Punishment

I admit that I'm a tad lazy. I checked the library, but couldn't find anything on this, and I did a search which turned up 500 threads which I found was too much for looking through. If someone remembers this topic being discussed, please tell me, if possible add the link.

On to my question.
I've been talking to someone online and we've discussed punishment and reasons for it. Now I'm not looking for different kinds of punishments. Rather I'd like to learn more about reasons for punishing. Is punishment used for training or rather to maintain a certain level of training? Is it used for every tiny thing that the PYL doesn't like, or sparingly for only major offences?
Do you have rules that could be termed laws in your relationship that are enforced with punishment?
Do you believe punishment to be necessary for a D/s relationship?

If you want me to elaborate more, explain what I mean, please feel free to ask.

It's always an interesting discussion. Here is the library link you were looking for...was listed under discipline so dont feel bad. I look forward to seeing where this thread goes and will likely be back when I have more time.

Catalina

A lot of people think that punishment is a sign of a "bad" submissive or some such bullshit, so I rarely talk about my own punishments or discipline. I'll humor you though <g>

Punishment and discipline are a big part of my relationship and always have been. Her expectations have grown a lot since I have become her slave, so the instances of punishment are fewer and farer between since I pay much closer attention to what she expects now than I may have in the beginning, but I am also more likely to be punished for seemingly mild transgressions if they are things I have been trained to know better on or rules she knows I understand and know to follow.

Punishment is used in our relationship as a method of training and continued discipline, mostly, and also for a release. There are times when I allow feelings or issues to build up and affect my behaviour; those moments often result in a punishment because not only do I know better, but I have means available to me to avoid getting into that state. I'm human, though, and I make mistakes and lose sight of things sometimes. Punishment puts me back in my place and back in touch with my submission.

Just this morning I confessed to a few instances of failing to wear my seatbelt. I hate wearing the damn thing and if I had my way, never would, but she requires it because she expects her property to remain safe. The confession will likely earn a punishment because I do know better and don't have any good excuse for my failure. In order for us to deal with it and move on, a punishment is the best way. It's more a ritual than anything, a way for her to make her displeasure known and a way for me to atone for my behaviour. Without the punishment it feels like issues are just left hanging in the air and that doesn't work for us.

I'm punished for various things...failure to abide by her expectations, forgetting to address her properly (not every single time...she'll let it slide a few times expecting me to correct myself. It's only when I don't take that initiative to correct what should be an ingrained habit that I'll get punished for it.), doing something that she deems unsafe or damaging to her property (not taking care of myself correctly, making rash and unwise decisions). Things of that nature.

The last punishment I received was quite some time ago, and was for allowing something that was bothering me to remain pent up until it was affecting my service to her, instead of going to her and talking about it right away. The punishment was a hairbrush spanking and kneeling time holding the brush. The punishment itself isn't what changes or alters my behaviour, it's the disappointment on her part that affects me. As I said, the physical punishment is really just a ritual. I usually can't take punishments very well even when normally I can take pain quite well. It changes drastically when disappointment is involved and is much harder to take.

Some standing rules I have are to address her properly (no Ma'am, yes Ma'am), my ass is to be lubed at all times when with her (I have a HARD time remembering this one), I am not allowed to touch myself or orgasm without direct permission. No one is allowed to bite me or fist me but her. My collar is not to be removed without her permission. I am not allowed to smoke. 2 drink limit. Cunt shaved clean at all times.

Just a few examples, there are more. Failure to abide by these things may result in punishment because she has taken the time to create these rules, there are reasons for them, and she expects them. I have been trained to obey them. Failure to do so is a sign of disrespect for her wishes and her care. Thus...punishment.

Ma'am sums this all up often into "Obedience, respect, gratitude". My "laws", so to speak.

I don't believe punishment is necessary to D/s relationships. I do believe punishment works well for us and is a valuable part of our D/s relationship.

