Selena_Kitt
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M-R-O-W-R... !
Feminization of America?
- Thread starter Pure
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M-R-O-W-R... !
BlackShanglan
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elsol said:
Perhaps you should stop administering "atomic wedgies" to them?
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BlackShanglan said:
LMAO!
rosco rathbone
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Halo_n_horns
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Ok. I'm calling in sick tomorrow to read everything that's happened in this thread since I left it last night ...
... O-Fuck it. You're right. I'm wrong. Moving on.
... O-Fuck it. You're right. I'm wrong. Moving on.
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Halo_n_horns said:Ok. I'm calling in sick tomorrow to read everything that's happened in this thread since I left it last night ...
... O-Fuck it. You're right. I'm wrong. Moving on.
Well, you're no fun.
Sounds like you're just gonna take your ball and go home.
Halo_n_horns
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Better now then after it gets feminized.sweetsubsarahh said:Well, you're no fun.
Sounds like you're just gonna take your ball and go home.
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Halo_n_horns said:Better now than after it gets feminized.
Pure
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Once again. (hi, rr!)
In his routine Bill M said something like
Have you seen those new books called 'Shared Fantasies'? The man and the woman are supposed to get off on them, together. There's your 'feminization'--the man is supposed to get off by the woman's fantasies. Supposedly they have the same fantasies. (Sarcastically) How would this 'shared' fantasy go?
"The princess saw the white knight approaching on his horse. He went to her. He found her so beautiful, he swept her up in his arms, held her… and came on her face."
Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true. It is the proper way, and it is how men see things. But if he doesn't see things that way, well…. he could if he wasn't so uncivilized. If he wasn't such a dimwit.
In his routine Bill M said something like
Have you seen those new books called 'Shared Fantasies'? The man and the woman are supposed to get off on them, together. There's your 'feminization'--the man is supposed to get off by the woman's fantasies. Supposedly they have the same fantasies. (Sarcastically) How would this 'shared' fantasy go?
"The princess saw the white knight approaching on his horse. He went to her. He found her so beautiful, he swept her up in his arms, held her… and came on her face."
Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true. It is the proper way, and it is how men see things. But if he doesn't see things that way, well…. he could if he wasn't so uncivilized. If he wasn't such a dimwit.
Selena_Kitt
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Edited to add: "Bill Maher's statement as reconstructed by Pure"
Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true. It is the proper way, and it is how men see things. But if he doesn't see things that way, well…. he could if he wasn't so uncivilized. If he wasn't such a dimwit.
gosh, Pure... you're fond of lighter fluid when you BBQ, aren't you?
ok, so do men and women have the same fantasies? It's a good question... !
Should we all compare fantasies and see?
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rosco rathbone
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"Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true."
Did Pure say this???????
It is definitely true--to some extent. There's a continuum, of course. At one point I believed that the twain would never meet; but I've changed my thinking. There are women whose fantasies dovetail perfectly with mine. However, to get to the point of accepting myself and others like me, I had do some major self-deprogramming and rid myself of many of the dogmas that came with my upbringing. It amuses me to call that upbringing "efeeminization", but that's largely just irony. My mother-given ability to see things from a women's point of view and to take women's outlook seriously is a very important and valuable part of my self; I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think it has made me far more effective in my dealings with the enemy than men of my father's generation.
Did Pure say this???????
It is definitely true--to some extent. There's a continuum, of course. At one point I believed that the twain would never meet; but I've changed my thinking. There are women whose fantasies dovetail perfectly with mine. However, to get to the point of accepting myself and others like me, I had do some major self-deprogramming and rid myself of many of the dogmas that came with my upbringing. It amuses me to call that upbringing "efeeminization", but that's largely just irony. My mother-given ability to see things from a women's point of view and to take women's outlook seriously is a very important and valuable part of my self; I wouldn't trade it for anything. I think it has made me far more effective in my dealings with the enemy than men of my father's generation.
Pure
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To clarify
Roscoe quoting from Selena's posting "Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true."
RR: Did Pure say this???????
-----
No, I did not. While I think Selena is clear in her mind about who said the quote--Bill Maher said it, roughly, as best I can remember and reconstruct--her posting was not entirely clear on that point.
I do not consider her posting to be at all unfriendly, but particularly if quoted, it could easily be misread as containing a statement of mine.
As to my position, which is not identical to Maher's, I think typical male and typical female fantasies do differ, and that's pretty clearly reflected in the bulk of 'porn'-- pictures and writing. IT is a pretty commonly heard complaint from many women that 'porn' (i.e., most of it, apparently aimed at men) is at very least unexciting, if not off-putting.
