Will you vote for Trump?

[adrina]

I only care if there is any attempt to enforce upon me agreeing or playing along with the claim.

Again, why do you care? Why is it such an important thing?

For example, if I am out and about and I see a corner preacher. You know the type. They are presenting as a preacher, they are even spouting gospel. Not only do I disagree with them designating and defining themselves as a preacher, I disagree with what they are saying.

Do I approach them and tell them how wrong they are? Even though they are obviously in my ear space and being what I consider to be a public menace, do I confront them? No. Why not? They are obviously egregiously wrong. They are obviously being a menace. They are even obviously - at least to me - spreading harmful information in a harmful manner.

So why don't I?

Because it's not only not my business, it won't matter. They won't change their behavior. They won't "see the light". Pun intended. They won't stop. It's not worth my time.

I don't understand why people care about gays, lesbians, trans etc. It's not their business. It's not my business. They only person it concerns is the person involved.

What's it to you?

 

[bijedi]

Ok then, I'm genuinely curious, what methodology do you apply to determine that?

For example, if a person genuinely believes they are cat (not a bad faith claim, they really believe it), do you accept their self identity as proof they are indeed cat?

A bit of a strawman, but okay.

Since human psychology does not have a component of species identity, a human identifying as a member of a non-human species would indicate a form of delusion or mental illness. There is no neurological or physiological basis for identifying as a species. I would accept that they believe they are feline, but I would not feel obligated to recognize them as a feline.

This is completely unrelated to gender dysphoria, which you are clearly trying to undermine here. Gender identity is a confirmed component of human psychology, with both neurological and physiological basis. In addition there are social attributes associated with gender expression. Gender dysphoria is not considered a delusion or any other form of mental illness by psychiatrist today.

This is a really poor argument on your part. Try to do better.

 

[TastySuckToy]

There is a difference between questioning an individual's claim of gender dysphoria and denying the existences of gender dysphoria.

I agree.

Everyone is entitled to judge the sincerity of another person's declaration of their gender identity.

Once again, fully agree.

There actually is a set of criteria for psychiatrist use in determining the degree of gender dysphoria a person experiences. But one doesn't have to be a psychiatrist to observe if one's actions are consistent with one's words.

Even then, I would give someone the benefit of the doubt within the context. But if a man who exhibits no traits of gender dysphoria suddenly announces he must use the women's locker room because he identifies as a woman, I believe a certain amount of skepticism is warranted.

Why? Can't they be gender fluid from one moment to the next?

And if it later turns out that person is dealing with gender dysphoria, that would have my complete sympathies and I would feel a fair amount of regret.

I have yet to see any evidence that gender dysphoria is anything more than conviction of personal belief.

 

[Lazaran]

A bit of a strawman, but okay.

Since human psychology does not have a component of species identity, a human identifying as a member of a non-human species would indicate a form of delusion or mental illness. There is no neurological or physiological basis for identifying as a species. I would accept that they believe they are feline, but I would not feel obligated to recognize them as a feline.

This is completely unrelated to gender dysphoria, which you are clearly trying to undermine here. Gender identity is a confirmed component of human psychology, with both neurological and physiological basis. In addition there are social attributes associated with gender expression. Gender dysphoria is not considered a delusion or any other form of mental illness by psychiatrist today.

This is a really poor argument on your part. Try to do better.

The poster you’re responding to doesn’t want to hear that.

The poster you’re responding to WILL NEVER want to hear that.

The poster you’re responding to is obviously a classic Sea Lion with an anti-trans agenda, and isn’t really open to being convinced of anything: regardless of the truth / accuracy of the information being offered by decent, intelligent human beings.

Bad faith bullshit is bad.

*nods*

 

[TastySuckToy]

Again, why do you care? Why is it such an important thing?

Are you seriously asking why I would have a problem with anyone trying to enforce upon me agreeing or playing along with a claim I consider false, or not proven?

For example, if I am out and about and I see a corner preacher. You know the type. They are presenting as a preacher, they are even spouting gospel. Not only do I disagree with them designating and defining themselves as a preacher, I disagree with what they are saying.

Do I approach them and tell them how wrong they are?

You certainly don't have to, but you are free to do so. Public space, freedom of expression, debate, disagreement, etc.

Even though they are obviously in my ear space and being what I consider to be a public menace, do I confront them? No. Why not? They are obviously egregiously wrong. They are obviously being a menace. They are even obviously - at least to me - spreading harmful information in a harmful manner.

So why don't I?

Because you're exercising your free choice to do so or not.

Because it's not only not my business, it won't matter. They won't change their behavior. They won't "see the light". Pun intended. They won't stop. It's not worth my time.

Your time is certainly your own and you're the authority on where and how to spend it.

I don't understand why people care about gays, lesbians, trans etc. It's not their business. It's not my business. They only person it concerns is the person involved.

I agree with this.

What's it to you?

