How to know when its time to give up?

Some people are or grow to be fundamentally different and as such, incompatible. Personal happiness is key to everything. Children know when somehting isn't right, children will look at your relationship and use it to form opinions which will be the basis of their own relationships later. I'm not a strong advocate for staying together for childrens sake.

Yeah...usually I'm not either. My parents stayed together far too long for our sake and just look where I ended up! lol
Seriously, I understand. I stope and think that I don't want them to watch us and then grow up to be disfunctional adults. I don't want them to do what I did. But they love their father so much. He is a great dad, he goes to lengths for them that alot of fathers wouldn't. I just wish he was the same with me. It just kills me to know that I would be taking his children away from him, even if it was only for awhile. And I'm afraid that if I did, he would fight me for them. I would want to be fair and equal, I wouldn't want to drag them through that.

I guess I'll calm down and think a little clearer in a little while. Thank you for reading this.

kids are not stupid and can see when there parents are no longer happy with each other. even if they act like they don't. it is sometimes best to move on when you are argueing, not talking or even doning things together.

_Milky_Whites_ said:

Yeah...usually I'm not either. My parents stayed together far too long for our sake and just look where I ended up! lol
Seriously, I understand. I stope and think that I don't want them to watch us and then grow up to be disfunctional adults. I don't want them to do what I did. But they love their father so much. He is a great dad, he goes to lengths for them that alot of fathers wouldn't. I just wish he was the same with me. It just kills me to know that I would be taking his children away from him, even if it was only for awhile. And I'm afraid that if I did, he would fight me for them. I would want to be fair and equal, I wouldn't want to drag them through that.

I guess I'll calm down and think a little clearer in a little while. Thank you for reading this.

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What you are going through must be extraordinarily painful.

And it is already affecting several lives. So often we hear that divorce has such a terrible impact on children. But so does an atmosphere of anger or mistrust or whatever it is that is breaking the relationship apart. Children absorb the atmosphere in which they are raised. They take the example of their parents as the way one ought to live. And then they go on to lead their own lives according to those examples.

Think hard about what you are doing - not just about what you are contemplating but what you are doing now. Both of you.

I wish you well.

You have friends here who will listen. Lit is open 24 hours a day and you don't even have to brew a pot of coffee to get someone to listen.

lol...I'll brew you a pot anyhow, midwest, just for being there.

It's so hard to have kids and decide what is right for them, so hard to know if you are being a good parent.

Sometimes I feel so strong, I don't need anyone or anything. I can handle hubby and his BS, kids, college and work with no complaints. Then sometimes, like today, I just break. And thats when I need a shoulder. Thanks for the advice, it helps point the way when I can't see it.

_Milky_Whites_ said:

lol...I'll brew you a pot anyhow, midwest, just for being there.

It's so hard to have kids and decide what is right for them, so hard to know if you are being a good parent.

Sometimes I feel so strong, I don't need anyone or anything. I can handle hubby and his BS, kids, college and work with no complaints. Then sometimes, like today, I just break. And thats when I need a shoulder. Thanks for the advice, it helps point the way when I can't see it.

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Anytime.

I have sent my own bread out on the waters here.

Children are important but so are you and your husband. As one who 'lost the battle' may I suggest counselling? You married very young...it's understandable that you've both grown in the last 10 years...frankly, I would hope so...but if you've grown too far apart and are having trouble finding the way back into each other's arms perhaps some help would be useful. I think we all know that marriage won't be a smooth road...just like it's the joys and tribulation that both make life sweeter...but we often have trouble when our paths divurge trying to get back together.


As some one who has been where you are and did seek counselling...the answer to your question...how did I know when to give up?...it was in a counselling session...a little light went off...when I realized that even though we still loved each other our differences were indeed irreconcilable. Loved him enough to set him free of his responsibility to me and our children...to be the carefree spirit he wanted/needed to be.

I could ask that question myself

Edited after reading later posts.

I agree that sometimes you just can't do it anymore. I just never got to that point, and hope I never do.

Good luck!