OTOH, given the internet, it is not hard to find 'nontypical' women. What proportion? I can't say, but I believe it's a non-tiny minority, IOW more like 5% (five percent), than .5% (point five, percent). And these 'nontypical' women have fantasies of violent events, such as rape, gang bang, whipping; and also of 'offensive' events, such as ejaculation on the face, pissing in mouth.
Such 'nontypical' pre-occupations, to an increasing degree are reflected in a recent volume of Best Women's Erotica, for example, containing the story entitled, IIRC, "Branded."
Taken as a whole, then, women--as I believe Roscoe is suggesting-- represent a wide range of fantasies from the most 'soft focus', romantic, and benign, to the 'hard edge', gritty, even cruel.
[...]
For Selena
Roscoe quoting from Selena's posting "Women don't want to deal with our real fantasies…. But our society is feminized. We all pretend that the woman's fantasies could be hot for the man. America is so feminized now that everyone has to pretend that how women see things is true."
RR: Did Pure say this???????
-----
No, I did not. While I think Selena is clear in her mind about who said the quote--Bill Maher said it, roughly, as best I can remember and reconstruct--her posting was not entirely clear on that point.
I do not consider her posting to be at all unfriendly, but particularly if quoted, it could easily be misread as containing a statement of mine.
As to my position, which is not identical to Maher's, I think typical male and typical female fantasies do differ, and that's pretty clearly reflected in the bulk of 'porn'-- pictures and writing. IT is a pretty commonly heard complaint from many women that 'porn' (i.e., most of it, apparently aimed at men) is at very least unexciting, if not off-putting.
OTOH, given the internet, it is not hard to find 'nontypical' women. What proportion? I can't say, but I believe it's a non-tiny minority, IOW more like 5% (five percent), than .5% (point five, percent). And these 'nontypical' women have fantasies of violent events, such as rape, gang bang, whipping; and also of 'offensive' events, such as ejaculation on the face, pissing in mouth.
Such 'nontypical' pre-occupations, to an increasing degree are reflected in a recent volume of Best Women's Erotica, for example, containing the story entitled, IIRC, "Branded."
Taken as a whole, then, women--as I believe Roscoe is suggesting-- represent a wide range of fantasies from the most 'soft focus', romantic, and benign, to the 'hard edge', gritty, even cruel.
[...]
For Selena
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Selena_Kitt
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Didn't mean to cause confusion with my "quote" there... thanks for the rose, Pure 
as for fantasies, PURE said <grin>
actually... I think 'typical' women often have these fantasies too... I just think they have a different focus than a man's when he fantasizes about things like this... what rosco said about "dovetailing" comes to mind... the masculine and feminine fantasy generally can look exactly the same from the outside and be perceived very different for each...
gangbang for example... men often fantasize that she is an object, to be used as he (they) see fit... 'typical' women who have gangbang fantasies are usually fantasizing that she is so incredibly irresistable that they all want her <grin>... see how it can look the same from the outside but be an entirely different experience internally?
as for fantasies, PURE said <grin>
actually... I think 'typical' women often have these fantasies too... I just think they have a different focus than a man's when he fantasizes about things like this... what rosco said about "dovetailing" comes to mind... the masculine and feminine fantasy generally can look exactly the same from the outside and be perceived very different for each...
gangbang for example... men often fantasize that she is an object, to be used as he (they) see fit... 'typical' women who have gangbang fantasies are usually fantasizing that she is so incredibly irresistable that they all want her <grin>... see how it can look the same from the outside but be an entirely different experience internally?
Norajane
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SelenaKittyn said:Didn't mean to cause confusion with my "quote" there... thanks for the rose, Pure
as for fantasies, PURE said <grin>
actually... I think 'typical' women often have these fantasies too... I just think they have a different focus than a man's when he fantasizes about things like this... what rosco said about "dovetailing" comes to mind... the masculine and feminine fantasy generally can look exactly the same from the outside and be perceived very different for each...
gangbang for example... men often fantasize that she is an object, to be used as he (they) see fit... 'typical' women who have gangbang fantasies are usually fantasizing that she is so incredibly irresistable that they all want her <grin>... see how it can look the same from the outside but be an entirely different experience internally?
Nancy Friday wrote several books examining women's fantasies and men's fantasies. The bulk of the books consisted of actual fantasies that people wrote in to her anonymously, then she adds the psycho-speak around what they mean. In the case of women's fantasies, the last book talks about how they've changed over the 20 years since her first book.
