Online and Real Life BDSM

I have seen and known many online dominants that have moved from online into RL without major issues. The key here is to be realistic in what you can expect. Online Dominance has a very different approach than RL but it is not less valid as a BDSM expression. The best thing an online dominant can do when he moves into RL is to go to a local group and attend their munches and workshops.

We RL people have a tendency to think of us as better than OL, yes there are some big jokes online, but I have also seen many big jokes that called themselves dominant in RL. Online is just another expression of BDSM and they deserve as much respect as Real lifers do.

Much of the interest and growth we have had in real life has to do with the explosive growth of online BDSM, both practitioners and resources. Without the Onliners we would not have BDSM Talk or BDSM Café both of which are an online expression of BDSM. Some of us think of ourselves as writers and write BDSM stories… well most of your readers will be Onliners.

The majority of the BDSM culture is online, there are forums, agendas, and complete communities that meet and keep in touch online. The first point of entry for many of the BDSM interested persons is online forums such as Literotica.

I welcome anyone who is interested in BDSM and wants to exchange ideas and experiences out of whatever side of BDSM they come.

Francisco.

I'm sorry to disagree Catilina.
I see this as 2 seperate entities.
True, RL BDSMers do communicate extensively online. It is part of real life. But comparing RL to OL is like comparing apples to oranges.

RL=BDSM
OL=Fantasy play

Just MHO.

navarre said:

I'm sorry to disagree Catilina.
I see this as 2 seperate entities.
True, RL BDSMers do communicate extensively online. It is part of real life. But comparing RL to OL is like comparing apples to oranges.

RL=BDSM
OL=Fantasy play

Just MHO.

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I don't think Francisco was saying they are the same, or comparing one against the other, just that they both have a legitimate place on a discussion board which discusses aspects and interests of BDSM or what ever label you prefer to place your flavour under. Many have experience in both areas, some have moved from OL to RL or RL to OL, and while the experiences often differ, in some areas more than others, they are still recognised forms of BDSM by many and have their value as such.

Catalina

I don't live a 24/7 bdsm lifestyle. I actually date men. I like living like I do.

Does that make my opinions here less valid than those of you who live it constantly?

navarre said:

I'm sorry to disagree Catilina.
I see this as 2 seperate entities.
True, RL BDSMers do communicate extensively online. It is part of real life. But comparing RL to OL is like comparing apples to oranges.

RL=BDSM
OL=Fantasy play

Just MHO.

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I would like to hope that you incorporate fantasy play in your RL. Next to that you are entitled to your opinion and disagree with Catalina. If you disagree with me that is something else of course.

In my RL experience I have learned many things, but the most important thing I learned was that BDSM is mostly a mental exercise, the mental aspect being a thousand times more important than the physical one. Onliners concentrate mostly on the mental aspect, to suddenly say that people who concentrate purely on the mental aspect of BDSM are not into BDSM is a very closed minded approach.

Yes there is a group that has silly games and live mostly in fantasy, but there is also a big group of Onliners who take BDSM very serious. I think that everyone has the right to express his or her opinion without being ridiculed or ganged up on (unless you want to be gangbanged of course that is).

It is not comparing apples with oranges, nor is it comparing the true and only BDSM with a fake mirror image. It is comparing valid but different expressions of BDSM. You can disagree with me I respect that, just as I would respect the opinion of an online serious BDSM practitioner.

Francisco.

Francisco,

Respectfully, I have to agree in part with Navarre. I do not invalidate those who practice online BDSM. I am not going to get into a discourse on the subject of what is more "real" or not "real". My point is this....

A person doing online BDSM has no basis from which to understand what kind of BDSM *I* am practicing. There is no common ground. As a person who lives a 24/7 lifestyle, there is no common ground between us. I am not saying that my lifestyle is better, Francisco, or more real. I am just saying there is no commonality.

Navarre's apples and oranges, if you will.

Living a relationship in fact, and living a relationship in cyberspace or on a mental plane are two entirely different things, neither less valid, neither less real, but both very, very different. I don't personally believe that they have a common ground.

You yourself should know how difficult 24/7 realtime relationships are. They take care, work, and give and take. It is my personal opinion that nothing in the online world really approaches the complexity of that bond.

