The Credo of Fury: Why doesn't it always work?

I commented to my mother about the "Do not what is hateful" passage; she agreed with me that that was very well said, and probably better stated than the "do unto others" passage.

I personally do my best to "harm none". Partly because I'll admit to being a bit of a bitch, and I don't always do unto others properly. But there are a great many ways to harm someone, and it generally makes me think twice (or more!) before doing or saying something that may, in some way, be harmful to another.

This is just my two cents worth, YMMV, etcetra, etcetra, etcetra.

FurryFury said:

I was only quoting from a web site for that bit but a quick google search turned up the following:

Confucianism
"Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state."
Analects 12:2

"Try your best to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself, and you will find that this is the shortest way to benevolence."
Mencius VII.A.4

"Tsekung asked, "Is there one word that can serve as a principle of conduct for life?" Confucius replied, "It is the word shu--reciprocity: Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.""
Analects 15.23

I hope you like them.

Fury

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Thanks, Fury. It's been a long time since I've read the Analects. (Mencius doesn't necessarily count).

jadefirefly said:

I commented to my mother about the "Do not what is hateful" passage; she agreed with me that that was very well said, and probably better stated than the "do unto others" passage.

I personally do my best to "harm none". Partly because I'll admit to being a bit of a bitch, and I don't always do unto others properly. But there are a great many ways to harm someone, and it generally makes me think twice (or more!) before doing or saying something that may, in some way, be harmful to another.

This is just my two cents worth, YMMV, etcetra, etcetra, etcetra.

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Hi Jadefirefly!

It sounds like you try to be careful of others. I think that's important.

As for being a bit of a bitch, who isn't? No, I'm serious here. It's something we have to develop to survive damn it! Then people try to make us feel guilty for it but it can be a good thing at the right times. *c*

Fury

Purple Sage said:

Thanks, Fury. It's been a long time since I've read the Analects. (Mencius doesn't necessarily count).

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Anytime Purple Sage!

I know little about such things myself, I won't pretend otherwise. I have never studied or read the Analects.

Fury

The Guilt Principle:

Before deciding on a course of action I often ask myself this question; "If I do this or don't do that, what are the possible consequences of my actions on the people I love? Is there any possibility I will feel overwhelming guilt later?"

If the answer is yes, I won't do this thing which, usually, I dearly want to do. Or conversely I will force myself to do that thing, which I likely don't to do. I willingly admit, I fear being crushed by guilt later if I hurt a loved one when I could have prevented it by making the "right" choice.

Fury

Yeah, the Golden Rule is nice, but needs some work.

Mostly it's "do unto others as they would have you do unto them, unless they're really sick and it's illegal, in which case, try not to do anything around them at all."

And since people are so very different, doing unto them as I would have them do unto me can get weird. My husband is quiet and solitary and in many ways opposite of me. At first I was nurturing and "let's talk" and always together, thinking it was what he wanted because that's what I consider to be loving. Over time, even though he wouldn't express it, I did learn that the best course for him was lots of space, lots of silence and hands off (well, verbally, not physically) and he responds best to that, otherwise he feels smothered, coddled and disrespected. As if I were his mother, and not his mate. For instance, asking a casual "do you love me?" to me might be looking for silly reassurance. For him, it's questioning our foundation of love and upsets him. So we say "I love you" about a hundred times a day, and he calls me from work every day for an hour, he gets his unspoken and unquestioned love and I get my expressions of it. Even if he doesn't think he's that way because he doesn't want to be that way (sometimes you have to factor the denial into your emotional calculations), I figure it out and treat him the way I observe he enjoys being treated, a way that leaves him happier and in a better mood. I'd go nuts if he did this to me, so he's learned what I need in turn and even if it's foreign to each of us, it's what we do for each other out of love.

Trying to think like other people and provide them with what is best for them, based on my beliefs, their beliefs, and not too heavy on the moral judgments, is what I strive for, but most likely don't achieve.

I'm a truthful, frank, funny person.

I'm acquainted with lots of people that don't like truth or humor very much.

So I give them lots of space and smile and nod around them a lot.

I've learned that I'm not being two-faced or lying (although people may consider me to be that way) by my standards, I'm just trying to be respectful. There are still people that will always be critical of those who don't provide them with exactly what they want, things I won't do, which include always agreeing with someone, flattery, or something on that line.