Thank you, seri, for your long explanation. It makes sense in a way I had not thought on before.
If you allow another question: When you say that there are D/s relationships that work without punishments, but that this is not for you, did you discuss this before entering into your relationship? How did you find out that this is the way it works for you?

If I'm too nosey, please forgive me and just ignore my questions.

catalina_francisco said:

It's always an interesting discussion. Here is the library link you were looking for...was listed under discipline so dont feel bad. I look forward to seeing where this thread goes and will likely be back when I have more time.

Catalina

Click to expand...

Thank you, Catalina. I could have thought about that on my own
I'll go through the threads when I have a little more time.

chris9 said:

Thank you, seri, for your long explanation. It makes sense in a way I had not thought on before.
If you allow another question: When you say that there are D/s relationships that work without punishments, but that this is not for you, did you discuss this before entering into your relationship? How did you find out that this is the way it works for you?

If I'm too nosey, please forgive me and just ignore my questions.

Click to expand...

Not nosey at all, I wouldn't answer if I didn't welcome comments or questions.

With all my relationships it has pretty much been something my partners just knew about me and I about them. I'll use my current relationship for an example; we met through a spanking group in which we shared many mutual friendships with the people involved. Spanking as punishment was a common interest for everyone involved pretty much, and was something we all talked about and shared our needs/experiences with through the newsgroup and at parties. So it was just something that was a known shared interest for us.

Lets say that HADN'T been the case though...it is something I would for sure have talked about or shared my need for in advance. It IS a need for me...I would not be happy without that outlet and would have a tough time releasing guilt without the ritual of punishment. I would feel like every mistake I made was a much bigger failure or issue than it was. That's just how my personality works.

How I found out this works for me...pretty much the same way I found out I was kinky. I have ALWAYS had a fascination with authority figures and "punishment". I remember when I was younger and Top Gun came out, there are two scenes where Maverick and Goose are being 'lectured' or told off by authority figures. I would watch those scenes over and over.

So it started out once I discovered spanking and kink as a fetish, so to speak, something I got off on...but it was always roleplay, the disappointment wasn't real, so it was just a huge turn on. So I explored that by playing with people casually and roleplaying disciplinary scenes. That was alright, but it didn't really offer the permanent security that I craved in a relationship that involved discipline/punishment.

Once I was involved in a real relationship, I realized that my need for punishment was actually a security issue. Someone caring enough about me to punish and correct my behaviour is a big security for me. I feel safe under that kind of control. When I was a kid I got away with EVERYTHING because I was the "poor deaf girl". I needed the guidence and security of discipline then and didn't get it. I've never been one to act out for attention, ever, but I always secretely craved accountability. I would beat myself up mentally for every little mistake I made rather than learning to "learn from it" and move on. As an adult, I found that missing need was fullfilled by being involved in a D/s relationship where I was held responsible for my behaviour and actions.

Edited to add...I don't enjoy punishments in the relationship I am in now. I hate to disappoint and it's tough to know that I have, but it happens. I didn't want to give the impression I ENJOY it in the way I used to early on, as there is a big difference between roleplaying and reality. Now I get that same thrill I used to get from "punishment" roleplays through submission instead. I find it is much more satisfying and thrilling than roleplay ever was.

Do you have rules that could be termed laws in your relationship that are enforced with punishment?

No.

Do you believe punishment to be necessary for a D/s relationship?

No

I think that punishment is something that should be used sparingly.

I look at punishment as correction for willful disobedience.
I have never had a slave disobey Me in this manner.
I would not tolerate willful disboedience with a part-time submissive. I would banish him.

If my slave makes a mistake I correct it. I have not had to correct a slave of mine more than once.

Since I can use discipline (corporal punishment) anytime I care to, I do not have to lie in wait for a mistake. I like to keep things simple.

Eb

Thanks again, seri, for your response to my questions.

Ebonyfire said:

Do you have rules that could be termed laws in your relationship that are enforced with punishment?

No.

Do you believe punishment to be necessary for a D/s relationship?

