the vatican, again
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stickygirl
All the witches
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https://d1xkhapf8f3lxw.cloudfront.net/api/images/CardShop/1/product/jol070/1?w=350&productSizeId=1
Does that mean priests get to fuck choirboys still?
...but seriously, who cares? I mean thoughts and prayers to LGBT catholics, but you need to rethink your priorities if that's what God's disciple on earth is preaching
I am always surprised when people are shocked at something like this when it comes to the church. This is a church whose leaders proclaim moral truth, yet were responsible for a worldwide series of abuses that are mind boggling evil. More importantly, it is a church whose leadership, especially in America where the Bishops and Cardinals are in the image of JPII and Benedict who took the church backwards hundreds of years. The Catholic leadership in this country, live evangelicals, have turned Christianity into being anti lgbt and anti abortion pretty much. They pretty much openly endorsed Donald Trump bc he was willing to throw LGBT people under the bus and work to put anti abortion judges on the supreme court, while demonizing Joe Biden because he is pro choice and pro same sex marriage being legal. Biden actually is religious, Donald Trump's closest approach to a church his whole life was that stupid photo op in front of that church in DC, they gave hosannah's to a man who has been divorced several times, cheats on his wives all over the place, has sex with porn starts, talks about picking a women up by her pussy, whose business dealings violate several commandments, etc, yet demonize a man who is by all accounts a decent man.
What is sad is that many Catholics reject the church's crap on this, there are many LGBT affirming churches out there (under the radar, but still), large percentages of Catholics are pro same sex marriage and civil rights laws protecting LGBT people, yet they refuse to see just how fucked up the church leadership is, they pretend they don't matter, they don't understand that politicians still live in a world where they think the bishops represent most catholics...and they dont call their leadership on turning Catholicism into being a mirror of evangelicals. When was the last time you heard the Bishops threaten a catholic lawmaker gutting programs for the poor to give the rich a huge tax break (oh, yes, they wrote Paul Ryan a letter, saying naughty naughty for saying the poor are poor because they are morally defective and slashing programs to the poor). Trump demonized hispanics, called them rapists and murderers, did the Church denounce that? no...and the people he was demonizing are mostly Catholic!
People were expecting this pope to be different, and while he wasn't the meathead JPII was or the Nazi era relic Benedict was, he faces a church that basically is looking for anything to remain relevant (In the US, Catholics are still the larget denomination, with like 60 milion people, but something like 25% bother to go to church regularly, used to be like 90%). Somewhere along the lines in their quest for orthodoxy they forgot the more simple portions of their faith, especially when it comes to sexuality.
What is sad is that many Catholics reject the church's crap on this, there are many LGBT affirming churches out there (under the radar, but still), large percentages of Catholics are pro same sex marriage and civil rights laws protecting LGBT people, yet they refuse to see just how fucked up the church leadership is, they pretend they don't matter, they don't understand that politicians still live in a world where they think the bishops represent most catholics...and they dont call their leadership on turning Catholicism into being a mirror of evangelicals. When was the last time you heard the Bishops threaten a catholic lawmaker gutting programs for the poor to give the rich a huge tax break (oh, yes, they wrote Paul Ryan a letter, saying naughty naughty for saying the poor are poor because they are morally defective and slashing programs to the poor). Trump demonized hispanics, called them rapists and murderers, did the Church denounce that? no...and the people he was demonizing are mostly Catholic!
People were expecting this pope to be different, and while he wasn't the meathead JPII was or the Nazi era relic Benedict was, he faces a church that basically is looking for anything to remain relevant (In the US, Catholics are still the larget denomination, with like 60 milion people, but something like 25% bother to go to church regularly, used to be like 90%). Somewhere along the lines in their quest for orthodoxy they forgot the more simple portions of their faith, especially when it comes to sexuality.
I was raised Catholic but when Trump got elected with Catholic votes, I said fuck the Catholic Church. I have not been back and I am never going back.
Keep in mind this was the same Catholic Church that was in bed with Hitler, they don't change, with Hitler besides the fact that the church leaders were anti semitic, their shtick with him was much the same as old Neville, they thought their pal Adolph was going to protect them from those bad Russians and he would never, ever do anything bad , he was a "Christian defending Christian Europe from the Atheistic Communists" (those are actual words said during that period by people like Chamberlein and Church leaders.). Not to mention that the anti semitism was doubled down because the pope, like many in Europe, believed that the Bolshevik Revolution was the work of Jews (Eugenio Pacelli, ie Pius XII, when he was papal legate to the Nazi government, wrote back about how Hitler was putting down the "socialist Jews" out to destroy Christianity and Europe and bring in Bolshevism..the letter is cited in Goldhagen's book "A Moral Reckoning"). The church has always proclaimed it can work with any government besides communism, think of the evil governments that they basically went along with.
The Catholic leaders in the US have turned the church teachings into two things, being anti LGBT and being anti abortion.
M
MrBoring
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I had heard on my visit to Berlin and on a walking tour how the Catholic Churches were supporting Hitler, as you say... is there anything you can recommend to read !