I do tailor my behavior to each person, if I can. I love to talk but there are many, many people that won't hear more than a few quiet words from me. I love to know everything about people, but I rarely ask personal questions or give advice unless expressly invited.

I think of it also in this light: Say you're a missionary in a religion. Do you choose to enforce your religion on others out of fear and coercion because you feel superior to them, or do you choose to spread good works and good will in the name of a belief that brings you joy. I try to keep in mind we all have our own agendas, our own belief systems. Living by example and not forcing others to live my way in order to glorify it or me, is my chosen path.

"...people are really good at heart..."

Words written in her diary by a certain young woman who later died in Bergen-Belsen in 1945.

Of course, those words were writen *prior* to her family being turned in and carted off to a camp.

Yes, *most* people are *basically* good.

But there are ALOT of exceptions to that rule.

Mr. Mann said:

"...people are really good at heart..."

Words written in her diary by a certain young woman who later died in Bergen-Belsen in 1945.

Of course, those words were writen *prior* to her family being turned in and carted off to a camp.

Yes, *most* people are *basically* good.

But there are ALOT of exceptions to that rule.

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I don't think people are basically good or bad, they just basically are.

It's up to you to choose to trust, but only trust with what you can afford to lose and lose graciously. And to choose to mistrust, but mistrust only when it won't cost you your own soul or the things you want to embody to be the person you want to be.

Recidiva,

I generally agree. Perhaps it was inarticulate of me to say people are mostly good, as this does imply a value judgement. I agree that people just generally are people, capable of the entire range of human strengths and weaknesses, etc.

I do however make some rare exception... there are some people who best represent the extreme end of the spectrum.

I've really enjoyed your comments in this thread. I particularly enjoy your subtle turn of phrase.

quote: "Everyone is under the burden of humanity and all the ways a brain can go wrong and right."

I'm also with you on the "smile and nod" thing.

I think you are also very correct in making the (IMNSHO) crucially important and accurate distinction that trust *is* a choice.

While I agree that most people spend most of their time and energy avoiding things which would harm others (golden rule)... and that many "bad things" that people do are often as a result of thier humanity as opposed to conscious malice...

... I also must recognize that some people are capable of, and are driven to do, absolutely horrible things. Some people are not plagued by feelings of guilt or morality - and they look just like the rest of us.

I guess that is why the "Golden Rule" seems like more of a "Golden General Guideline" because there are exceptions that, while rare, carry great risk.

While the predators of the world are generally few and far between, they are capable of extraordinary harm.

It is good to follow the Golden Rule... but only as a matter of being kind, and never to a point of weakness.

Does that make sense?

I'm not against the Golden Rule. I am generally a hopeful and trustful person. As such, I tend to view others as being the same as me.

However, I must consciously realize that some people are not.

It is good to be polite. But then again, sometimes politeness can get you killed.

You know?

Good discussion here!

Mr. Mann said:

Recidiva,

I generally agree. Perhaps it was inarticulate of me to say people are mostly good, as this does imply a value judgement. I agree that people just generally are people, capable of the entire range of human strengths and weaknesses, etc.

I do however make some rare exception... there are some people who best represent the extreme end of the spectrum.

I've really enjoyed your comments in this thread. I particularly enjoy your subtle turn of phrase.

quote: "Everyone is under the burden of humanity and all the ways a brain can go wrong and right."

I'm also with you on the "smile and nod" thing.

I think you are also very correct in making the (IMNSHO) crucially important and accurate distinction that trust *is* a choice.

While I agree that most people spend most of their time and energy avoiding things which would harm others (golden rule)... and that many "bad things" that people do are often as a result of thier humanity as opposed to conscious malice...

... I also must recognize that some people are capable of, and are driven to do, absolutely horrible things. Some people are not plagued by feelings of guilt or morality - and they look just like the rest of us.

I guess that is why the "Golden Rule" seems like more of a "Golden General Guideline" because there are exceptions that, while rare, carry great risk.

While the predators of the world are generally few and far between, they are capable of extraordinary harm.

It is good to follow the Golden Rule... but only as a matter of being kind, and never to a point of weakness.

Does that make sense?

I'm not against the Golden Rule. I am generally a hopeful and trustful person. As such, I tend to view others as being the same as me.

However, I must consciously realize that some people are not.

