What do you call an aircraft carrier captain concerned for the safety of his crew?

[SpeareChucker]

He breached Navy rules and the Admiralty does not take that lightly.
He should have requested mast and talked to them directly...





We don't want to turn Venezuelan.

 

[sygn]

He breached Navy rules and the Admiralty does not take that lightly.
He should have requested mast and talked to them directly...



We don't want to turn Venezuelan.

That's true.

But as a completely separate issue, imo those above him, even up to Modley if needed, need to be investigated.

Someone brought up pretty plausible concerns about their incompetent management -- doesn't matter who did that. The complaint needs to be looked into.

 

[sygn]

"He should have requested mast and talked to them directly"


Are we sure he didn't do that already? Those were just Modly's words, we need the paper trail.

 

[SpeareChucker]

That's true.

But as a completely separate issue, imo those above him, even up to Modley if needed, need to be investigated.

Someone brought up pretty plausible concerns about their incompetent management -- doesn't matter who did that. The complaint needs to be looked into.

Why?
Have they breached protocol?

 

[SpeareChucker]

"He should have requested mast and talked to them directly"


Are we sure he didn't do that already? Those were just Modly's words, we need the paper trail.

They wouldn't have sacked him if they were implicated.
Think about it...

 

[icanhelp1]

Me not knowing about the Army, I'm starting to gradually grasp your guys' point.

In theory what he did was A HUGE BREACH.
What you said, and this was a strategic warship with nukes on board in unfriendly waters.
And indeed, these arrangements take time you can't do them overnight in a new country.

But my take on Crozier was that he was an experienced competent officer, he Knew all these things, and he resorted to them out of desperation. There must have been more to the story.

When a commander breaks the chain of command you lose unity of command. A subordinate commander needs to be able to fulfill his commanders intent. He displayed incompetence by placing his priority above his commander's. Unity of mission focus is a force multiplier in a combined arms mission.

I highly suspect that
a)he felt there was an unnecessary, resolvable delay that was putting his crew's lives in high danger.

A commander needs to work within the parameters and protocol of his personal command responsibilities and lead! That's what military leadership is all about. A commander's priority is the mission. A military force has to be on the same page, cohesive in nature but flexible AND FOLLOW ORDERS, "DO YOUR JOB" and believe your fellow officers have the same integrity to lead as you. When officers make decisions outside their purview it could lead to disaster. There could be a time where a force is separated from a command structure, it's that training style that sets us apart, critical thinking and ability to command his unit separate of a command structure. Not the case here.

b) And, most of all, that all the cc's were his last resort: he had encountered a brick wall on his 1:1 interactions with upper management.

That captain should have been dealing strictly with his flag officer, that was his chain of command ( his upper level management! )

c) etc.

Yes, he probably should have been demotedcfrom that post, you made a compelling case for that.
But don't those higher up need to be investigated too? Whether they performed their duty competently.

The whole thing is out in the open so I'm sure there will be an internal navy investigation as well as a congressional investigation. The military operates within the legal parameters of the UCMJ ( JAG ) BUT NOW THAT THE IGNORANT PUBLIC OPINION HAS BEEN INTERJECTED IT WILL BECOME A CLUSTER FUCK!! Ignorance is not intended to be viewed as a pejorative but as a lack of understanding of military doctrine. Tend to formulate opinions based on emotion and not policy

 

[SpeareChucker]

Again,

well said.

There's something happening here...

 

[sygn]

Why?
Have they breached protocol?

According to Krozier's letter, kind of. They used the wrong protocol (of war) during time when war wasn't imminent. Or they implemented it incompetently.
Sort of the same disastruous results.

The incident needs to be investigated from all angles.

"1. lf required the USS TR would embark and be ready to fight and beat any adversary that dates challenge the US or our allies. The virus would certainly have an impact, but in combat we are willing to take certain risks that are not acceptable in peacetime.

However, we are not at war, and therefore cannot allow a single Sailor to perish as a result of this pandemic unnecessarily. Decisive action is required now in order to comply with CDC and NAVADMTN 083/20 guidance and prevent tragic outcomes.