No

I think that punishment is something that should be used sparingly.

I look at punishment as correction for willful disobedience.
I have never had a slave disobey Me in this manner.
I would not tolerate willful disboedience with a part-time submissive. I would banish him.

If my slave makes a mistake I correct it. I have not had to correct a slave of mine more than once.

Click to expand...

Correcting a mistake. How do you do this? And wouldn't it be possible to say that this correction IS punishment?

Since I can use discipline (corporal punishment) anytime I care to, I do not have to lie in wait for a mistake. I like to keep things simple.

Eb

Click to expand...

I don't get that sentence. When you say you can use discipline (corporal punishment) anytime you care to, do you actually mean administering pain whenever you want to? I understand punishment as something that happens after mistakes/disobedience, not because the PYL just feels like punishing, and this statement sound a bit like 'playing' punishment to get the SM.
It's possible I have misunderstood you, and I don't mean to be rude or offend or anything, I just want to get clear what you're saying.

edited to add: I just found a quote I thought I remembered reading by you, Ebonyfire, from this thread:

As a Domme, I have a different take on this subject. I never use punishment. When I take on a sub, I spend a lot of time and effort training him to serve Me. It is a long negotiation period.

So, I do not need to punish. Whatever I do, I do because it pleases Me. And My sub likes to please Me. If he makes a mistake, I correct him, but other than that, I play with him because he is my toy. If I inflict pain, it is because it pleases me, if I deny his orgasm, that pleases me too. If I use a technique that could be used for discipline, that is my choice. If heis worshipping my body, he knows itis his job, and he knows if he does a good job, I may reward him, nt I will reward him. It is this uncertainty, that sometimes fules his desires even more.

I do not force compliance. If a sub disobeys me, he is dismissed permanently. I do not tolerate topping from the bottom. So there is on need to punish.

Ebony

Click to expand...

I always though punishment is used as a way of training, the negative reinforcement part of it. So I'm wondering how you train without punishment (or the warning with it) involved.

chris9 said:

Correcting a mistake. How do you do this? And wouldn't it be possible to say that this correction IS punishment?

Click to expand...

No correcting a mistake is correcting a mistake. Correction does not have to be punitive.

I always though punishment is used as a way of training, the negative reinforcement part of it. So I'm wondering how you train without punishment (or the warning with it) involved.

Click to expand...

I do not know what quote you are talking about. You will never see a quote by me about training anyone using punishment.

I have been a professional corporate trainer for many years (back in the day), and I assure you that punishment or negative reinforcement is not a good training tool.

I am a service dominant, and my subs/slaves are service oriented. I teach them to do things the way I want.

For example, My slave serves me coffee, and he has to put the correct amount of milk and sugar in it. If he makes a mistake I correct him. I do that once. If I have to do it again (which btw, does not happen) I might decide to whack him one and tell him to do it again. Or I might just tell him to do it again, and again until it is perfect.

My goal is not to play games, but to get a cup of coffee the way I like it.

Eb

chris9 said:

edited to add: I just found a quote I thought I remembered reading by you, Ebonyfire, from this thread

Click to expand...

See? If you read what I said, I said I do not punish. I do not have too. I am very consistent in my habits, lol.

Eb

chris9 said:

I don't get that sentence. When you say you can use discipline (corporal punishment) anytime you care to, do you actually mean administering pain whenever you want to?

Click to expand...

I think what I said is pretty clear. If you do not understand it , oh well.

Eb

chris9 said:

When you say you can use discipline (corporal punishment) anytime you care to, do you actually mean administering pain whenever you want to? I understand punishment as something that happens after mistakes/disobedience, not because the PYL just feels like punishing, and this statement sound a bit like 'playing' punishment to get the SM.
It's possible I have misunderstood you, and I don't mean to be rude or offend or anything, I just want to get clear what you're saying.

Click to expand...

ahhh, the miscommunication of terminology.