It is good to be polite. But then again, sometimes politeness can get you killed.

You know?

Good discussion here!

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Thank you! I agree with you. Except where you say that predators are few and far between.

I guess I believe this because I'm an excellent liar and it takes an excellent liar to pick up all the signs in others. It's like being a good poker player and looking for tells. The subtle minor ways people can prey on others and on themselves, and do damage unknowingly out of ignorance of their own natures are incalculable.

I've come to the conclusion that I trust myself, and trust that I will survive being trusting. I'm not saying I trust anyone else. I've said that to people and they say it sounds very bleak, but to me it's completely freeing. However, when I was younger, I was a liar, a thief and a cheat. Now I will simply tell people honestly that I'm a very good liar and if I ever chose to lie to them, they'd never know it. Saying I'm totally honest would be...dishonest. But I also say I usually only lie to save a life or cover for someone else. Say someone has a secret and someone else asks me if I know about it. I'll lie without a blink to protect a confidence. It means I'm not ignorant of all the ways lying, stealing and cheating work on a mind and the signs of someone practicing these things.

I'm also sure I can't catch all the lies because some of them are so artfully well done that it's almost deserving of applause. Lying just for the sake of lying is pretty much a challenge and almost an addiction regarding how much you can get away with for some people. Kinda like emotional gambling.

So it takes lots and lots of hard work and vigilance to be even partially honest when you're aware of all the fun ways to lie, and most people don't bother to do it right. They never learn their tells or try to learn themselves well enough to be honest with themselves.

This unfortunately means that although I'm a good person by choice...if I decided to swing the other way again...oh hell, the damage I could do to psyches and economies.

So I consider that those around me have to be granted the right to have a completely hidden dark side, because that's how the best dark sides operate. It's usually hiding the dark side of yourself that leads to destructive habits. Having it out in the open keeps it somewhat under control, kinda like a bonfire for fun and warmth and not a wild fire to light the town up. My dark side has some installed track lighting and a sun roof. But then she doesn't get so lonely she has to kill somebody, I visit often.

Please note that I said predators are *generally* few and far between.

I believe the bulk of the Nigerian gross national product currently consists of a variation on the pigeon drop.

But, I think if you examine the sum total of most populations at most times, the number of predators who prey on others is the vast minority compared to the general population. However, that is not to say that predators of one form or degree are not so commonplace that we can't expect to run into them in our daily lives. Nor does it mean that people, who are not predators by nature or choice, are incapable of victimizing others given the right circumstances, motive, and opportunity.

BTW, being honest about dishonesty may also be a tactic of deception. A good deception will resemble the truth as closely as possible. Telling someone you are capable of being a liar in general gives the illusion of candor and confidence. It also allows a person to give themselves internal permssion to deceive, "Hey. I told them to look out for me. It is their own fault."

Can't cheat an honest man, and all that.

Mr. Mann said:

Please note that I said predators are *generally* few and far between.

I believe the bulk of the Nigerian gross national product currently consists of a variation on the pigeon drop.

But, I think if you examine the sum total of most populations at most times, the number of predators who prey on others is the vast minority compared to the general population. However, that is not to say that predators of one form or degree are not so commonplace that we can't expect to run into them in our daily lives. Nor does it mean that people, who are not predators by nature or choice, are incapable of victimizing others given the right circumstances, motive, and opportunity.

BTW, being honest about dishonesty may also be a tactic of deception. A good deception will resemble the truth as closely as possible. Telling someone you are capable of being a liar in general gives the illusion of candor and confidence. It also allows a person to give themselves internal permssion to deceive, "Hey. I told them to look out for me. It is their own fault."

Can't cheat an honest man, and all that.

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Oh hell, you can cheat honest men all the time.

They're not tricksy enough to think at all about all the awful ways people use emotion and leverage to hurt people for an ultimate painful payback or the slow parasitic drain.

Yes, I'll also tack on honesty being deceptive. There have been a few times that I've lied in the lifetime of my daughter, and later on I'll admit it as a lesson to her that you really, really won't have a clue when someone good at it lies. Not only won't you expect it, but a good liar chooses moments where there's absolutely no way to be found out, and your reputation is so good that if you are found out, it completely looks like an honest mistake and you're completely forgiven as you make fun of the incident and yourself...