*shrugs*

Oh, and on another note, the neverending argument regarding online vs realtime has been about the original intentions of Literotica BDSM and it's focus on skin-to-skin relationships. I personally have had issue, and have made no bones about my issues with the shifting focus of this board towards online relationships over the last year or so. I would prefer to see the board make a shift back towards a skin to skin focus, but frankly, I really don't see it happening.

~anelize

Hello Analize,

Being different is not less valid, living 24/7 is not the only expression of RL either or skin-to-skin. I have been many years in the lifestyle before I even went into a 24/7. 24/7 is actually only a very small fraction of the BDSM community. Most of the RL BDSM community actually thinks that 24/7 is not reality but a fantasy. Yes we who live 24/7 are different but the same can be said from a Professional FemmeDomme, or from those who only meet their partner on a irregular base.

Being different and having different opinions on the board actually makes it more interesting because it gives you other points to consider and to compare with. I celebrate differences since it creates a much more interesting an open society. Online BDSM practitioners are human beings that are interested in BDSM that to me is already enough to exchange ideas with them.

In the good old days before Online BDSM it was common practice to share your experiences with less experienced persons. Mentoring was a community task, what happened to those sentiments. I do not think that the board has been moving away from RL, in fact I would say that we have been very good in chasing away Onliners.

We are not all one uniform kind of BDSM, online BDSM is not the same as RL, but if anything can be said about BDSM it is that it has many different flavors. I believe in the right of Onliners to be part of this community and express their thoughts and opinion. I also believe it is time for the RL to get of their high horses and start taking people serious who do things differently. And what certainly needs to happen is to stop ridiculing the serious practitioners of online BDSM.

Francisco.

catalina_francisco said:

We are not all one uniform kind of BDSM, online BDSM is not the same as RL, but if anything can be said about BDSM it is that it has many different flavors. I believe in the right of Onliners to be part of this community and express their thoughts and opinion. I also believe it is time for the RL to get of their high horses and start taking people serious who do things differently. And what certainly needs to happen is to stop ridiculing the serious practitioners of online BDSM.

Francisco.

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I'm new around here and I know we haven't met, but I just wanted to let you know that I liked what you had to say here. As someone who's trying to learn all she can about the lifestyle, cutting out alternative methods and ideas is the last thing I want to be doing. It's nice to see I'm not the only one.

Thanks again,
~ Despina

As I have stated before on these boards, it's very sad that even the outcasts must make outcasts ...

Doms don't like Dommes ... or the r/t people don't like the online people ... or the 24/7 people don't like the non-24/7 people ... or the "subs" don't like the "slaves" ... and of course, all variations in reverse, as well as other variations that I missed. And unfortuantely, it only takes one or two people to make someone feel unwelcome and unwanted.

Personally, I have no problems with other people in whatever version of the lifestyle that they live ... as long as they are honest with themselves and others about how they live. The bottom who calls herself a slave is going to irk me (and yes, I've seen one, and she drives me up the damn wall - which is why I quit going to the munch group that she started). The "weekend warrior" who claims to be 24/7 is going to irk me. The 24/7 lifestyler who claims to be a weekend warrior is going to irk me. You get the picture, I'm sure. Now, people can always change their minds, but someone that we hear say that the lifestyle can be nothing more than a hobby, and then turn around and say that they are looking for 24/7 lifestyle (within 10 min of the first statement) ... that's gonna piss us off.

We live together 24/7, and - within reasonable limits (meaning that we don't keep ghosst chained and bound whenever we aren't using him - which seems to be some people's perception of 24/7) we live the lifestyle 24/7.

Because ghosst is on the road a lot - being a truck driver and all - we do some things over the phone and online (now that he has his computer back) ... but we don't consider it to be an online D/s relationship, because 90% of the active domination is done when he is home - he has standing rules that are in place when he is home and when he isn't, but that's about it, in general (we are working on that though ... and we are working on getting him a job that will get him home at least 3 nights a week instead of 3 nights a month).

With sylvan, it's a little different because we haven't spent as much skin to skin time together, but we have, and hopefully we will - and if he ends up not moving, then we will end the online portion as well.

For us, though, we see both as long distance rather than online relationships, because ghosst does live with us, even though he's on the road a lot, and sylvan is planning to move in with us, at which time there will be no online/phone/mail/whatever.