I consider punishment any sort of pain play, personally, but i know that's not how everyone would describe it. some people say discipline, some people use the specific term for the play they're inflicting. i say punishment.

This is what I mean by Punishment

Definitions of punishment on the Web:

the act of punishing
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

In society, punishment is the practice of imposing something unpleasant on a wrongdoer. Most often, criminals are punished by fines or prison. Children are also punished by their parents, guardians, or teachers.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment

Presentation of an aversive event or removal of a positive event following a response which decreases the frequency of that response.
www.dphilpotlaw.com/html/glossary.html

Punishment is a term from Psychological Learning Theory that has a precise meaning; it refers to something that causes a behavior to lessen in intensity. There is nothing that is intrinsically punishing. A thing is called punishing if, when it is applied, it results in the reduction of behavior that you want to reduce.
depression.about.com/library/glossary/blglossaryindexp.htm

Get it?

Eb

Discipline

Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.

Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.
A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.
A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.
Punishment intended to correct or train.
A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.
A branch of knowledge or teaching.

Discipline can be positive or negative.

Corporal punishment ( something that hurts) can be positive or negative also within a D/s context.

Use the word that floats your boat.


Eb

Ebonyfire said:

No correcting a mistake is correcting a mistake. Correction does not have to be punitive.




I do not know what quote you are talking about. You will never see a quote by me about training anyone using punishment.

I have been a professional corporate trainer for many years (back in the day), and I assure you that punishment or negative reinforcement is not a good training tool.

I am a service dominant, and my subs/slaves are service oriented. I teach them to do things the way I want.

For example, My slave serves me coffee, and he has to put the correct amount of milk and sugar in it. If he makes a mistake I correct him. I do that once. If I have to do it again (which btw, does not happen) I might decide to whack him one and tell him to do it again. Or I might just tell him to do it again, and again until it is perfect.

My goal is not to play games, but to get a cup of coffee the way I like it.

Eb

Click to expand...

Thank you, this I get. I never had to teach/train/educate anyone really, so I don't really know what methods can be used. And correction has a certain punitive ring in my ear, so I got confused. Thanks for explaining.

chris9 said:

Thank you, this I get. I never had to teach/train/educate anyone really, so I don't really know what methods can be used. And correction has a certain punitive ring in my ear, so I got confused. Thanks for explaining.

Click to expand...

The the context of D/s, something that is punitive or negative to one person is positive or pleasant to another.

If a sub/slave is a masochist, then pain (use the label you like) is most likely to be considered positive reinforcement.

If a sub/slave is not a masochist, then pain may likely be considered punishment.

Either way it works.

Eb

Chicklet said:

ahhh, the miscommunication of terminology.

I consider punishment any sort of pain play, personally, but i know that's not how everyone would describe it. some people say discipline, some people use the specific term for the play they're inflicting. i say punishment.

Click to expand...

When you use the term punishment for any pain play, then how do you (personally) call it what's used to modify your behaviour, to show you that what you did was bad, if you have that part in your relationship?

Ebonyfire said:

The the context of D/s, something that is punitive or negative to one person is positive or pleasant to another.

If a sub/slave is a masochist, then pain (use the label you like) is most likely to be considered positive reinforcement.

If a sub/slave is not a masochist, then pain may likely be considered punishment.

Either way it works.

Eb

Click to expand...

Or in the case of serijules, it can be both depending on the circumstances.

I've seen lots of threads here that basically consisted of 'give me ideas for punishment my disobedient pyl'. I never really thought about the meaning that punishment has or doesn't have in a D/s relationship. In stories it was an element involved, often in silly ways. Both your and serijules examples have given me a little insight and more to think on.

chris9 said:

Or in the case of serijules, it can be both depending on the circumstances.

I've seen lots of threads here that basically consisted of 'give me ideas for punishment my disobedient pyl'. I never really thought about the meaning that punishment has or doesn't have in a D/s relationship. In stories it was an element involved, often in silly ways. Both your and serijules examples have given me a little insight and more to think on.

Click to expand...

