The Myth Of National Identity.

But, isn't the search for a national identity part of Canada's identity? I don't mean to be glib, but since the very first days of confederation - the question has been asked, what is it that makes up a Canadian? It was a problem they had to overcome during WW1 - when they tried to decide how best to recruit soldiers - and at the time it was decided that we were British, and so men came to the defense of the Crown. It's been the same question ever since. And how could it not? We stand in the shadow of the Roman Empire. What is there for us to be, that America isn't already?

Pierre Burton spent a lifeitme searching for the Canadian Identity - and he came up with a few points - some things that define us as a people.

We are defined by our distance. The sheer space between us has defined Canada - from our lead in telecommunications, to that longest highway, the sort of distance that led Bell to invent the telephone, and Marconi to come here to test his wireless. The space between us has, in fact, brought us together.

We are defined by our geography. The Canadian Shield, Rocky Mountains, the Arctic, Pacific, Atlantic... We are tied to, and in opposition against our geography. The land, and the fight to survive on it has defined Canada for longer than Canada has existed.

We are defined by our diversity. In the same way space brings us together, so do our differences. Canada has long been a country of diversity - not just racial, but in regional as well. The strength Canadians perceive, and the pride we take in our multi-culturalism (the mosaic, not the melting pot) brings us together.

We are defined by our history. While not a celebrated fact, it still exists in a form of almost inherited identity. The very way Canada was forged - a Democracy that did not grow up from the grass roots, but was instead dispensed from on high, like a rain - affects us still. We accept great authority from both the law and the government, because in Canada's youth, that acceptance of authority kept us safe. We accept greater government involvment, because Canada was a colony, and did not fight against that colonialism. Our history - even the history that we not know or be taught about - still informs our national identity.


Canada is not just a country defined by 'Not being America' - we do have significant and deep cultural roots, but like any true roots, they are so ingrained that to go looking for them is like looking for water in a cloud - you can't see it, because it's everywhere.

But as a Canadian, ask yourself what it is about your country that you gives you pride - and accept that the reason it does so is because your national identity is buried in your heritage and history and informing your values today.

Plus we love the homos.

SweetBrie said:

I always get told to stay far away because I'm bad luck.

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I couldn't care less if my team wins or loses, Getting Lucky is Getting Lucky.

breakwall said:

It's interesting how we cling to our national icons. We had an engineer come over from Scandanavia a few months ago, and he was met by a rep and shown around and given a taste of what Canada has to offer.
Later I was sitting with him during a meeting and I asked him what he had seen since he had been here.

He told me he had been taken to a place that serves coffee(which he doesn't drink), a place that makes great hamburgers (which he detests), a rather nice waterfall (he lives about ten minutes from some breathtaking fjords), and to a big city where he was taken to...Chinatown.
I could understand why he was a bit confused as to how Canadians define themselves.

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Haha! I suppose the United States, Canada, and to a lesser extent Australia, and New Zealand have a somewhat different reality to them than does Europe or Asia or Africa. The US and Canada are immigrant nations, they are founded on the idea of integrating different cultures and having somewhat flexible identities within a larger identity (it doesn't work quite as people like to think of it, I tend to see a melting pot more so than a multicultural society, whatever my personal preferences). Hence, the identities are quite different than the identity of Denmark as a country.

breakwall said:

Yeah, so I was in the woods thinking too much and I began to wonder...

It seems that the things which define us as a nation, whatever nation that may be, are becoming absorbed and overrun by international trends.

Canadians define themselves by hockey and beer. But we keep losing our NHL franchises like Winnipeg and Quebec City to places like Nashville and Tampa Bay. And look down the bar at any pub in the country and you'll see more Bud and Coors labels on the bottles than Canadian and Blue.

And snap a picture in any urban area in any city in the world and you can find two coke ads, a McDonalds and a Sony billboard.

Are we losing touch with our national identities? And is that a bad thing?

Maybe in the new Global Reality, the concept of national identity is antiquated and does more harm than good. Maybe it fosters elitism, an us versus them mentality that has fueled so much tension and destruction in our past.

Douglas Coupland once wrote sarcastically that he loved Europe because "All their malls had different stores."

Is it important to have a national identity?

Or should I go back to the woods?

...maybe this should be a poll.

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Damn good thread break. It ties in with my old "hyphenated-American" thread.

Globalization is causing all sorts of unrest and upheavals. And many cultures/nations are losing their identity. There are many that should lose their identity. We here in the states are suffering in the same way mainly due to our schools and the horse shit called multi-culturalism they're dishing out.

But what I find most interesting are those nations that have assimilated the outward trappings of a multitude of cultures and yet have managed to retain their own unique culture and identity. The Japanese are masters of this and the Chinese are showing signs of being equally adept.