This does not mean that we don't respect online relationships - both of ours started out with chatting online, and there was some online D/s between us, but minimal. Our issues are mostly when we are treated as if we are living a fantasy (as Francisco said) because "24/7 can't exist" according to some, or when someone tries to tell us that they have the same exact relationship with their PYL/pyl that we have, even though they have never actually met face to face. I'm sorry, but there are dynamics that just aren't possible without looking someone in the eye ... online is a great place to learn - as we did - and it's a great place to get started and/or find release for fantasies that aren't getting fulfilled elsewhere ... but now that we have done r/t, we can't and won't go back. Online is for some people, but not for us. And as always, as long as people are honest with themselves and with us, we don't care which flavor they prefer.

Miss Karen

Thank you for a very good posting Miss Karen, I think you found the keyword respect.

Mutual respect between practitioners of BDSM whatever kind of BDSM they practice.

Francisco.

Geeez, by golly by gosh when I have the time I might bother responding more fully, but what I do see from some posters is the difficulty with understanding the word difference and feeling it means less than,( though it is repeatedly said not to) but of course, only when the person who is living different to them is someone else, not themselves. There are commonalities in online and RL, primarily that being in the mindset to start with. Many online subs have the same mindset as a RL sub. Yes, taking it to 24/7 RL is different, and is the way I prefer, but I can still converse with someone who has never been there, as well as someone who is in the stages of just hoping to have an experience of any kind....and know those conversations can hold common ground which both parties can relate to. For a case in point take our own....we met online, found we shared the same vision online, committed to each other online, became unofficially engaged online....then met.....and found it was all we had believed it to be and more so married 2 weeks later. Almost 3 years on we can honestly say it was the best thing either of us ever did in our lives. So if there is no comon ground, no way the twain can meet peacefully, how did this miracle happen?

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Geeez, when I have the time I might bother responding more fully, but what I do see from some posters is the difficulty with understanding the word difference and feeling it means less than,( though it is repeatedly said not to) but of course, only when the person who is living different to them is someone else, not themselves.

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It isn't that we have trouble with that, catalina, it is that we have seen so many others who seem to ...

We don't care what flavor others want - from vanilla bean (almost vanilla but not quite) to the extreme rum raisin, chunky monkey, or whatever else they are into ... as long as they don't begrudge us our chocolate and rocky road

Navarre,

I do not really see this as an apples to oranges type of deal at all. I will admit the scene was a bit more undergound back in the pre-internet days. Maybe that is the wrong way to explain it, to become involved in the scene back then was a bit more involved and took a certain amount of gumption. Don't want to date myself, but having to get the "Sandmutopia Guardian" at a news stand and stand in line while looking casual is a bit different than googling.

However, the current generation of people involved in BDSM probably got their start through google. So it can be said that nowadays most EVERYONE starts out as an OL practitioner, and some change to different things later on due to needs, comfort, or opportunity.

However, I would not state then that SOME of the apples MAY change into oranges, and by doing so they become better. They are just following a personal path or journey and it is a personal one, of which all should be judged equal rather than by the color of their fruit

The only thing in My opinion that makes realtime more or less valid is how the parties involved "feel" it.

catalina_francisco said:

The majority of the BDSM culture is online, there are forums, agendas, and complete communities that meet and keep in touch online. The first point of entry for many of the BDSM interested persons is online forums such as Literotica.

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I disagree that the bulk of our culture is online, if you look at this from a pansexual and diverse mindset.

You can't walk around lower manhattan without bumping into a guy in leather. They are not online, they are out, about, running round, and they are the scene. The only online BDSM the queer leatherfolk who semi-adopted me were doing and had time to do was informational surfing and setting up meetings locally in email.

I think that online is the easiest access point. I think online has completely revolutionized female sexuality -- the fact is, "normal" heterosexual middle class "nice" women never had access to so much sexual material and information before ---ever!!!

-- but a lot of the culture that did not get to Leather or D/s or whatever via online has a different developmental path and different traits than that which enters through online.

To me, the majority of BDSM'ers enter the scene through prodomme media, but look where I sit.

I met my boy through a munch, my personal slave as a phone session client (horrors!)

I entered the scene through reading a book and making a terrible but productively connected blind date in the back of a free weekly! All before I ever went online, where I did that weird fantasy chatroom, cross-country emotionally fucked up dance that a lot of people do, because I was 21, immature, isolated, and unhappy (no thanks again)

My views on the division between fantasy & real life are well known. I am engaged to & live with my Master however our lifestyle confines our BDSM to the bedroom, so it's more in line with ADR than a 24/7 thing I'd say. We did the usual thing, we dated, in person.