Women do, indeed, have the 'rougher' fantasies which are the flipside of mens' or dovetail. Women with rape/non-consent fantasies turn to them so they don't have to feel guilty about sex - they don't seek it out, it is thrust upon them. Women fantasize about gangbangs because they desire more fulfillment in their actual sex lives. Submission fantasies also take the guilt away, and offer her the ability to reveal her true sexual nature, even though women aren't supposed to be sluts, etc. etc.
Men's fantasies aren't all, or even mostly, about violence. Rather, they are more about acceptance. Accepting his cum on her face is acceptance of him. Domination fantasies also speak to the need for acceptance of him and his sexuality.
I think Maher's off the mark on this one. Men and women can easily be turned on by the other's fantasies. Thinking that men might be turned on by them has nothing to do with the feminization of America, and everything to do with honest communication about what the sexes find sexy. If honest communication is feminzation, well, then we could do with more feminization. He errs in thinking all women fantasize about romance.
Unless he was just trying to be funny.
Pure
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to selena and nora
Hi Selena,
I, pure, had said, //And these 'nontypical' women have fantasies of violent events, such as rape, gang bang //
SK: actually... I think 'typical' women often have these fantasies too... I just think they have a different focus than a man's when he fantasizes about things like this... what rosco said about "dovetailing" comes to mind.
pure: point taken. any difference of typical and nontypical is a matter of frequency.
SK gangbang for example... men often fantasize that she is an object, to be used as he (they) see fit... 'typical' women who have gangbang fantasies are usually fantasizing that she is so incredibly irresistible that they all want her <grin>...
----
Pure: i didn't read roscoe that way, as to dovetailing. As to what *I* mean by 'fit' between the ordinary male and the nontypical female, it is more straight forward. Coming on the face shows higher status, if not the power to humiliate. There are certain females who want something like this, e.g. to experience a degree of humiliation. That's how I understand 'dovetailing.'
----
nora said,
Men and women can easily be turned on by the other's fantasies. Thinking that men might be turned on by them has nothing to do with the feminization of America, and everything to do with honest communication about what the sexes find sexy.
---
pure: welcome to the thread. good posting!
i thought this way for a long time, that psyches and libidos are amorphous, androgynous, and that 'culture' does it all. But no, as that well known case of the boy raised as a girl (due to an accident in circumcision), who ultimately rejected that gender role.
Yes, a women might be turned on by a man's fantasy, and vice versa.
The 'tails' of the two bell curves overlap, just as for height. There are women who can do a credible job at a not-quite-national level of men's hockey, and men whose lack of athleticism would keep them from being on any serious women hockey team.
But at the top is the separation (of teams), based on *typical* (not all the time) difference of strength, esp. in upper body. Similarly, at the top of Lit's 'most read' stories are a lot of joyful-bang-mama or do-big-sis tales. And I think those hundreds of thousands are predominantly male, and only a non typical minority of women really like them.
A few women, like our friend 'yui' like *some* types of incest stories; there might be lots of reasons, but, one, in my experience, is that it's the 'evil' (a kind of gothic mind) that attracts a few women. By contrast, our males want, "At her bidding, I banged the hell out of Mom and she said, 'Oh, my big boy, i never came like this before.'" Rose colored as it were.
I agree there is a problem with the term 'feminization' to describe the process all of us went through *along with* and partly because of feminism. I'd be happy to call it an enforced, goody-goody conventionalism , OR compulsory propriety, OR setting down in stone, a new, uniform and authoritative world view.
The 'moralizing' strain of feminists got into this. (A few, like Ellen Willis and Wendy Kaminer opposed it.) But maybe 'femininization' shouldn't be used to characterize the movement I described, since millions of males contribute their efforts and rushed to follow male leaders like Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh. Lately Mr. Dobson. The common agenda of the 'proper' folks includes, for example, laws banning porn and keeping prostitution criminal.
The above represent my 'take' and is not an effort to summarize Maher (including as quoted).
Hi Selena,
I, pure, had said, //And these 'nontypical' women have fantasies of violent events, such as rape, gang bang //
SK: actually... I think 'typical' women often have these fantasies too... I just think they have a different focus than a man's when he fantasizes about things like this... what rosco said about "dovetailing" comes to mind.
pure: point taken. any difference of typical and nontypical is a matter of frequency.
SK gangbang for example... men often fantasize that she is an object, to be used as he (they) see fit... 'typical' women who have gangbang fantasies are usually fantasizing that she is so incredibly irresistible that they all want her <grin>...