What is it they have that so many other nations don't, or if they do are losing?

I think it's a sense of history and pride in that history. They put no effort into tearing themselves down. They seem to understand that bad things happen and that they have been responsible for those bad things happening from time to time. But they prefer to focus on the higher aspects of their culture. A national philosophy that trancends beer, hockey, Mickey D's, or the latest offering from Micheal Moore.

Can they survive globalization? I think the Japanese will. I have the same feelings with regard to the Chinese. I think the Indians will as well. They're old cultures and they seem to know the difference between a hamburger and a national persona.

Ishmael

breakwall said:

There are a few. They drink beer like it's going to be taken away from them and they swear a blue streak on bad calls.

Also, on special nights, they wear the panties with the team logo on them, which means you will get laid. This is called "Foreplay".

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Nice.

Sometimes I think I'm missing something being an American hockey fan, I really do.

SweetBrie said:

There are guys who want sex during a sporting event?

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As long as I can still see the tv.

Pedal-Johnny said:

Canada is not just a country defined by 'Not being America' - we do have significant and deep cultural roots, but like any true roots, they are so ingrained that to go looking for them is like looking for water in a cloud - you can't see it, because it's everywhere.

But as a Canadian, ask yourself what it is about your country that you gives you pride - and accept that the reason it does so is because your national identity is buried in your heritage and history and informing your values today.

Plus we love the homos.

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Being Canadian, or being American, or being Latvian, is still a process of setting oneself apart from everyone else.

The problem is, that no matter how different we want to be from everyone else, there is a creeping plague that is making us more and more the same. We all watch the same commercials on television, we all wear t-shirts instead of togas or saris or robes, we all know the sound of a telephone ringing, or the start-up notes of a Microsoft program, or which company is signified by the swoosh.

So, is national identity just another marketing tool of government and corporation? Certainly many Americans define their nationality not by who they are but by the commercials they see during the Superbowl, and the videos they watch on TNN.

One of the most quizzical moments I ever experienced was sitting in a bar in Toronto when an "I Am Canadian" beer commercial came on the tv. People cheered. They cheered a commercial.

BBWetKitty said:

I think of natural beauty when I think of Canada...

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I think of...

• an old lady throwing a tire through the window of a hardware store
• A giant with a chicken in a bag on the wall, who are frequently visited by a giraffe
• a suspicious looking middle aged man, who lives with a little androgynous puppet-boy and his puppet-dog
• curling
• Don Cherry pronouncing the word "organization."

and of course, the themesong to The Edison Twins.

Ishmael said:

Damn good thread break. It ties in with my old "hyphenated-American" thread.

Globalization is causing all sorts of unrest and upheavals. And many cultures/nations are losing their identity. There are many that should lose their identity. We here in the states are suffering in the same way mainly due to our schools and the horse shit called multi-culturalism they're dishing out.

But what I find most interesting are those nations that have assimilated the outward trappings of a multitude of cultures and yet have managed to retain their own unique culture and identity. The Japanese are masters of this and the Chinese are showing signs of being equally adept.

What is it they have that so many other nations don't, or if they do are losing?

I think it's a sense of history and pride in that history. They put no effort into tearing themselves down. They seem to understand that bad things happen and that they have been responsible for those bad things happening from time to time. But they prefer to focus on the higher aspects of their culture. A national philosophy that trancends beer, hockey, Mickey D's, or the latest offering from Micheal Moore.

Can they survive globalization? I think the Japanese will. I have the same feelings with regard to the Chinese. I think the Indians will as well. They're old cultures and they seem to know the difference between a hamburger and a national persona.

Ishmael

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this is why i read your posts.

Ishmael said:

Can they survive globalization? I think the Japanese will. I have the same feelings with regard to the Chinese. I think the Indians will as well. They're old cultures and they seem to know the difference between a hamburger and a national persona.

Ishmael

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It DOES seem that older cultures are really good at incorporating the new realities while retaining the old traditions. Japan is remarkably good at this. They may have one of the most accelerated work ethics on the planet, and in fact, it is their work ethic that is literally driving the surge to the future.
And yet they feel no paradox at all in the fact that they are a nation that still upholds the concept of meditation, of meticulous traditionalism.

I sat through a tea ceremony with a guy who was selling routers capable of handling millions of emails a day. Here is a man who's job it is to go as fast as physics will allow, who thinks in massive amounts of information squeezed into microscopic amounts of space pushed at mind-boggling speeds in incomprehensibly minute spans of time. Meanwhile, it takes him forty-five minutes to pour a cup of tea.

breakwall said:

One of the most quizzical moments I ever experienced was sitting in a bar in Toronto when an "I Am Canadian" beer commercial came on the tv. People cheered. They cheered a commercial.