I don't consider this discussion board to be an online relationship & like Netzach I don't consider that the bulk of the culture is online either.

I'm aware that many people take their online stuff really seriously and I often wonder in how many other types of activities that this would be accepted as real or even take place. Someone has mentioned before a Veterans' forum & how online soldiers would be regarded. I'm active in a horse riding forum & I can just imagine the response should I mention my virtual win on my virtual dressage mount LOL. So why should it be that in order to be known as open minded & liberal in our views & tolerance, we are told that we have to believe in the fantasy too?

Online is convenient for meeting people, as letters once were. It's also an easy & lazy way to conduct a relationship. It's always going to be at your own convenience & if it doesn't work out the way you want it to ie fulfills the fantasy you personally have of the BDSM practices, you can turn it off without another thought. Please don't try to tell me that there's so much more to it because fact is you CAN turn it off whenever you choose to do so.

I'm not trying to offend anyone either, but I actually feel that I'm entitled to write my opinion here, just as Francisco has done in presenting his views to us all. Basically all readers will have their own opinions anyway & are free to agree or disagree as they see fit. I do feel that sometimes we are expected, in order to avoid healthy discussion of certain issues, to follow a particular idea. It does remind me of the Seinfeld "Gay, not that there's anything wrong with that" episode.

Re: Re: Online and Real Life BDSM

Netzach said:

I disagree that the bulk of our culture is online, if you look at this from a pansexual and diverse mindset.

You can't walk around lower manhattan without bumping into a guy in leather. They are not online, they are out, about, running round, and they are the scene. The only online BDSM the queer leatherfolk who semi-adopted me were doing and had time to do was informational surfing and setting up meetings locally in email.

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Lets take any other place except Manhattan and San Francisco in the states, would you still claim that you see queer leatherfolk running around?

Francisco.

They (we?) have a bar here. (Minneapolis) There are frequent fundraisers, bar nights, a calendar contest, a leather column with online syndication (Steve Lenius)

The GLBT Leather current does not strike me as so much smaller or less significant than the pan/hetero one -- and it's not as often online, to my knowledge. The fetish subculture, dress for pleasure, SM people who get into it from a dress-for-pleasure angle...is HUGE and growing, and usually populated with younger people who come to SM via fashion. Not all of them are shallow and don't know how to play.

I still find that dialoguing about the SM I do in real-time, or reading a tutorial on rope bondage, or kvetching about my health issues with a sub pal...these are all different issues and separate from "online BDSM."

I actually DO online BDSM, this is the irony. I use online as a training method, and I have clients who pay for remote Domination (who knew)

No, I do not see these relationships and exchanges as the same as my relationships in face time. I take them seriously, but they are, in fact very different and I would not call them equal.

The reality of present and future times is that online and virtual space is more and more entering our skin-to-skin lives. Soldiers, fighter plane pilots and tank drivers are all trained in virtual reality space, Planes and tanks are being constructed that can be remote managed through a computer terminal. There is even talk of having formula one races being driven remotely.

So yes internet is entering our life even if it is for now only as training media. Computer chips are built into everything. And yes a computer game does not equate reality but we are not talking here about a computer game. Is playing chess on the internet against a human opponent less real than playing it at home against your neighbour?

But you see that is really not the point we are talking about here, what we are talking is the inability of RL to respect OL. That RL is not OL that seems to me pretty clear. But we seem to have a movement which claims that if you do not conform to their way of BDSM it is not BDSM.

The problem I am having with this is simple, who is going to decide what real BDSM is and what is not. Are we going to turn ourselves all into neat heterosexual male dominated 24/7 or do we acknowledge that there are more possibilities, and what are we going to include in OL, and what are we going to include in RL?

That what is different is not equal, and equality is overrated. But that is not the issue.

Onliners have the same rights as everyone else to express their opinions and it is only normal civilised behaviour that you treat someone who takes so much pride and honour in what they are and do with respect. Many of us have started online, or have found partners online, do we now carry the online stigma, is anyone who has ever been online never going to progress to that heavenly place of real life BDSM? If you start out as a fake Onliner can you progress through to become Real Lifer or is the stigma of OL never going to be washed off, or can it be removed magically if you adopt a certain way of BDSM?

