"I didn't pull the trigger"

[Paul_Chance]

Yeah, you are correct there - at the end of the day (legally) it's not going to matter whether he pulled the trigger, or released the hammer, or jostled it, or even the remote chance the gun had a mechanical failure.

Legally, he's going to be on the hook for civil damages (as one of the producers, under whom the whole set safety falls, regardless of who did what). However, since film companies are LLC's, formed for the duration of the filming, it will be a stretch to get him personally. The first target of any civil lawsuit will be the LLC, who has insurance (or should have), and most likely they'll negotiate a payout with the survivor and the victim's family.

On the criminal side, the liability in Arizona is such that "it was an accident" is a valid defense. Arizona doesn't differentiate between involuntary manslaughter and voluntary manslaughter. It hinges on the "recklessness", which will come back to the handling of the firearm pre-shooting - who handled it, who loaded it, etc. As an actor, it is entirely feasible that Baldwin was told it was a safe prop gun and that every one at the immediate site of the shooting believed it was safe.

Someone, somewhere in the chain could be vulnerable to a charge of negligent homicide under Arizona law, which can be charged if it's believed the defendant didn't perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk, but the action still resulted in the death of someone.

 

[phrodeau]

On his interview with Snuffanopolis he said he pull the hammer back and let it go. Mystery solved.

So a gun can fire a bullet without anything touching the trigger. I wonder if anyone will admit to being wrong on that point.

 

[pecksniff]

Would anyone care about this story at all, if Baldwin were not the kind of celeb who sometimes talks about politics?

 

[Comshaw]

Yeah, you are correct there - at the end of the day (legally) it's not going to matter whether he pulled the trigger, or released the hammer, or jostled it, or even the remote chance the gun had a mechanical failure.

Legally, he's going to be on the hook for civil damages (as one of the producers, under whom the whole set safety falls, regardless of who did what). However, since film companies are LLC's, formed for the duration of the filming, it will be a stretch to get him personally. The first target of any civil lawsuit will be the LLC, who has insurance (or should have), and most likely they'll negotiate a payout with the survivor and the victim's family.

On the criminal side, the liability in Arizona is such that "it was an accident" is a valid defense. Arizona doesn't differentiate between involuntary manslaughter and voluntary manslaughter. It hinges on the "recklessness", which will come back to the handling of the firearm pre-shooting - who handled it, who loaded it, etc. As an actor, it is entirely feasible that Baldwin was told it was a safe prop gun and that every one at the immediate site of the shooting believed it was safe.

Someone, somewhere in the chain could be vulnerable to a charge of negligent homicide under Arizona law, which can be charged if it's believed the defendant didn't perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk, but the action still resulted in the death of someone.

Everything points to the fact he is personally responsible. He not only was the one who pointed the gun that killed the woman, but was also the one who, while in charge, allowed, orchestrated or demanded the conditions that led to the shooting. If he were just the one in charge, the LLC would be able to protect him from personal liability. But being both the one indirectly (decisions made that led to the conditions) AND directly (the one holding the gun when it went off) involved with the shooting, I don't think he has much, if any, shade to hide in.

As far as criminal liability, you may be right, but to my mind that is a travesty of justice if it is so. I've seen people go to jail for far less. I've always heard and believe that stupidity is no defense in a criminal trial.

All that said, his money and popularity are going to play into this. You can damn well bet had this played out in a small business with a less visible personality, someone would be going to jail.

Comshaw

 

[Comshaw]

So a gun can fire a bullet without anything touching the trigger. I wonder if anyone will admit to being wrong on that point.

That supposition isn't wrong, it's just a one in a million chance. As pointed out in an earlier post, worn, modified or bad components can cause such a thing. It can happen. Do I think it did? Well, hmmmm, let me sign these papers for my purchase of ocean front property in Arizona before I answer.

Comshaw

 

[contrifan32]

.
A right wing gun nut Deplorable / disgruntled crew member wearing a MAGA hat brought live ammo onto the set and likely tampered with the gun Baldwin was handed.

Identify the person who brought the ammo onto the set and you will have enough to charge someone with a crime.

Baldwin did nothing wrong in his actions leading up to the shooting, but desperate Deplorables want to smear him because of his ridiculing of their orange god.

SAD!!!