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Fosters. Australian for beer.

I find it odd that nations define themselves by the beer they drink.

breakwall said:

Yeah, so I was in the woods thinking too much and I began to wonder...

It seems that the things which define us as a nation, whatever nation that may be, are becoming absorbed and overrun by international trends.

Canadians define themselves by hockey and beer. But we keep losing our NHL franchises like Winnipeg and Quebec City to places like Nashville and Tampa Bay. And look down the bar at any pub in the country and you'll see more Bud and Coors labels on the bottles than Canadian and Blue.

And snap a picture in any urban area in any city in the world and you can find two coke ads, a McDonalds and a Sony billboard.

Are we losing touch with our national identities? And is that a bad thing?

Maybe in the new Global Reality, the concept of national identity is antiquated and does more harm than good. Maybe it fosters elitism, an us versus them mentality that has fueled so much tension and destruction in our past.

Douglas Coupland once wrote sarcastically that he loved Europe because "All their malls had different stores."

Is it important to have a national identity?

Or should I go back to the woods?

...maybe this should be a poll.

Click to expand...

Thanks the heavens above for 'serious stuff'!!!!!!! Welcome Back!

Brinnie said:

NO...etc. ​

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Yes, I see you. Hi.

McKenna said:

Fosters. Australian for beer.

I find it odd that nations define themselves by the beer they drink.

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they are accents of a common language.

historically they would have reflected the flavor of local grains and hops.

and local preferences.

though i'll be damned if i can figure out who ever preferred jax beer.

LoisLane said:

Thanks the heavens above for 'serious stuff'!!!!!!! Welcome Back!

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Yeah, I knew you'd appreciate it.
Thanks.

breakwall said:

Yeah, I knew you'd appreciate it.
Thanks.

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If you only knew... *does quadruple flips*

breakwall said:

It DOES seem that older cultures are really good at incorporating the new realities while retaining the old traditions. Japan is remarkably good at this. They may have one of the most accelerated work ethics on the planet, and in fact, it is their work ethic that is literally driving the surge to the future.
And yet they feel no paradox at all in the fact that they are a nation that still upholds the concept of meditation, of meticulous traditionalism.

I sat through a tea ceremony with a guy who was selling routers capable of handling millions of emails a day. Here is a man who's job it is to go as fast as physics will allow, who thinks in massive amounts of information squeezed into microscopic amounts of space pushed at mind-boggling speeds in incomprehensibly minute spans of time. Meanwhile, it takes him forty-five minutes to pour a cup of tea.

Click to expand...

I was doing some consulting for Mitsubishi a few years ago and a trip to Japan was required. My first work day there my hosts ordered lunch in. In came huge bags of Mickey D's. I can tell you that a Big Mac is a Big Mac. No matter where you order it from. My hosts were very pleased that they could 'honor' me with my native food (Like I eat Big Mac's all the time).

Later that day I went to dinner with the president of the company and I ordered shashimi. He was impressed with that and even more so when I forwent the fork and used chopsticks. We were drinking adult beverages (saki, with the head waitress pouring every drop without being asked) and I relayed to him that I didn't travel thousands of miles to eat that which I could get at home.

He told me that Japan was becoming a nation that ate more beef and I was going to have to suffer through at least one 'steak' lunch during the coming week so he could treat his employees. All of this exchange through an interpreter. (Actually, he understood English very well. It was the protocol that had to be observed though.)

You're point is well taken though. They have extraordinary patience. And the reason your friend was able to negotiate what appears to be a dichotomy was that the engineering that made that router possible is the same attention to detail required in that tea ceremony.

Ishmael

Hooper_X said:

I think of...

• an old lady throwing a tire through the window of a hardware store
• A giant with a chicken in a bag on the wall, who are frequently visited by a giraffe
• a suspicious looking middle aged man, who lives with a little androgynous puppet-boy and his puppet-dog
• curling
• Don Cherry pronouncing the word "organization."

and of course, the themesong to The Edison Twins.

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It's funny. I think of a lot of the same things. The Friendly Giant always struck me as a bit of a think premise for a kid's show, although I thought the tiny furniture was pretty cool.

And I found Mr. Dressup a LOT less condescending than Mr. Rogers. Plus Mr. Dressup could draw, and Mr. Rogers could...well, put on running shoes...

But when I think of the defining Canadian Item, I think of Canadian Tire Money. I just don't think people outside of Canada really get the concept of CT Money, or even the concept of Canadian Tire.

breakwall said:

It's funny. I think of a lot of the same things. The Friendly Giant always struck me as a bit of a think premise for a kid's show, although I thought the tiny furniture was pretty cool.

And I found Mr. Dressup a LOT less condescending than Mr. Rogers. Plus Mr. Dressup could draw, and Mr. Rogers could...well, put on running shoes...