What I am asking for is respect from RL for those that take Online serious, I am saying that they have the same right as any of us RL. Yes they have a different experiences but so have many even in 24/7 BDSM. We have queers, pansexuals, leather, Internal enslavement folk, Jon Jacobs and his followers, we have D/s, TPE, APE and that is just in 24/7 BDSM.

Francisco.

I'm new. New to the BDSM boards here, new to my interest in BDSM, exploring what I like and what I don't like with my partner and without him (we have varying interests, and sometimes what I like is something he finds distasteful).

In my short time, one thing I have seen repeated over and over, on BDSM info boards and in threads here, is that on-line is far more about fantasy. E.g., "Unlike the stories on here, you can't spank someone with a sharp razor blade across her stomach and expect her to have no significant injuries."

I would worry, myself, about meeting someone on-line who presents himself as a Dom. It's far easier to cover up your faults on-line than in real life.

I don't doubt that some people are what they present themselves to be on the Net. Heck, people in the straight and BDSM worlds meet and fall in love on-line, and things turn out beautifully for them. However, many people in both worlds also find abusive bastards, liars, con artists, etc. on-line who they didn't expect when they met in real life. Even looking for someone to just be a "friend" has the same risks. You don't have to show who you really are on-line. You don't have to give your real name, your age, how you look, or anything else that in a real-life meeting would tip someone off to something wrong.

I guess I'd urge more caution about on-line relationships in general, whether submissive like me or dominant. I remember Netzach once talking about all the men who suddenly found that they were submissive when she revealed herself as dominant. Yes, it's funny, but think about it for a minute. These people were deliberately lying to manipulate her. Do you think there aren't more who'd do the same to you out there?

I don't want to see anyone here being misused by someone who claims to be an on-line anything, be it a "counselor" (as I see all the time on AOL) or a "friend" or a "dominant."

Shadowsdream said:

The only thing in My opinion that makes realtime more or less valid is how the parties involved "feel" it.

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And I think this is the essence of it too Shadowsdream...it is about how those involved feel and approach it. Sure you can switch off a computer when you want, if you want, but for many in RL you can choose to not follow orders or do tasks as directed, instead opting to cheat, shortcut, or just thumb your nose at the whole prospect when you choose and can get away with it because your Dominant is at work etc. Those people are likely to find they will act much the same in online and real life situations because they are not seriously involved in the mental aspects, just interersted in the thrill they can find in the moment.

And yes, both areas have differences and are different. I do not feel it is the same to have an online whipping or be given away online as it is to have it happen in the flesh and for real, but much of the emotional (not physical) reaction related to the events may mirror those of a RL event. I doubt many could legitimately argue the point of those aspects, especially if they have experienced it both online and in RL.

The point IMHO though is, for those seriously interested in BDSM, D/s, SM or whatever your taste, the foundations of the relationship as in mindset are just as likely to be the same or similar because it is a sexuality which adheres to a set of principles that then are interpreted in various ways by those involved but with the underlying principles and understanding remaining. And yes, before someone jumps up and says but my friend A is real time like me and our relationships are totally different, that is the same for everyone because no 2 relationships are going to be identical.

For example, I can see a lot of similarities between the relationship we have and the relationship ownedsubgal and her Master share, and I can also see similarities between sinnOcent 1 and her Master and our relationship, and yet all 3 relationships are very different in various aspects.....the same can be said for Bandit 58, sunfox, Esclava, and shy slave....all women who I share similarities and differences with in our respective relationships.....and likewise can see similarities between myself and women who are not in relationships at this moment such as A Desert Rose, Kajira Callista....the fact they are not in a relationship right now does not make their words and thoughts, their feelings and hopes any less or more valid than my own. And shock horror, I can also see many similarities between Netzach and myself in our mindset where SM and D/s are concerned and she is a ProDomme, not a slave!!...and I won't even begin talking about the men on this board who I feel I share a lot of similar thoughts, experiences and feelings with. I respect all those people and those differences do not rule out the similarities and the ability to share a communication of similar and dissimilar ideas and understandings, of talking about our own experiences and thoughts, our hopes and goals, of comparing all aspects in a non judgemental way, of learning from each other and presenting a whole picture of aspects which can positively complement each other.