_Milky_Whites_ said:

Yeah...usually I'm not either. My parents stayed together far too long for our sake and just look where I ended up! lol
Seriously, I understand. I stope and think that I don't want them to watch us and then grow up to be disfunctional adults. I don't want them to do what I did. But they love their father so much. He is a great dad, he goes to lengths for them that alot of fathers wouldn't. I just wish he was the same with me. It just kills me to know that I would be taking his children away from him, even if it was only for awhile. And I'm afraid that if I did, he would fight me for them. I would want to be fair and equal, I wouldn't want to drag them through that.

I guess I'll calm down and think a little clearer in a little while. Thank you for reading this.

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I read this thread and had to get up and walk away. I had to get some thoughts in order. Every word you typed sounds just like me, three or four years ago.

I have often said on this board that I have the utmost respect for my ex-husband. We don't always get along. But my respect for him is evident to anyone who knows me, and most of that respect is borne from the fact that he is one of the most awesome dads in the world.

That was what hurt so badly about leaving him. It wasn't that I wanted to save the marriage for the sake of the marriage...it wasn't that I felt like a failure, that I wondered what went wrong...it was those kids. How could I take them away from their father? Even now...today, in fact, was one...I have moments in which I sit down in darkness by myself and wonder what the hell I did by walking away, and if it was the right thing.

There is no easy answer. If you have grown to the point of asking yourself if you should leave, then the problems are serious enough to warrant it. I can imagine that without those children, you would have already left. As a mother, it is SO hard to know what the right thing is. And sometimes you know what the right thing is, but looking at those kids is enough to make you believe you can get through it, if you just try...just one more day.

I guess you know when it's time...when you realize the children are being affected by what is happening. Or when you realize how much you are changing, and that staying in a relationship without the things you need is setting an example that it's okay to live that way. Your children deserve happiness...they deserve to see that it can happen, in many different forms. YOUR happiness feeds theirs.

As a mother, it seemed so selfish to me. I berated myself for months on end, wondering why the hell I couldn't just be happy with what I had? I tried reasoning with myself to the point of being so starkly logical it was absurd. I tried bargaining with myself...if only I can stay for another year, then maybe he will be more attentive...maybe I need too much...maybe I ask for too much...it could be worse...it could be worse. That was the one that kept me there long after I should have walked away.

And now I know I made the right choice, but even now, I have moments of thinking I could have done more to change the course of that marriage.

A long ramble, I know...I guess the point is that if you feel it is time to leave, then it is. If you are seriously considering divorce, then it's time to go to every last option you have. Counseling. Both together and apart. Be open with your husband about the way you feel. Take every suggestion the counselors give and try to make it work. Give it your best shot so you don't have regrets later. Regrets are the heaviest thing you can ever have to carry.

Then, if you know in your heart that you cannot make it work, it's time to leave. Then you can look at your children and tell them, without a shadow of a doubt, that Mom and Dad tried hard to make it work. And that you will both be happier apart. And that they WILL be okay...because even though you are apart, they still have both parents. That is the most important thing in the end.



Good luck to you...

S.

My honest opinion goes like this. When you start asking yourself and others how you know when it is time to go....the time to go is at hand.

Sheath,

Your post put tears in my eyes. I've read some of your threads, some of your life hits home with me. I've thought that it was time for a couple of years now but I keep holding on. I keep trying harder. But he critisizes everything that I do. I started a new job and he's giving me grief because Im not home enough to care for things. He refuses to acknowlege that I am doing my best for this family, that I am working my ass off for them. I work, I go to school full time and I am still there every morning and afternoon to take the kids to school and pick them up. I am still there at night to put them in bed. I am still there at night when he goes to bed. I care for them, I wash their clothes and cook their meals. I wear myself out and he bitches about it. Thats not what I need. He bitches about the house, he bitches about his meals, he bitches about my job. He doesn't talk to me about things anymore. He doesn't care how my day has been. And god forbid that I hint that I might want sex. Not happening. He is too tired, he isn't in the mood....I can't expect him just to jump in the mood and put out. Those are the excuses. Some days I feel so lost, so worthless...you start to feel so ugly, so undesirable.
He wouldn't even consider counceling. He's a "man's man", he doesn't do that kind of thing. Backwoods Kentucky men don't see councelors, thats for sissies. So thats not an option. I don't have money or insurance, I don't see how I could pay for help. God knows that I need it though.