----
Pure: i didn't read roscoe that way, as to dovetailing. As to what *I* mean by 'fit' between the ordinary male and the nontypical female, it is more straight forward. Coming on the face shows higher status, if not the power to humiliate. There are certain females who want something like this, e.g. to experience a degree of humiliation. That's how I understand 'dovetailing.'
----
nora said,
Men and women can easily be turned on by the other's fantasies. Thinking that men might be turned on by them has nothing to do with the feminization of America, and everything to do with honest communication about what the sexes find sexy.
---
pure: welcome to the thread. good posting!
i thought this way for a long time, that psyches and libidos are amorphous, androgynous, and that 'culture' does it all. But no, as that well known case of the boy raised as a girl (due to an accident in circumcision), who ultimately rejected that gender role.
Yes, a women might be turned on by a man's fantasy, and vice versa.
The 'tails' of the two bell curves overlap, just as for height. There are women who can do a credible job at a not-quite-national level of men's hockey, and men whose lack of athleticism would keep them from being on any serious women hockey team.
But at the top is the separation (of teams), based on *typical* (not all the time) difference of strength, esp. in upper body. Similarly, at the top of Lit's 'most read' stories are a lot of joyful-bang-mama or do-big-sis tales. And I think those hundreds of thousands are predominantly male, and only a non typical minority of women really like them.
A few women, like our friend 'yui' like *some* types of incest stories; there might be lots of reasons, but, one, in my experience, is that it's the 'evil' (a kind of gothic mind) that attracts a few women. By contrast, our males want, "At her bidding, I banged the hell out of Mom and she said, 'Oh, my big boy, i never came like this before.'" Rose colored as it were.
I agree there is a problem with the term 'feminization' to describe the process all of us went through *along with* and partly because of feminism. I'd be happy to call it an enforced, goody-goody conventionalism , OR compulsory propriety, OR setting down in stone, a new, uniform and authoritative world view.
The 'moralizing' strain of feminists got into this. (A few, like Ellen Willis and Wendy Kaminer opposed it.) But maybe 'femininization' shouldn't be used to characterize the movement I described, since millions of males contribute their efforts and rushed to follow male leaders like Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, and Rush Limbaugh. Lately Mr. Dobson. The common agenda of the 'proper' folks includes, for example, laws banning porn and keeping prostitution criminal.
The above represent my 'take' and is not an effort to summarize Maher (including as quoted).
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elsol
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*burp*
It's like a painting... if only one guy controls the brushes and the paint, then the painting looks how he wants it to.
Now, when you add another painter, the rules have to be decided about how they're going to paint together.
a) Brush away -- they both get to do what they want to same canvas at the same time.
b) Each gets a section of the canvas
c) One stroke for you, one stroke for him, one stroke for you.
Does anyone think the painting two people will come up with will BE the painting one would have come up with?
Not I.
Women got a voice... no shit, things were going to change, Sherlock!
I notice no one without a KKK tatoo dares talk about the blackization of America.
Sincerely,
ElSol
It's like a painting... if only one guy controls the brushes and the paint, then the painting looks how he wants it to.
Now, when you add another painter, the rules have to be decided about how they're going to paint together.
a) Brush away -- they both get to do what they want to same canvas at the same time.
b) Each gets a section of the canvas
c) One stroke for you, one stroke for him, one stroke for you.
Does anyone think the painting two people will come up with will BE the painting one would have come up with?
Not I.
Women got a voice... no shit, things were going to change, Sherlock!
I notice no one without a KKK tatoo dares talk about the blackization of America.
Sincerely,
ElSol
Pure
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good point, el!
picture, however, not just adding a second person, doing the painting, but adding an judge who's going to decide if the painting is 'decent.'
Re 'blackization'. yes, the term, 'feminization,' has a retro or macho-bubba sound, and the process isn't solely--now, or even mainly--due to women, hence my proposal of three alternative terms. The term also lacks some plausibility (as with black people), for in the time things got 'femininized,' beginning in the 60s, women lacked political power. And now, "they" hardly run the federal court system which is busily engaged in figuring how to stop 'internet porn'!
The laws coming into effect that say, "If two people on a date get seriously, stumbling drunk and fuck, and no one quite remembers how it happened, then there's been a rape" are not being put on the books (mainly) by women legislators and judges.
PS.,
You talk of a requirement: I have to change [my book] before I can translate her to an eighteen year old. That was not put into law by *women*!
picture, however, not just adding a second person, doing the painting, but adding an judge who's going to decide if the painting is 'decent.'