To me disobedience is not to be tolerated. My slave knows what process he has to go through to get permission to do all kinds of things. So to disobey is a serious offense. My slave wears my collar and he knows how I feel about disobedience.

Now the part-times submissives I have look at things differently. they are not collared and they do not take the relationship as seriously as slave does. So I make sure that they know that if they step over a certain boundary, they are history.

Eb

I managed to read a couple of the threads in the library that Catalina was so kind to link, because I was stupid about finding it, and I'm slowly getting to some understanding. I have more reading and more thinking to do, and then some discussion to see if I really got it.
But first, I have a night of sleeping to do, so good night everyone, and thanks to those that already shared their views on punishment.

Every action has it's consequences

If "she" knows I am displeased... that could be
considered punishment ...

S & M need not be confused with punishment or D/s
if someone is into recieving pain than it would
not be an effective punishment would it ...

I remember in either "Little Men" or Little Women"
the youngin would did wrong had to spank the parent
and it was the worse punishment they could get

EB made several vaild points that as a "training tool"
positive reinforment is best ....

I have come/cum accross submissives who
for whatever reason could not accept pain
unless they at lest pertented they had been bad

catalina_francisco said:

It's always an interesting discussion. Here is the library link you were looking for...was listed under discipline so dont feel bad. I look forward to seeing where this thread goes and will likely be back when I have more time.

Catalina

Click to expand...

Who is our librarian now?

Richard49 said:

Who is our librarian now?

Click to expand...

s'lara

Catalina

Punishment in relationships is not for everyone. A lot of people I know would never thrive with that kind of interaction, whereas I need it and it works for me. It is a personal thing, for sure. There is no right or wrong way.

Life happens, emotions happen, mistakes happen, and for us, punishment works, largely because both of us have roots in disciplinary spanking interests and we make that work within our other roles as well. Make no mistake though, the inclusion of punishment or discipline in our relationship does not reflect negatively on my status as her slave. We just have a different dynamic that works for us.

Many people also seem to be under the impression that a physical punishment would not work for a masochist. I never quite understand why people assume that. As I said in an earlier reply, it isn't the physical part of the punishment that impacts me the most, or even that hurts the most...it is knowing I have disappointed her. It is the desire to prevent that from happening again that changes my behaviour...not the spanking or whatever. The spanking is just a ritual. The disappointment is what I try to avoid. I can take a lot of pain and enjoy it very very much, but give it to me in a punishment situation and it hurts in a way I'll never enjoy.

serijules said:

Punishment in relationships is not for everyone. A lot of people I know would never thrive with that kind of interaction, whereas I need it and it works for me. It is a personal thing, for sure. There is no right or wrong way.

Life happens, emotions happen, mistakes happen, and for us, punishment works, largely because both of us have roots in disciplinary spanking interests and we make that work within our other roles as well. Make no mistake though, the inclusion of punishment or discipline in our relationship does not reflect negatively on my status as her slave. We just have a different dynamic that works for us.

Many people also seem to be under the impression that a physical punishment would not work for a masochist. I never quite understand why people assume that. As I said in an earlier reply, it isn't the physical part of the punishment that impacts me the most, or even that hurts the most...it is knowing I have disappointed her. It is the desire to prevent that from happening again that changes my behaviour...not the spanking or whatever. The spanking is just a ritual. The disappointment is what I try to avoid. I can take a lot of pain and enjoy it very very much, but give it to me in a punishment situation and it hurts in a way I'll never enjoy.

Click to expand...

There is good pain and there is bad pain. A spanking during sex - tons of fun. A spanking for being bad - OUCH! It's not like pain is always fun, if that was true I'd spend my days banging my head on the wall.

graceanne said:

There is good pain and there is bad pain. A spanking during sex - tons of fun. A spanking for being bad - OUCH! It's not like pain is always fun, if that was true I'd spend my days banging my head on the wall.

Click to expand...

a spanking followed by corner time
now that can make a submissive think