"2. INAPPROPRIATE FOCUS ON TESTING

3. INAPPROPRIATE QUARANTINE AND ISOLATION
With the exceptions of a handful of senior officer staterooms, none of the berthing onboard a warship is appropriate for quarantine or isolation. ‘Thousands of “close contact" sailors require quarantine in accordance with guidance.

TR has begun to move personnel off ship into shore-based group restricted movement locations. Of the Off ship locations currently available, only one complies with the NAVADMIN guidance. Infected Sailors reside in these off ship locations. Two Sailors have already tested positive in an open bay gymnasium equipped with cots.

In order to stop the spread of the virus, the CDC and the Navy and Marine Corps Public Health Center both recommend (...) limited or no contact with other exposed individuals and no use of the same facilities or items exposed individuals have touched
NAVADMIN 083/20 cdtoes this guidance.

4. INEFFECTIVENNES OF CURRENT STRATEGY
The current strategy will only slow the spread. The current plan in execution on TR will not achieve virus eradication on any timeline.

 

[SpeareChucker]

His self-justification is beside the point.
He wants to make a case to cover his ass for
an action expressly forbidden by naval regulation.

 

[sygn]

What you're saying is that you are 100% his superiors did the right thing,
and nobody should look into it to make sure it's so.

 

[SpeareChucker]

What you're saying is that you are 100% his superiors did the right thing,
and nobody should look into it to make sure it's so.

No. I am absolutely not.
I am absolutely sure that when there is no adherence to chain of command
then every single soldier/sailor has the newfound right to disregard
orders and leadership that he does not agree with because
for the average military person, the only information
that is imparted to them is the information
retired for their assigned task.

The Captain, is short, as I alluded to earlier was one of two things
(and two things only) myopic or mutinous.
There is nothing else. He only knew
what he needed to know...

The only civilian who can call for an investigation
is the one the Left loves to hate,
so batten down the hatches.
If he does not call for other heads to roll
then Left is going to scream for his head,
again, as if they have ever abated in that.

 

[sygn]

No. I am absolutely not.
I am absolutely sure that when there is no adherence to chain of command
then every single soldier/sailor has the newfound right to disregard
orders and leadership that he does not agree with because
for the average military person, the only information
that is imparted to them is the information
retired for their assigned task.

The Captain, is short, as I alluded to earlier was one of two things
(and two things only) myopic or mutinous.
There is nothing else. He only knew
what he needed to know...

And I'm no longer disputing that, how many times do I need to say?

I'm just trying to address the other topic too:

It's written down, on paper, that his superiors acted incompetently, thus unnecessarily endangering the crew.
Imo it doesn't matter who said it or if we believe it, the cat's out of the bag and there need to be Two investigations: of Krozier And his superiors.

Mine is the view of a layperson, I want to hear the view of an ex-Army on that.

 

[SpeareChucker]

Why the Army when this is about the Navy?
No investigation is needed by civilians.
This was an internal Navy matter.
We must trust them for this
was an insurrection of one
and only one...

 

[hogjack]

We don't want to turn Venezuelan.

Inaccurate. 48% of Americans prefer the Venezuelan economic model.

So most of us don't want to turn Venezuelan. The others wait patiently for their monthly checks to arrive.

 

[SpeareChucker]

lol...

 

[Rightguide]

Inaccurate. 48% of Americans prefer the Venezuelan economic model.

So most of us don't want to turn Venezuelan. The others wait patiently for their monthly checks to arrive.

I see the Venezuelan Navy took on a cruise ship and was sunk. LOL:

Venezuelan warship shoots, rams into German cruise vessel before sinking
US indicted socialist Venezuelan president for narcotics operation with terrorists
By BENJAMIN WEINTHAL APRIL 3, 2020 10:39

https://www.jpost.com/International...to-German-cruise-vessel-before-sinking-623422

 

[KeithD]

WOW, 52 ignored hissy fit posts in a row, relieved by only one human response to the issue.