Thank you guys for letting me ramble and for helping. Lit is full of the most awesome crowd of people that I've had the pleasure of coming across. Thank you!!

Happiness is key. Not only to yourself, but to your children. Staying with this man won't fool the kids.

I can't speak to your particular situation, but I can speak about why I left a marriage (if that is what you want to call it) of twelve years, and two sons. It wasn't a happy marriage, I looked forward to going to work and stayed there as late as possible.

Home life wasn't the kind of hell you talk about with fights and arguments, it was mostly non-verbal. There was a tenseness in the air you could cut with a knife. We rarely spoke, she slept in the boy's room with the door barricaded at night. Why? Damned if I know, I never laid a hand on her without her permission, I never even gave her a hug without first asking if I could, so why she barricaded herself in the boys bedroom is beyond me. If I were a drinker or abusive I could understand it. But I don't drink and my sole vices consist of enjoyment of computer games and reading.

Near the end I was desperately unhappy, even thought that being dead would be better than being married to this woman. And yes, I was even somewhat ashamed because I had failed with my marriage. My parents didn't fail, my brother didn't fail, but I did.

One morning shortly after a trip to hospital a sudden thought occured to me.

"WHY CAN'T I BE SELFISH ENOUGH TO WANT TO BE HAPPY?"

Yes I wanted to be happy, that wasn't asking much was it? I wasn't going to get that at home however. So I worked up the courage and told my wife, "I'm planning on moving out by the end of the year, you will continue to recieve the same amount of money every week until then, so I suggest you think about getting a job."

Leaving her was like lifting a boulder off my shoulders. Leaving my sons was like tearing my heart into little pieces. I didn't want to leave them, they cried, I cried. Thier mother forced me to do it. If she had simply shown me a little kindness and simple human affection now and then I would have worshipped the ground she walked on. But that wasn't her way, or perhaps I was asking for something she was incapable of giving.

In any event I left, I was on a mission, a quest to find for myself what I felt I deserved, what I feel we all deserve. Not a sex bunny who would swallow or take it any way I wanted to give it. But a real life person that would want to be held and want to hold me. Someone I could talk with and laugh with, someone that wanted to be loved and would gladly accept the love I could give her and love in return.

Sooner or later it becomes too much. Sooner or later the situation at home reaches a point where you can't save it by counciling or any other method. Sooner or later you don't want to save it, you don't care if its saved, could care less about it. Sooner or later you come to a point where you suddenly stand up and say "What about me? Don't I deserve a slice of the pie?".

You have children, so you weigh their needs against your own and think they must come first. But many of us fail to recognize that staying together for the sake of the kids oft times harms them more than leaving would.

Search your soul, see if what you have now will make you happy. If you can't see that happening, pack up the kids and take them with you on your quest for happiness. The harm done from a divorce is far less than the harm done seeing Mommy and Daddy fighting, or never speaking to each other.

It's different for everyone. But don't use the kids as a reason just to stay together. In the end, that would be harder on them then separating.

I was with my first husband for 8 years - we also married young, had 2 children, and grew apart. I knew it was time to leave when the kids and I became the least important thing in his life. He worked on a farm, which requires very long hours, and if they were lucky, the kids would see him an hour a day. The man he worked for adored him, all I asked was that he take more time to be with his family, which his boss wouldn't have had a problem with. I lost! And decided it was time to move on.

In the end, it was the best decision I ever made. My children are happy and well adjusted (no matter how bored), and I re-married - to a wonderful man who worships the ground I walk on (although still not sure why), and am happier than I have ever been.

YOU have to decide how strong you are - what your breaking point is and stand by it. Then maybe you can find happiness again.

Hope I've been helpful.