I fixed your your post

 

[Rightguide]

Reportedly it was a replica of a Colt Single Action Army pistol. Normally these pistols are carried with an empty chamber (5 beans in the wheel) under the hammer so that if the hammer is struck there is no chance of an accidental discharge. in order to fire this weapon, a live round has to be under the hammer when it is either struck from behind accidentally, like being dropped to the ground, or the hammer manually cocked, trigger pulled, and the hammer released on a live round. When the pistol is carried loaded with the hammer down on an empty chamber, the hammer must be cocked manually to rotate the cylinder and move a loaded chamber under the hammer for firing. Somebody cocked the pistol and pressed the trigger, or cocked the pistol with the thumb holding the hammer, depressed the trigger, and then released the thumb from the hammer, dropping it onto a live round. It's almost impossible for me to believe that somebody else cocked the pistol with a live round in the chamber and then handed it to Baldwin and it strangely went off in the exchange. This would have violated every safety protocol I can think of.

 

[Rightguide]

Would anyone care about this story at all, if Baldwin were not the kind of celeb who sometimes talks about politics?

All the time talks about politics, especially gun controls.

 

[phrodeau]

Reportedly it was a replica of a Colt Single Action Army pistol. Normally these pistols are carried with an empty chamber (5 beans in the wheel) under the hammer so that if the hammer is struck there is no chance of an accidental discharge. in order to fire this weapon, a live round has to be under the hammer when it is either struck from behind accidentally, like being dropped to the ground, or the hammer manually cocked, trigger pulled, and the hammer released on a live round. When the pistol is carried loaded with the hammer down on an empty chamber, the hammer must be cocked manually to rotate the cylinder and move a loaded chamber under the hammer for firing. Somebody cocked the pistol and pressed the trigger, or cocked the pistol with the thumb holding the hammer, depressed the trigger, and then released the thumb from the hammer, dropping it onto a live round. It's almost impossible for me to believe that somebody else cocked the pistol with a live round in the chamber and then handed it to Baldwin and it strangely went off in the exchange. This would have violated every safety protocol I can think of.

Sounds like sabotage is a possibility.

 

[Wrong Element]

I don't have much of an opinion on this except that I'm surprised no one has told Baldwin that he's not helping himself at all by commenting publicly and could very well be hurting himself. But I guess it's hard for any celebrity to just shut the hell up.

I've believed all along that Baldwin is potentially at greater risk from his role as producer on the film, since he was at least partially responsible for running what was manifestly an unsafe workplace.

 

[pecksniff]

Would anyone care about this story at all, if Baldwin were not the kind of celeb who sometimes talks about politics?

Seriously, would anybody? It would be a lesser story than the death of Brandon Lee -- the dead person in the Baldwin case being a nobody.

 

[Lazaran]

.
Im starting to think that people have lost their sense of reality.

Alec Baldwin was subject to the conditions on the set that led to the shooting, and was not responsible for the preparation of the gun, nor the direction of the scene that called for him to cock the hammer so the camera could capture it.

Just because Baldwin had "Producer" attached to his name does not mean he had total responsibility for, and control of, all aspects of the production.

Is it possible that people are allowing their personal hatred for Alec Baldwin to cloud their judgement of his culpability???

 

[Rightguide]

I don't have much of an opinion on this except that I'm surprised no one has told Baldwin that he's not helping himself at all by commenting publicly and could very well be hurting himself. But I guess it's hard for any celebrity to just shut the hell up.

I've believed all along that Baldwin is potentially at greater risk from his role as producer on the film, since he was at least partially responsible for running what was manifestly an unsafe workplace.

I think he is hurting himself. I'm quite sure an attorney would tell him to shut up. He is an accomplished actor and I can't be the only one who sees the melodrama in his interviews.

 

[Lazaran]

Sounds like sabotage is a possibility.

Alec Baldwin is HATED by the Deplorables, and the crew on the production of "Rust" was angry. Its painfully apparent that some Deplorable in the crew brought live ammo onto a set that was supposed to be free of live ammo. Was it the armorer?? Possibly. The armorer obviously has an affinity for firearms, but introducing live rounds into the environment would obviously violate the basic safety protocols of an armorer. This leads me to believe that it was some roughneck Deplorable on the crew who had the opportunity to sabotage the ammunition, hoping for an accidental discharge from the misfire prone gun Alec Baldwin was given.

