural flow to life and living. and imo, the strong feminist movement in the '60s and 70s did a lot to take us even further from that natural flow. males and females are not the same...we are not intended to have interchangable roles, we are not meant to be equals. imo, Dominance and submission are, respectively, Masculine and feminine qualities. D/s as Daddy and i live it is simply a modern term for a way of life as old as time. female in ultimate submission to Male...it's not a choice for us, just the way it is and should be.

yes, a woman "can" be almost anything in our modern world...but should she??

I think there is social pressure for males to be more dominant and females to be more submissive, and I think a lot of people fall into the roles they think they're supposed to be playing. So what do we get? A bunch of bitches saying things like,

"Can't you even spank me right you fucking dog?"


It's rare that you'll find a woman that owns her dominant tendencies, but I see them left and right.

OSG, I think the degree to which you take your submission is very hot, but I strongly disagree with you about your choice being natural for females in general. I too, know what it feels like to be intrinsically psychosexual, but I don't expect others to share my state of being merely because we share gender. I've noticed I have more in common with Tops than bottoms for example, whether they be gay, straight, male or female.

Miss Diva said:

I mean how can one be a feminism and be a submissive.[/COLOR]

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I have been over this a million times in my head. I think it all boils down to how can one be a feminism and be sexaul, because in the end, it's all fun and games.

Feminism is based on equality.
If HE, has shown to be willingly dominated, then there is no issue with being submissive.

i don't like to describe myself as being a feminist, simply because of what the word has come to mean due to the influence of society. I'm just me. As a woman, i know i have the power to make my way in the world, just as i know i will make less money than a man for the same job. sorry, it's true. but outside of all that, the true power of feminity (or my feminity) is to release the hold of society and the 'rules' and embrace whatever I choose to be, in the bedroom or the office. I have a job where I am responsible for others lives. i save lives, i hold the hand of the dying, I embrace family members in their darkest hour, i celebrate life with them. I am a nurse. I have a bachelor's degree, a deep understanding of anatomy, psychology, physiology, etc. So i can go from one extreme to another. although i am new to the bdsm scene, so far i love my submissiveness and view it as an absolute power - the power to submit myself to another, and celebrate the sexual opposite of my everyday self. When I make life and death descions at work, when i come home I want to be told what to do, how to do it and get a good ol' spanking if i don't do it right. so imo - the two are seperate even as they are tied together. lets quit analyzing everything that we do, trying to decide - if i do this do i still fit into the feminist world where i am told i should be? just follow your heart and do what is right for you.

Sigh. I could get angry but I'm not going to.

I think the only time feminism and submission are in conflict is when everyone starts talking in absolutes. When people start putting people in clever little boxes and wrapping them up in neat little theories when the reality is that life, and gender roles especially are far more complex than a simple "all women should be submissive to men" or even a (rarer held view but still as dumb) "all men should be submissive to women". As far as I'm concerned, we are a collection of individuals as diverse and as vaired as life itself and there is no "should" about it. Feminism, though flawed was the greatest thing that ever happened to western women and we should be more greatful for the considerable sacrifices that were made by our predessors. Most of the things that make the modern women feel alienated and trapped today are because of things the feminists are campigning against, not for.

Not all women are submissive. Full stop . Nor should they be pressured to be.

Submission is a gift, not a prerequiste.

Most men i meet I wouldn't submit to if you paid me a million pounds, I give my submission to those who earn it, not on the basis of their genetics, but on their strength and beauty of character. (plus how wicked their mind is) _

CuriousJen, you just made it onto my map. Excellent post and I agree with every word.