I stayed for 23 years.....in the end it started affecting my health. I stayed for the kids, I didn't want to take them away from the security of their home and extended family. I existed instead of living, I hated sex (or so I thought) and we'd grown so far apart and I was so isolated (we lived in a farming area), the closest friends I had were online. Which is where I finally realised that what he was doing to me wasn't a normal way to live.

I can relate to living with the strong silent type.....so strong and silent that he never said he loved me, or showed me affection except when he wanted to fuck (which is what it was because I hated him to touch me)......I got sick of being taken for granted in the end, of being put down and used......it all just came to a head one day 2 years ago. I had no self esteem and had never known love.....and the hardest thing was leaving my daughter in his care, because she loved the farm and didn't want to leave it (she was 14). He's a good father but a lousy husband, and his attitude towards me now is very bitter and resentful.......but she knows I love her no matter what he says and even though I've moved to Australia now, we still talk on the phone and I'm hoping she can come visit at the end of the year.

I knew it was time to call it quits when I could feel my heart sink when he came home. The sound of his voice, which always seemed to be putdowns and complaints, would grate on my ears. When he touched me, I'd freeze and think oh no not again.....and I would be dry and he'd get impatient and just go for it and hurt me We were like strangers......there had to be more to life than this.......and there is, most definitely! 2 years later I'm so happy.....I still can't believe how lucky I am

Bobmi....I also think I stayed so long because of not wanting to be seen as a failure. I am the only one in my generation of cousins who has left their spouse. My parents have been married for close to 47 years. I remember my mother talking to a friend of hers about all her nieces and nephews, and my brother (who is happily married) and not once was my name mentioned. I was sitting right there, in the same room......hellooo Mum, what about me?? *sigh* She doesn't know how he used to treat me, I tried once to explain but she changed the subject so.....what can you do.....

slave to pain.....what is it with farmers My ex was the same.....on the farm all day, no time to take the kids anywhere or go on holiday together, he'd come home and expect me to switch on like a light.....it's a wonder the kids know who he is!

With what I've heard, it seems to me like you are just killing time until it is time to leave. I think it is best to do it before someone winds up getting hurt (emotionally). I was married for almost 15 years and when I think back, I should have ended it before kids came along. My wife had an affair when our son was 1 or 2 and I only worked things out with her for his sake. Later we moved to Germany (she is German) and I took on the role of house husband. We had a daughter 4 years ago and for the last 3 years of our marriage I started feeling unappreciated for what I did around the house and taken for granted so I withdrew from her and visa versa. This past Christmas I found out she was having another affair and kids or no that was the end. So now I am stuck in a country that isn't my own with no family or close friends because I couldn't bear being away from the kids and wish I had listened to my inner voice years ago and saved myself from a world of heartbreak. Maybe you are just having a bad time and a little thing made you snap but I think you owe it to yourself to think long and hard if you are staying together just for the sake of the kids or because you are still in love and holding out for better times. Either way, if you continue to feel like this it may be time to untie the knot before the real heartache begins.

this whole thread hits home in so many ways for me.
right now, i am going through the whole 'questioning' phase in my relationship of over 11 years.
do i still love this man?
do i want to stay here?
is hurting my kids by breaking up the family going to end up costing all of us in ways i have yet to discover?

this is my second long-term relationship. the first was much easier to leave because there were no children involved.
this time, it's a whole different ball-game.

this time, as well, there are many different factors involved -
my S/O developed bipolar ll a little over 5 years ago, and has become a very different person as a result of this illness.
in many ways, it has been equally as hard on both myself and the kids.

where before he was somewhat driven to work and achieve, now he's become a stay-at-home guy with little inclination to get back out into the workforce.
he's also become very selfish in his wants and needs - not so much with regard to me, but more so in regard to his own pleasure/leisure activities.
if he wants to spend 3 days in front of the computer playing games or whatever, he will.
if he wants to go do something without us around, he will - regardless of whether there are other plans involving the children that need to be changed. he doesn't even bother to ask.