Ultimately, the person who brought the live ammo onto the set knows who they are, and knows they are responsible for a talented young womans death, the injury of another person, and the traumatization of many others.

SAD!!!

 

[pecksniff]

Is it possible that people are allowing their personal hatred for Alec Baldwin to cloud their judgement of his culpability???

And why does anyone have such hatred?

 

[Lazaran]

And why does anyone have such hatred?

He dared to mock their orange God.

 

[Rightguide]

He dared to mock their orange God.

He was hated in Hollywood and elsewhere long before Trump. It goes way back to 2007 when he abused his daughter over the phone and the audio was leaked to the public by TMZ. He's been publicly and privately abusing people for years. He's known for it.

 

[Lazaran]

.
RotGut is admitting to his HATE.

Excellent.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

.
Im starting to think that people have lost their sense of reality.

To me it more like people fail to understand that a movie set, is a place of employment.....


How about this, you are a crane operator, you come on shift, get in your crane and do your hoisting. You don't spool out the cable to check it, you assume the mechanic who certified the crane has done his job.

Or this, you take your car to a mechanic, who fixes the brakes. You pay the bill an drive away. You don't throw the car back on the hoist, and check the brakes, do you?

In the examples above, people are relying on others, who are certified in what they do, to have done the correct repair.

This is the case on a movie set. ( I have been there and seen it, so I at least understand the process of how "prop weapons" are treated) So Baldwin was handed a "prop", he had the full expectation it would be as safe to use as a crane, or having his car's brakes fixed.

All the others who claim he should have checked the gun first, have no fucking clue. There are actors wouldn't know how to even take out the magazine, or clear the chamber from a gun. They would only know the moves choreographed for the scene take.

.
Alec Baldwin was subject to the conditions on the set that led to the shooting, and was not responsible for the preparation of the gun, nor the direction of the scene that called for him to cock the hammer so the camera could capture it.

As I said before, he was an employee, following his bosses directions...

. Just because Baldwin had "Producer" attached to his name does not mean he had total responsibility for, and control of, all aspects of the production.

Producers are often gifts for people, to be shown some status on sets, and for some ego boosting from credits. Most of the time, they have a financial interest invested into the movie. I am not claiming Baldwin doesn't have some legal issues resulting from being a producer, but I have not seen anything that showed he had a direct hand in the safety end of the movie. He may well face charges over that, but that is a complete different aspect, than his employment as an actor in the movie.

. Is it possible that people are allowing their personal hatred for Alec Baldwin to cloud their judgement of his culpability???

^^^^^^^^

Maybe a bit of an under statement.....*chuckles*

 

[Champakian]

Whether or not he faces any "criminal" penalty,
I imagine civil proceedings will absolve him of
a large portion of his wealth...

It's all to the good.

 

[Champakian]

I don't care if it's a movie set or the local redneck NRA shooting range.

Only the ignorant would say that it is not your personal responsibility
to check any weapon that you are about to handle. Alec doesn't get to
blame the little people on this one. It was his set. It was up to him.

You know, the old, "trust, but verify," school of self-defense.
If Alec (or you) knew one fucking thing about guns and
gun safety, that woman would still be alive...

 

[Fuzzy1975]

blah blah blah, I don't like Baldwin ...

A no theatrical experienced, often banned poster ,stating he doesn't agree with work place safety policies....

Like I said, you know fuck all about the subject matter, but cannot help inject your opinion as how the safe work procedures are carried out.

Next time you get some work done on your vehicle, I am most certain you will have the mechanic put it up on the hoist so you can check if it was done right.....

 

[Champakian]

I was married to an actress.

Do not assume facts not in evidence and dial back the hate.

 

[Champakian]

And, I am smack dab in the middle of gun culture and yes, I do check up
on the mechanic's work because I have had extensive automotive work experience.

So, again, don't assume, it just makes an ass out of you...

 

[Champakian]

Let me repeat myself.

Guns are one of the most dangerous things on the planet.
If you are not going to take personal responsibility for it,
don't pick the mother-fucker up and handle it...

Tell the prop master that you want a rubber gun.
Alec is an idiot and you're sounding like Alec.

People give actors way too much credit for brains
when all they are only adept mimics.