Re 'blackization'. yes, the term, 'feminization,' has a retro or macho-bubba sound, and the process isn't solely--now, or even mainly--due to women, hence my proposal of three alternative terms. The term also lacks some plausibility (as with black people), for in the time things got 'femininized,' beginning in the 60s, women lacked political power. And now, "they" hardly run the federal court system which is busily engaged in figuring how to stop 'internet porn'!
The laws coming into effect that say, "If two people on a date get seriously, stumbling drunk and fuck, and no one quite remembers how it happened, then there's been a rape" are not being put on the books (mainly) by women legislators and judges.
PS.,
You talk of a requirement: I have to change [my book] before I can translate her to an eighteen year old. That was not put into law by *women*!
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rosco rathbone
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The more you learn about the depths of people's fantasies; the stranger and more comvoluted the whole thing becomes. I may enjoy coming on a woman's face (taking the example above) because I enjoy objectifying and humiliating her and she may very well enjoy the idea of humiliation; but when you probe into WHY she likes it and how she sees it and what it means to her, you probably end up very far away from why I like it.
Selena_Kitt
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exactly! but they "pair" together so well... same act, different reasons for liking it, yet everyone is happy...
Pure
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yes, rr, Selena, same act, different reasons. this is suggested in the Story of O, written BY a women, but FOR a man. Hence the acts--floggings, defilements by a group,--are as many a man would fantasize. But the author, in making her story a novel, supplied a more 'feminine' psychology (motives) for O. Incidentally, many an orthodox feminist read the book, looked at the *acts* and said, "This could not be by a woman."
----
yet everyone is happy...
well, except for Mr. Ashcroft and the 'moral majority'.
----
yet everyone is happy...
well, except for Mr. Ashcroft and the 'moral majority'.
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alice_underneath
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I agree completely.SelenaKittyn said:
I am a 45-year-old married woman living in suburbia whose range of sexual experiences would put most people here to sleep. No idea if that makes me 'typical', but I can tell you that virtually every fantasy I've ever had has involved rape, or at least the absence of control over what's going on.
Why? I don't crave pain or humiliation, so what's up with all the rape fantasies? I have reached the conclusion that the absence of control gives me the freedom to enjoy myself, guilt-free. In other words..... a Very Nice Girl can't be held responsible for doing naughty things if she is forced to against her will.
Yet another of your fantasies, Mr. Rathbone, which technically mirrors my own.rosco rathbone said:
I have no idea if I would feel humiliated if a guy actually did this to me. (To date, no one has.) But the appeal for me in Fantasyland has nothing to do with humiliation.
First of all, the visual of a guy's eruption is something that I just love to watch. I don't know why, but I consider it a fascinating and overwhelmingly erotic display. Part of the appeal might be that it's like a standing ovation - visible, absolute proof that I have done a great job pleasing the guy and he really, really appreciates my efforts.
I also think of ejaculation on the face as a primitive & very erotic way for a guy to mark me as his own.... kinda like my dog peeing on the perimeter of our yard.
Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about the everyone being happy part. If the guy's desire is to humiliate, and it's clear that the act makes me feel appreciated and cherished...... will his needs, in fact, be met in this exchange?SelenaKittyn said:
Alternatively, if he simultaneously uses other means (words, for example) to make me feel humiliated, will I still be happy about what's going on?
Selena_Kitt
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one man's humiliation is another woman's surrender... it looks the same, it feels different... her bowing to him is feeding both of their fantasies... and usually in sexual relationships that aren't just one night stands or paid-for kind of arrangements, there is some measure of emotional involvement (perhaps less for him as doc might argue
) on the part of both parties... I don't condone true violent action, but between mutually consenting adults, these acts satisfy a need in both the masculine and the feminine... hers to surrender, his to dominate... the feelings beneath them are their own... and actually work pretty synergistically... she looks up at him from her knees in sheer adoration and willingly accepts your cock into her mouth... how does that make you feel guys? (I should add: "guys that like this fantasy" lol) He puts his hand on your head and bows you to your knees and growls, "suck my cock!" How does that make you feel, girls? (same deal, those of you who get off on this fantasy). Of course it all depends on how far into the fantasy you both go... strangely, most people pick partners who are pretty reciprocally matched...alice_underneath
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Can't speak for the guys, but that works for me.SelenaKittyn said:
OMG.....SelenaKittyn said:
This is waaaaaaayyyyy too much stimulation for me when I haven't even left for the store, & I need to be back by 2.
LOL... gotta go...Talk to you later.
Alice