Interestingly, not long ago, the German Church admitted that the church during the Nazi era had not done their duty and basically supported hitler and the nazis, it surprised me, given the church as a whole still has refused to acknowledge the role of the Church with Hitler. The Catholic Church was the only church to sign a non aggression pact with Hitler, and they enjoyed a fairly decent relationship with the Nazi regime.
Probably the best book on the subject was Daniel Goldhagen's book "A Moral Reckoning", which was one of the most detailed books on the relationship. The fact that the church tried to Canonize Pius XII (the wartime Pope) by JPII and Benedict would have set off a bomb, the current Pope stopped it. The book shows what Pacelli's view of Jews was (hint, it wasn't great) when Papal envoy to the third reich, and his missives back to the Pope lauded things the Nazis were doing, especially the Nuremberg laws that stripped Jews of citizenship. Italy is a kind of weird country, it wasn't as strongly anti semitic as places like France and Poland were (and are, sadly), Mussolini of all people refused to turn the Jews over to Hitler, and there just wasn't the level of hatred there (it existed, don't get me wrong, not holding them up to what for example the Danes did), the Italian Jews unfortunately after Mussolini fell and Germany occupied the country, were literally decimated (from like 500k to 50k), but unlike France for example, the people for the most part didn't help, it was mostly the nazis doing it.
I don't think the Pope wanted the Holocaust to happen, but I think he, like much of the church leadership, was anti semitic enough not to want to help (and please, if anyone gives me that line how Pius saved 850,000 Jews, stick it, those words came from Einstein and David Ben Gurion, were said in the early 50's when Israel was struggling to survive and needed the US, if they had said the Pope was responsible for a lot of Jewish deaths, the Catholic Church had power, especially in the US, to quash help for Israel, believe me). Pius was willing to stick his neck out for other things, the church put out encyclicals in Germany about government interference in the affairs of the church, they put out encyclicals against the killing of handicapped people and steilizing people they felt were inferior, I believe it was 12 or 13 in total...yet 0 for the Jews. One laughable argument is that the Pope did this to protect the Jews, that if he spoke out it would be worse, but that is utter bullshit again backed by history. Catholics say "He had no armies", but they dicount the power of his pen, the encyclicals I mentioned were effective, they stopped the practices within germany.
Put it this way, Southern Germany is heavily Catholic to this day, they have Crucifixes in public school classrooms there, and many in the high command and other positions of power in Nazi Germany were Catholic. Many of those people were already wary of Hitler, if the Pope had spoken out (fyi, Pius the XI was about to issue such an encyclical at the time he died, Pius XII made sure it didn't go out), it would have had an influence, you can forget the nonsense about Germany being run by pagans etc, Germans were churchgoing people and Catholics were prominent ll through government, industry and the military, it would have made a difference. One thing he could have done is encouraged Catholics around the world to welcome Jewish refugees into their countries. The Final solution was not decided until 1941, the Nazis would have been happy to get rid of their Jews by emigration, they put serious offers on the tables to other countries, including the US. It was openly debated, talked about (HL Mencken, supposedly an anti semite, was hugely in favor of the Jews coming to the US en masse, said it would benefit the country tremendously), but in the end was torpedoed by gross anti semtism , the biggest nails in the coffin came from the Catholic Bishops and from what we now call Evangelical Christians (because of their size, I suspet mainstream protestant churches weren't much better, I can just imagine what the Frozen Chosen of the Episcopal CHurch of the time would think of letting 'those people in here"). Spellman told Roosevelt that if the US allowed the jews in, that they would preach against the Democrats and FDR and tell heavily Catholic political groups like the machines in big cities to work against Democrats, I don't have to tell you what the SOuthern Baptists and the rest said....
Not even going to talk about the Church's role in Nazi war criminals escaping to South America, they played an active role in getting wanted Nazis out of the country, and the ratlines went all the way up to the Vatican, this wasn't rogue priests.
It is going to be interesting, the current Pope has supposedly fully opened up the Nazi era archives to researchers, unlike the past, it will be interesting to see if A)they actually did and B) what it says, I suspect that Catholics are going to be doing some serious naval gazing about the church they thought they knew. It is telling that the church remained silent on the Holocaust until the early 80's, when they came out with a mea culpa of sorts "We remember" that says "well, there wasn't really much we could do, but we should of done more", which definitely isn't true.
And I want to add one thing, there were many Catholics, including clergy, monks, nuns and lay Catholics, who risked and many lost their lives, horribly, trying to help the Jews, unlike the church leadership they understood their duty, felt it, the irony is they knew their faith better than Spellman, who reputedly told FDR that if they 'let those fucking Christ Killers into the US, he would personally work to bury them". (the language is purported, but the fact that Spellman pressed FDR not to allow any significant Jewish refugeees into the country is a matter of fact, Henry Morganthau , FDR's treasury secretary, wrote about a meeting with FDR where he basically apologized and explained why his hand was tied, that politically it would put the republicans in office and that would have been disastrous in terms of both the war in Europe (The GOP was the party of America First for sure, very isolationist), and also with whatever they could do with the Jews.
I apologize for hijacking the thread, but it kind of fits, given that bigotry is bigotry.
stickygirl
All the witches
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Fab info Lauren. Thanks for your time on this