this man, who i am confronted with every day, is soooooooooo very different to the one i fell in love with, that sometimes i find myself resenting his presence, let alone his illness and how it has changed him.

where in the 'book of life and love' does it say i have to keep loving someone the same way, regardless of whether they are the same?????

my love has changed a lot because of his spiral into his illness - i have gone from being passionately, wildly, unbelievably excited just to be in the same space as him, to being resentfull, miserable, and majorly PISSED OFF with him when we're in the same general area.

what i feel now is not love as it should be.
but where is the yardstick i should be measuring that by?

and yet - i watch him interact with the 3 kids who absolutely adore him, i see him definately pulling his weight around the home (much more so than any other spouse i've seen!), he doesn't treat me badly in any way, we never argue, there's no conflict - actually, that may be due to indifference on both our parts? - so i have to question whether leaving him is the right thing to do?

i wish i had at least some of the answers - for all of us who have been here.

WarriorQueen...reading your post made me realize thing that weighed heavily on my marriage. Although i do not have bipolar disorder (that I'm aware of), I have suffered for many years under depression. It was hard for me to be there for my spouse when i would spend all my strength just trying to fight my way through each day. I was and still am an excellent father for my children but I had nothing left over for her. I explained this to her and she told me I needed help but I was looking for her to help me make the first step which she never did. That made it all the much worse when we split because I felt she was abanoning me when I needed help the most. It is difficult living with someone who has gone through mental changes and doesn't want to do anything to improve the situation.

schatz....I'm so sorry. Going through a divorce is hard enough. I can only imagine being in a foreign country at the time. I wish you the best with it and don't forget that you do have friends here.

Warrior...I know what its like to watch someone with bipolar almost deteriorate in front of you. My mom has it and the last few years at home were hell for me. She became an entirely different person. In a case like that you would have every right to leave. Its very hard to live with such change.

Change was a big part of whats happened to us, but in different ways. My husband used to be fun, outgoing, he liked sex, he liked having friends over and having fun. Now he is uptight, extremely religious, conservative, and doesn't care for any of my friends. We are nothing the same.
And as some of you mentioned depression, I suffer from it. I have for at least 15 yrs. I have a strong family history of mental disease and had a very bad, fairly traumatic, childhood. These things resulted in a disfunctional me. But I deal with it pretty good without meds. I work hard, driving myself to exhaustion sometimes, to overcome all of that. I don't have time to feel bad if I'm always working. I'm sure that Ive not been an easy person to live with either.

Thanks to each of you. I do feel somewhat better and calmer today. A little more rational.

I think you've had some excellent responses to your question, and like Sheath I feel I must collect my thoughts to adquately respond.

The fear of failure drove me to stay in a suffocatingly and abusive relationship for far far longer than I ever should have. I bailed on my first marriage and remarried too quickly afterwards obviously without thinking things through. I was NOT going to be held for ridcule for my failure the 2nd time. I was determined to show my family that I wasn't a looser. I was so stupid.

My second husband simply sucked all the life from my soul until I was nothing but a brittle shell. I did for everyone --- tried soooo hard to be Super Woman --- and it was never good enough. I stayed nearly 15 years longer than I should have -- for the sake of the children -- and my mother's approval. Fifteen years of bitter unhappiness. What an idiot I was. My grown children have let me know in their own ways, how that dysfunction affected their lives, mental health and outlook. Had I to do it over again, I would have had the courage to cut ties sooner and raise healthier and happier children.

When did I finally decide to walk away? When I realized that nothing was EVER going to change. I was always going to feel as empty with him as I did. No amount of financial success, no trying harder here or there, no "if onlys" were going to change anything. The day I realized I didn't want to waste the rest of the days I was given feeling like that, was the day I gave myself permission to seek my own happiness. And the weight of the world was lifted from my shoulders.