It only becomes a concern when others attempt to enforce their views upon other. For example, verbally attacking someone if they 'misgender' someone.

 

[bijedi]

I have yet to see any evidence that gender dysphoria is anything more than conviction of personal belief.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

The entire psychiatry profession disagrees with you, though. And I am going to make the assumption that they have significantly more experience with individuals suffering from gender dysphoria. And have spent more time studying the underlying neurological and physiological and biological factors that may affect one's perception of gender identity. When comparing your expertise to their expertise, I know who's opinion carries more weight for me.

 

[adrina]

Are you seriously asking why I would have a problem with anyone trying to enforce upon me agreeing or playing along with a claim I consider false, or not proven?

You certainly don't have to, but you are free to do so. Public space, freedom of expression, debate, disagreement, etc.

Because you're exercising your free choice to do so or not.

Your time is certainly your own and you're the authority on where and how to spend it.

I agree with this.

It only becomes a concern when others attempt to enforce their views upon other. For example, verbally attacking someone if they 'misgender' someone.

Hahaha pardon, but who the fuck are you? Seriously. We operate every day with people shoving shit down our throats that isn't proven and we don't agree with. Trickle down economics, tax cuts for the rich, idiots trying to deny anthropomorphic climate change, legislating abortion as if women are carving out 8 month old fetuses from their uteruses, endless middle east wars over oil and religion to make rich men richer etc.

This isn't up to you. This is up to them. Who the fuck are you to get in their face and tell them they are wrong? Who are you to decide that? Disagree all you want but realize that you are trying to make them live by your judgement when all you have to do is shrug and live and let live. All the while getting huffy that they have the gall to be who they think they are.

That's some nerve.

 

[Lazaran]

It only becomes a concern when others attempt to enforce their views upon other. For example, verbally attacking someone if they 'misgender' someone.

Wow.

Such a victim.

Poor TFB

 

[TastySuckToy]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

The entire psychiatry profession disagrees with you, though. And I am going to make the assumption that they have significantly more experience with individuals suffering from gender dysphoria. And have spent more time studying the underlying neurological and physiological and biological factors that may affect one's perception of gender identity. When comparing your expertise to their expertise, I know who's opinion carries more weight for me.

The issue boils down to two things: an individual's self perception of identity, and other's perception of someone's identity. The first can be whatever anyone wants, identify as a carrot for all I care. It's only when there's attempts to trample over the second I start having a problem.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Hahaha pardon, but who the fuck are you? Seriously. We operate every day with people shoving shit down our throats that isn't proven and we don't agree with. Trickle down economics, tax cuts for the rich, idiots trying to deny anthropomorphic climate change, legislating abortion as if women are carving out 8 month old fetuses from their uteruses, endless middle east wars over oil and religion to make rich men richer etc.

This isn't up to you. This is up to them. Who the fuck are you to get in their face and tell them they are wrong? Who are you to decide that? Disagree all you want but realize that you are trying to make them live by your judgement when all you have to do is shrug and live and let live. All the while getting huffy that they have the gall to be who they think they are.

That's some nerve.

Did you just seriously write a paragraph harping about how the fuck anyone dare get into someone's else's face and argue with them?

What the fuck do you think you're doing with me? Peacefully agreeing and nodding?

 

[adrina]

Did you just seriously write a paragraph harping about how the fuck anyone dare get into someone's else's face and argue with them?

What the fuck do you think you're doing with me? Peacefully agreeing and nodding?

Are you always the victim? Or do you just like to argue?

We're talking about you blatantly disrespecting and insisting it is your right to disrespect and disregard how someone thinks about themselves.

Either be serious or STFU.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Are you always the victim? Or do you just like to argue?

We're talking about you blatantly disrespecting and insisting it is your right to disrespect and disregard how someone thinks about themselves.

Either be serious or STFU.

Do people here have the right to disrespect me and how I see myself, by calling me names I don't identify as? For example, racist, deplorable, misogynistic, conservative, etc?

 

[adrina]

Do people here have the right to disrespect me and how I see myself, by calling me names I don't identify as? For example, racist, deplorable, misogynistic, conservative, etc?

If you are being racist, deplorable, misogynist etc then yes. Are you saying "conservative" is an insult? The conservatives might have a thing to say about that.

So you think it's okay to disrespect trans folks because you think you have been disrespected.

Ahhh I see the error. You identify as a thinking human being, but for the most part you are a duck.

My apologies to Daffy.

 

[bijedi]

The issue boils down to two things: an individual's self perception of identity, and other's perception of someone's identity. The first can be whatever anyone wants, identify as a carrot for all I care. It's only when there's attempts to trample over the second I start having a problem.

Again, your are welcome to your opinion.

Personally, I care when someone decides their opinion trumps someone's else's experience. Especially when that opinion is based in ignorance and is used to discriminate against or diminish the other person's rights and opinions.

YMMV

 

[TastySuckToy]

Personally, I care when someone decides their opinion trumps someone's else's experience.

Who says that?