But when I think of the defining Canadian Item, I think of Canadian Tire Money. I just don't think people outside of Canada really get the concept of CT Money, or even the concept of Canadian Tire.

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Let's not forget all the National Film Board classics- The Big Snit, Shyness, The Cat Came Back, The Log Driver's Waltz, The Sweater and so many more.

Ishmael said:

I was doing some consulting for Mitsubishi a few years ago and a trip to Japan was required. My first work day there my hosts ordered lunch in. In came huge bags of Mickey D's. I can tell you that a Big Mac is a Big Mac. No matter where you order it from. My hosts were very pleased that they could 'honor' me with my native food (Like I eat Big Mac's all the time).

Later that day I went to dinner with the president of the company and I ordered shashimi. He was impressed with that and even more so when I forwent the fork and used chopsticks. We were drinking adult beverages (saki, with the head waitress pouring every drop without being asked) and I relayed to him that I didn't travel thousands of miles to eat that which I could get at home.

He told me that Japan was becoming a nation that ate more beef and I was going to have to suffer through at least one 'steak' lunch during the coming week so he could treat his employees. All of this exchange through an interpreter. (Actually, he understood English very well. It was the protocol that had to be observed though.)

You're point is well taken though. They have extraordinary patience. And the reason your friend was able to negotiate what appears to be a dichotomy was that the engineering that made that router possible is the same attention to detail required in that tea ceremony.

Ishmael

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I always love going to the southern US. I was in Missouri a year ago and one evening I forewent the usual "let's go to Appleby's" supper and drove out of town. I ended up in this mom and pop place that reminded me of Mel's Diner. I told the waitress I was from Canada and she said she would order me up, and I quote, "A meal that will make your heart stop."

She almost succeeded. These people deep fry EVERYTHING. I had hushpuppies, which as far as I can tell is deep fried fat fried in fat. But it was GOOOOD. I ate everything. I could feel my heart slowing down. By the time I left I was sleepy and full and saying Y'all, and Shore 'nuff.

Excellent thread breakwall. I hope your time in the woods was enjoyable.

I'm sitting here longing for the good olde days... I hear my parents telling us what their childhood and early married years were like. I hear me telling my nieces and nephews the same.

One day at a client's I was filling some ice cube trays. Two little girls looked and asked what I was doing. They didn't know how to make ice cubes! Why should they I thought, ice is something that comes from the whole in the freezer.

From reading the posts here I feel sure we will each fight to keep some of that olde tyme life. But feeling isn't going to make it happen. I cannot stand the fact that no matter where one goes on this planet you can get a BigMac (a few exceptions but...).

Maybe the US isn't old enough to know better, maybe Canada too, I don't know. But I don't want to find out and I don't want to wake up some morning with a 'dot com' etched on my forehead.

breakwall said:

I always love going to the southern US. I was in Missouri a year ago and one evening I forewent the usual "let's go to Appleby's" supper and drove out of town. I ended up in this mom and pop place that reminded me of Mel's Diner. I told the waitress I was from Canada and she said she would order me up, and I quote, "A meal that will make your heart stop."

She almost succeeded. These people deep fry EVERYTHING. I had hushpuppies, which as far as I can tell is deep fried fat fried in fat. But it was GOOOOD. I ate everything. I could feel my heart slowing down. By the time I left I was sleepy and full and saying Y'all, and Shore 'nuff.

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If you ever get this far south I'll take you out for conch fritters.

Back to another point you brought up earlier. It appears to me that not all older cultures have the 'staying' power. The Europeans are doing a remarkable job of destroying theirs. There are enclaves of the old culture in the countryside, but the large urban areas retain their culture only in the context of architecture.

I hope the food made up for the piss we call beer.

Ishmael

I've never defined Canada as "hockey and beer". Canada, to me, is about nature, peace, and multiculturalism. Sorry, but it is.

breakwall said:

But when I think of the defining Canadian Item, I think of Canadian Tire Money. I just don't think people outside of Canada really get the concept of CT Money, or even the concept of Canadian Tire.

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I'm not Canadian, but I've been hip to Canadian Tire Money for years. Two things define Canada for me, from the outside looking in of course, Ian Hanomansing and Macs convience store. Ian Hanomansing would never be the main network anchor in the United States. No way, no how. When I was a kid I was amazed that the Chunkies (chocolate squares) in Macs Milk weren't individually wrapped (as though Canadians trusted each other not to do something disgusting with the unwrapped candy). It just blew my mind.
Addendum: I don't drink beer, so I have no personal Canadian beer reference. However, my older brother used to be in a polka/rock band called Joe Michaelewicz and The Bradors... named for Molson Brador.