Customarily the investigation of something comes before the punishment phase, doesn't it?--except, I guess, in the Trump "administration." And the investigation and punishment phases should be applied up the chain of command parallel with that meted out to a unit commander shown on a video gone viral being cheered by his people, dontcha think?

 

[ishtat]

All of the 5,000 crew has been tested as of Saturday US time.

44 % have tested positive 1400+ have been taken on shore.

A lot more folks than the Captain are going to be on the hook for this colossal mess. Navy Secretary for one will have to answer why did he allow such a major component of US defence capability to be compromised?

Any more posters who want to offer another helping of stiff necked self-righteousness?

 

[KeithD]

A

A lot more folks than the Captain are going to be on the hook for this colossal mess.

I'm afraid that the point might be that this is the Trump "administration" and no one else is going to wind up on the hook except the captain.

 

[icanhelp1]

All of the 5,000 crew has been tested as of Saturday US time.

44 % have tested positive 1400+ have been taken on shore.

A lot more folks than the Captain are going to be on the hook for this colossal mess. Navy Secretary for one will have to answer why did he allow such a major component of US defence capability to be compromised?

Any more posters who want to offer another helping of stiff necked self-righteousness?

You don't get it! An investigation on how to protect the force will happen and changes will be made. Another investigation of why the vulnerability of a capital ship on the high seas was exposed to the media will also be conducted. I'm sure the topic of the chain of command will be thoroughly investigated. Just like the commander of the cole was fired, so be it. No one denies it's a tragic situations and no denies the captain acted in the best interest of his crew and no-one is begrudging the captain. He acted and his method was questionable. He jumped the chain of command.

44% of the crew were tested, unknown how many pos! 1548 sailors moved ashore and none hospitalized at this time.

When idiots blame Trump, they lose credibility and make fools of themselves. It is true Trump is the CiC, SO YAH; IT'S HIS FAULT, Reason OMB; STAGE 10 TDS

 

[RobDownSouth]

The next president should bestow the Presidential Medal of Freedom on Captain Crozier.

 

[Conager]

He is not a civilian.

He did not even lose rank.

 

[RobDownSouth]

He is not a civilian.

He did not even lose rank.

General Colin Powell
General Norman Schwarzkopf
Admiral Hyman Rickover
General Wesley Clark
General Vernon Walters

 

[colddiesel]

When the USS Cole was bombed it was investigated by the Judge Advocate. The Commander, Kirk Lippold was relieved of his command after the investigation and after the investigation had found that the restricted rules of engagement prevented any effective deterrent measures.

However, the GOP administration continued its vendetta against Lippold by refusing to approve his promotions which were recommended by the Navy for the next 5 years. Eventually in 2006 Secretary Winter issued an order that Lippolds name was not to be included on any future promotions list.

Ultimately situations like this are always politicised they are never just about 'chain of command' that contention is naive.

Crozier was sacked because he upset the politicians above him in the Navy and Defence Department. So maybe it was justified because he was dumb, but the 'chain of command ' codswallop is an excuse, especially absent a formal investigation.

 

[sygn]

You don't get it!

An investigation on how to protect the force will happen and changes will be made.

Another investigation of why the vulnerability of a capital ship on the high seas was exposed to the media will also be conducted.

I'm sure the topic of the chain of command will be thoroughly investigated. Just like the commander of the cole was fired, so be it.

No one denies it's a tragic situations and no denies the captain acted in the best interest of his crew and no-one is begrudging the captain. He acted and his method was questionable. He jumped the chain of command.

44% of the crew were tested, unknown how many pos! 1548 sailors moved ashore and none hospitalized at this time.

When idiots blame Trump, they lose credibility and make fools of themselves. It is true Trump is the CiC, SO YAH; IT'S HIS FAULT, Reason OMB; STAGE 10 TDS

Best answer.
Yes, I'm ignorant about the Army and said stupid things, but I don't like being treated like a fool.

I want Right leaning folks to address equally BOTH issues
--Crozier's leak endangered the Army
--his superiors might have acted incompetently
instead of deflecting++ on the latter.

Both sides on the GB use similar partisan tactics.