Often the fact a person is online can present a new view which is valid but has not been seen by a RL person because the nature of the 2 relationships emphasise different points and use energy in different ways and areas. How often have those online given RL people ideas of how to communicate in their RL relationship simply because that is the area the onliner has necessarily a lot of experience in, and RL people given online people ideas of activities they might explore the prospect of doing because that is where their energy is concentrated? Do those who met online and grew into RL from there feel they now can forget where they began because while it was online it was not 'real', invalidate that same journey for others who have not reached the same point? That is where all discrimination starts......whites seeing other races as different so looking down on them and thinking them inferior, straights seeing gays as different so invalidating their right to their choice and experience, one religion believing it is the only true religion and condemning others....it is all about feeling difference must equate to superior and inferior which IMHO is borne of ignorance and fear and the inability to walk in another's shoes for fear they might just like them a little too much. I cannot share that thought process.

One may like to pretend there is nothing in common between apples and oranges, but I dare to differ. for one they are both fruit, they both grow on trees, they both can be juiced, they both are healthy, they both contain natural sugars, they both are used extensively in cooking, especially desserts and cakes....but yes, they also differ in shape, size, smell, taste, growing methods etc.......but it does not then mean one is a fruit and the other is a pretender of no worth, does it?

Catalina

The reason I don't respect some people around here is because I think they are full of shit. I think their posts are purely fictional. Certain posters operate more than one account and sometimes perform make-believe to put on a public show. There are always trolls. There are phony little frauds who are just here to try to shock people with talk of beastiality, rape and necrophilia. I am sick of drama queens with all of their ugly nude pictures and adolescent cries for attention. There are people who try to posture, vastly overstating their experience (either real or online) to seem experienced, yet their words over the course of weeks or months don't bear it out. For what reasons do people do all of the above? Perhaps they are using the public forums as an audition to locate a sympathetic one-on-one audience.

So with all due respect, to start by assuming that every post in this forum is a sincere attempt at communication with the general readership is very shaky. We all filter our self-perceptions, but there is a difference between not being fully self-aware and deliberately posting make believe. I can only attach significance to people who present themselves in a consistently honest manner...which sometimes means showing your warts. Who wants to suggest I be respectful to people who post fiction or just want attention without making a contribution? Maybe it is a sign of excessive "online-ness" that people's bullshit detectors are so out of kilter.

Ok, I respect it. I can respect the idea that people are communicating on a serious level with serious emotional ties and commitments. Sometimes.

But I definitely, definitely take umbrage if someone *equates* their relationship of virtual scening with what I lead, day and day out, with the scenes I've had, with my ongoing actual skin-to-skin practice. Call it chauvenistic, call it what you will.

You know, I lost a relationship with someone I loved more than I ever thought I could love anyone, because I am a fetishist and he's not. I came out. I lead a life of considerable risk. All of this to be who I am. I could have stayed behind my screen, maybe, but I didn't. I think I *have* done a kind of dues-paying, as arrogant as that might seem. I realize that people stay in the virtual for a whole host of reasons, but if I can't feel like making the leap took courage and was a tough thing to do and was perhaps worthy of recognition to a degree, then, shit...

I've even encountered the incredible attitude of "well we are more into the mental than the mere physical, so screw you, fetish player" from people who've never ventured from behind screens.

You do have a valid point about the collapsability of virtual and real worlds. It's possible that virtual BDSM *will* be the equivalent of face-time SM at some futuristic point.

But likewise, the "virtual soldiering" and "virtual dressage" comments merit adressing, I think, it's a good point as well.

I think whatever's going on online can be valid and serious and real. It's a tool, people can use it in ways sublime and ways stupid.

I also think there's a vast difference between using the communication tools of the century to encounter one another and mediate a relationship (on the phone I call my humiliation fiend names) and using them to create tandem fiction - a fine pasttime, but not actual scening by my standards (typing "now I put the pig-tail plug in your ass" in a chatroom to same)

I'm definitely not screamingly anti online. Nor against the things we do to mitigate the realities of long distance relationships. God knows, I'd be screwed without the unlimited long distance.

Kassiana said:

I remember Netzach once talking about all the men who suddenly found that they were submissive when she revealed herself as dominant. Yes, it's funny, but think about it for a minute. These people were deliberately lying to manipulate her. Do you think there aren't more who'd do the same to you out there?"

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LOL, oh half of these are RT at least half. The whole world suddenly becomes a switch when turned on enough, it seems. He'll I've done silly things over hot women.

Warrants repeating

catalina_francisco said:

Thank you for a very good posting Miss Karen, I think you found the keyword respect.

Mutual respect between practitioners of BDSM whatever kind of BDSM they practice.

Francisco.

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