Especially when that opinion is based in ignorance and is used to discriminate against or diminish the other person's rights and opinions.

Just what rights and opinions are being diminished, exactly?

Person A: "I'm a carrot."
Person B: "Ok, whatever, I don't think you are though."
Person A: "How dare you!"

 

[TastySuckToy]

If you are being racist, deplorable, misogynist etc then yes.

So a person's self identity is easily disregarded if it conflicts with your own perception. I agree with this.

Are you saying "conservative" is an insult? The conservatives might have a thing to say about that.

Seems to be the general theme around here. I don't consider it an insult, but it often gets thrown around like it is one.

So you think it's okay to disrespect trans folks because you think you have been disrespected.

You've established it's perfectly fine to 'disrespect' someone by identifying them how you perceive them, regardless how they self identify. And I'm agreeing with you.

 

[adrina]

Yes because your political identity is the same as someone's gender identity. Make sure you use the right bathroom.

I think we've come to the end of useful discourse.

Have a good evening.

 

[bijedi]

Who says that?

Just what rights and opinions are being diminished, exactly?

The rights and opinions of transgender individuals. (did I really need to spell that out for you?)

Person A: "I'm a carrot."
Person B: "Ok, whatever, I don't think you are though."
Person A: "How dare you!"

Now do the same with a transgender woman.

Your attempt at sophistry is as pathetic as your empathy for people with experiences that differ from yours.

Good night, sealion.

 

[TastySuckToy]

The rights and opinions of transgender individuals. (did I really need to spell that out for you?)

Which rights and opinions of transgender individuals are being diminished? How are they being diminished?

Now do the same with a transgender woman.

Person A: "I'm a woman."
Person B: "Ok, whatever, I don't think you are though."
Person A: "How dare you!"

Where's the problem?

 

[Lazaran]

Which rights and opinions of transgender individuals are being diminished? How are they being diminished?

Person A: "I'm a woman."
Person B: "Ok, whatever, I don't think you are though."
Person A: "How dare you!"

Where's the problem?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Which rights and opinions of transgender individuals are being diminished? How are they being diminished?

Person A: "I'm a woman."
Person B: "Ok, whatever, I don't think you are though."
Person A: "How dare you!"

Where's the problem?

Intentionally misgendering someone is rude. If you regularly disregard the feelings of others, people will decide you’re an asshole and shun you.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Intentionally misgendering someone is rude.

Is it intentionally misgendering someone if you genuinely perceive them differently than how they perceive themselves?

If you regularly disregard the feelings of others, people will decide you’re an asshole and shun you.

I don't see many here particularly concerned about feelings when they engage in routine and aggressive name calling of those they disagree with.

I would assert that not agreeing with someone's self perceived identity is far less rude than delibrately and consistently name calling people.

 

[bijedi]

Is it intentionally misgendering someone if you genuinely perceive them differently than how they perceive themselves?

Based on current knowledge, yes.

If I were to continually refer to you as a different gender than you identified as, I would assume you might that a little bit offensive and even aggressive on my part.

Your opinion that you get to determine what gender someone must be identified as regardless of the gender they identify as is rightly considered rude and offensive. As I have referenced, the current opinion of the medical community is that gender dysphoria is real, a person's perception of their gender doesn't always line up with their physical sex.

You are absolutely free to ignore this, and refer to them by the gender you choose to identify them as. But you shouldn't be surprised or offended when the rest of the world judges you poorly for that. We are free to have our opinions as well.

IMO, those who deny the reality of gender dysphoria will eventually be viewed the same as those who believe homosexuality is a choice. And yes, I unfortunately still know too many of those people today too. Prejudices die hard.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Is it intentionally misgendering someone if you genuinely perceive them differently than how they perceive themselves?

I don't see many here particularly concerned about feelings when they engage in routine and aggressive name calling of those they disagree with.

I would assert that not agreeing with someone's self perceived identity is far less rude than delibrately and consistently name calling people.

Being called rude names doesn’t give you license to be rude to others, particularly not to people whose only offense is not performing their gender role to your satisfaction.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Based on current knowledge, yes.

You're asking people to disregard/ignore their own perceptions to satisfy someone else's subjective self perception. I see no rational reason to do this.

If I were to continually refer to you as a different gender than you identified as, I would assume you might that a little bit offensive and even aggressive on my part.

Why? I'm routinely name called around here with labels that are delibrately intended to be rude, disrespectful and hurtful.

Being incorrectly identified as a man/male or woman/female would strike me as an amusing perception error, especially since there's nothing wrong with being either.

Your opinion that you get to determine what gender someone must be identified

No, I don't get to determine what gender someone must be identified as. I simply have a perception of someone's identity and express that perception as I see it.

I don't determine for anyone else if someone is tall, I simply perceive them that way.

You are absolutely free to ignore this, and refer to them by the gender you choose to identify them as.

I don't choose to identify someone as bald, I simply perceive them that way or not.