But one of the reasons why I'm honest is because it's so unexpected and unusual, it's unique. My daughter's discovered this too, she thinks it's funny as hell. The funniest part is, that when you're really honest, half the time people think you're lying anyway because they expect it.

Somewhere, Machiavelli is smiling at us. (or smiling and nodding)

The unspoken "finish" to not being able to cheat an honest man is "..because there are no honest men."

Everyone lies every day and everybody wants something.

We lie to protect others feelings. We lie out of convenience. We lie to avoid embarassment.

We lie to ourselves.

We all want to be accepted, be liked, be loved, be rewarded. We want others to think well of us and we want to think well of ourselves.

We want to avoid pain and achieve pleasure.

No one every does anything that they don't want to do.

Dang... it sure is getting philosophical in here!

Mr. Mann said:

Somewhere, Machiavelli is smiling at us. (or smiling and nodding)

The unspoken "finish" to not being able to cheat an honest man is "..because there are no honest men."

Everyone lies every day and everybody wants something.

We lie to protect others feelings. We lie out of convenience. We lie to avoid embarassment.

We lie to ourselves.

We all want to be accepted, be liked, be loved, be rewarded. We want others to think well of us and we want to think well of ourselves.

We want to avoid pain and achieve pleasure.

No one every does anything that they don't want to do.

Dang... it sure is getting philosophical in here!

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Ultimately I think growth comes from not applying to others for your acceptance, likeability, love or reward. That's awfully dicey and it can so often be used against you.

Giving those things to yourself and also to others when you have bunches left over seems to be my best course.

I'm not a literal believer in karma, but I do think you help the odds in your favor when you're kind and hurt your chances when you're rude.

Many people can use rudeness and attitude as a defense system, but what exactly are you defending yourself from? Mostly your own judgments about other people made ahead of time so you can feel better about being rude and giving attitude.

I'm loving the great conversation going on here!

*hugs to all*

I too can lie well and was raised to do so. I don't generally bother telling people that. They don't need to know it. I tend to be excessively honest in the nicest possible way I can think to put things. However people who "hate to be lied to" and want "complete honesty" live in a fools paradise that in itself is a lie, IMO.

Hmm, there are no comments on my third entry so far. Ah well, perhaps in the fullness of time they will come. In the meantime, I'm loving this talking we are all doing!

Fury

Next one:

The world and all the people in it owe me nothing.

Fury

How about this for a credo?

"Fergus spake these words and he said this shall be my creed whereby shall I live my life as it were a shining example of virtue and excellence well worthy to be enshrined in heaven as a model for all those who are wise to follow. My creed shall into three parts, like Gaul, be divided. Firstly, I shall constrain myself to mind my own business. Secondly, I shall endeavor at all times and in all places to keep my nose clean by the most expedient possible means. Thirdly and finally, I shall always exercise the utmost care to keep my hands to myself." Taken from Bored of the Rings

raven2 said:

How about this for a credo?

"Fergus spake these words and he said this shall be my creed whereby shall I live my life as it were a shining example of virtue and excellence well worthy to be enshrined in heaven as a model for all those who are wise to follow. My creed shall into three parts, like Gaul, be divided. Firstly, I shall constrain myself to mind my own business. Secondly, I shall endeavor at all times and in all places to keep my nose clean by the most expedient possible means. Thirdly and finally, I shall always exercise the utmost care to keep my hands to myself." Taken from Bored of the Rings

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Poor Fergus.

I don't aspire to do any of that.

Fury

FurryFury said:

Poor Fergus.

I don't aspire to do any of that.

Fury

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That's ok, he was a dwarf.

raven2 said:

That's ok, he was a dwarf.

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Hmm, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Fury

FurryFury said:

Hmm, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

Fury

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Just different outlooks. Guess myhumor isn't going over too well. Sorry.

raven2 said:

Just different outlooks. Guess myhumor isn't going over too well. Sorry.

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No problem hon, I'm kind of sick and it just didn't make sense to me. It could be the drugs.

Fury

FurryFury said:

No problem hon, I'm kind of sick and it just didn't make sense to me. It could be the drugs.

Fury

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K....

raven2 said:

K....

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I love the ravens on your av and pic at your profile by the way.

Fury

FurryFury said:

I love the ravens on your av and pic at your profile by the way.

Fury

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TY....*smiles*

raven2 said:

TY....*smiles*

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YW, Sugah!

Fury