My life in the four years since has been very very hard -- having to reenter with workforce with stale skills, dealing with much lower economic realities and life's problems that HE'd handled before. It hasn't been this golden rainbow at the end. There is no happy ending -- just a path down a calmer, quieter road for me. Inside me is peace and knowledge that I control my destiny (for good and bad). My children and I are forging new relationships based on honesty. The older ones understand and are more open with their feelings and friendship. The younger two resent me sometimes for messing their lives up, but I am focused on doing what I know is right...inside here. *points to heart* Hopefully they'll someday understand that. I hope they'll see by my example that we are all deserving of respect and love....and they won't ever "settle" for less in their lives like I did.

All the best to you as you work through this.

Is he willing to accept that he can change by getting help for the bi-polar? If he will try, can you stick by him long enough to see if it makes him a new man, or brings back something of the old one?

You may just be so totally burned out that nothing he could do would make a difference anymore.

But if his personality changed from getting the bi-polar treated, would you, without forcing yourself, take up with him and maybe fall in love again?

ReadyOne said:

Is he willing to accept that he can change by getting help for the bi-polar? If he will try, can you stick by him long enough to see if it makes him a new man, or brings back something of the old one?

You may just be so totally burned out that nothing he could do would make a difference anymore.

But if his personality changed from getting the bi-polar treated, would you, without forcing yourself, take up with him and maybe fall in love again?

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put it this way -
i'm pretty certain if i met him as he is today that i would NOT fall for him.

he's just so very different from that wonderful man i met a little over 11 years ago *sigh*

(sorry for hi-jacking your thread, milky whites)

What you don't say speaks very loud.

It's over.

PS: ditto, milkey whites

schatz said:

WarriorQueen...reading your post made me realize thing that weighed heavily on my marriage. Although i do not have bipolar disorder (that I'm aware of), I have suffered for many years under depression. It was hard for me to be there for my spouse when i would spend all my strength just trying to fight my way through each day. I was and still am an excellent father for my children but I had nothing left over for her. I explained this to her and she told me I needed help but I was looking for her to help me make the first step which she never did. That made it all the much worse when we split because I felt she was abanoning me when I needed help the most. It is difficult living with someone who has gone through mental changes and doesn't want to do anything to improve the situation.

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i am very active in an on-line support group for people with depression, and their partner's and families.....

the one issue that keeps coming up, is the lack of support for the partner of the person who is suffering depression.

often - and i have first-hand experience here - the partner is left sitting on the outside, with no access to management strategies to help them understand and cope with how the depression has altered the entire dynamic of the relationship/family.

there is no way we can help our ill partner, there is no control over any new direction that the marriage/relationship is taking, there is no support to help us get through any of the alterations taking place around us.

we are left [almost] completely in the dark, because we're not allowed to have access to the medical information, and depression being what it is, often our partner cannot - or WILL not - speak to us about the difficulties they're going through.

it is one of the hardest things to deal with in a relationship - especially if everything was going along absolutely brilliantly until the depression stepped into the equation and robbed us of our sanctuary. (i say sanctuary because for me, my relationship was my rock, my refuge, my stability).

and when all of that changes, how does a person stay in love with the new, strange person who once was their partner?
how do you transfer your affection and care, your lust and desire, your want and need, to a complete stranger?

nobody so far has been able to answer that question for me.
and believe me, i have been to absolutely everyone i can think of to try and find out what the hell i am supposed to be doing now!
the counsellors i have seen, the doctors, the psychiatrists, the other partners that have managed to stay in love, as well as the partners that have left and separated, the children of bipolar people........ EVERYONE.

and the only thing i get from that, is that apparently, it's my DUTY to stand by him for the long haul, because getting bipolar was not his fault!

how, exactly, is making me feel guilty for having the thoughts i'm having, going to help me in this situation?
and where the hell do i go from here?

*sigh* i am living with a stranger, i am no longer happy here, i am so tired of having yet another person to care for (his bipolar has made him like another child - now i have 4, instead of the 3 i actually gave birth to).

I want and need support here too - i did not have my children in order to end up looking after them myself. i entered into a partnership, yet now i am alone in my own home.

right now, i am so stressed (apparently) that i cannot think clearly any more.
five years of dealing with his illness have driven me to the ground.