Tax the Rich?

[DawnODay]

The rich don't pay taxes. They avoid paying their taxes....

Uh... KeithD, you're simply wrong there:

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5 percent).

The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of total individual income taxes.​

A. Tanzi, Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016, Boomberg (Oct. 14, 2018). This isn't based on nominal rates. It is based on actual receipts.

 

[BaritoneTele]

As reported here, Trump has avoided paying taxes and says he does--just like the rest of the rich do in avoiding paying what the code claims they pay.

https://www.ajc.com/news/trump-gets-chance-for-tax-cut-moving-trademarks/iZBFIqAmXhM62j1aZoKthO/

Moving to a place with lower taxes is not tax evasion.

Millions do it every year, totally legally.

You still have not shown anything to support your claim that the rich as a class, don't pay taxes and the IRS is wrong.

Just a serious....serious .....obsession with Trump. You might want to get help for that.

 

[BaritoneTele]

Uh... KeithD, you're simply wrong there:

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5 percent).

The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of total individual income taxes.​

A. Tanzi, Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016, Boomberg (Oct. 14, 2018). This isn't based on nominal rates. It is based on actual receipts.

Looks like the rich folks and the gubbmint got receipts.

What does Keith have??

Trump moving to a different state for lower taxes.

As if that somehow proves rich people don't pay taxes.

 

[KeithD]

Uh... KeithD, you're simply wrong there:

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (37.3 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (30.5 percent).

The top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of total individual income taxes.​

A. Tanzi, Top 3% of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Majority of Income Tax in 2016, Boomberg (Oct. 14, 2018). This isn't based on nominal rates. It is based on actual receipts.

You're just pointing to the gross disparity between the rich and the poor. The point is that they don't pay anything close to what code says they should pay. I'm not rich, but I'm wealthy enough that I don't pay anything close to what my bracket says I pay. The tax laws are riddled with avoidance for those who have money.

And again, let's see Trump's tax returns. You'll have to admit then how it really happens. (But no, you're such a dumbed-down Trumpette that you won't admit anything.)

 

[gunthernehmen]

You're just pointing to the gross disparity between the rich and the poor. The point is that they don't pay anything close to what code says they should pay. I'm not rich, but I'm wealthy enough that I don't pay anything close to what my bracket says I pay. The tax laws are riddled with avoidance for those who have money.

And again, let's see Trump's tax returns. You'll have to admit then how it really happens. (But no, you're such a dumbed-down Trumpette that you won't admit anything.)

In his 2005 return he paid about $38,000,000 in taxes on about $48,000,000 in income. That's what... 80% tax rate?

Hillary paid about $5,500,000 on $18,000,000 that same year, which is about 30% tax rate which happens to be almost exactly the average effective tax rate paid by other wealthy Americans like her.

Why can you lefty loonies not realize that the rich DO pay taxes and usually at a higher rate than us peons?

Here, play with the numbers yourself if you want:

https://www.taxnotes.com/presidential-tax-returns

btw, there is NO law requiring presidents or presidential candidates to release their tax returns. But you probably know that... Sure. We'll go with that.

 

[dan_c00000]

In his 2005 return

Uh let's see in 2005 he wrote $100 million in losses. Yeah, 2005, the year after he filed for bankruptcy protection because he couldn't figure out to make money with his...casinos.

Sounds like your Orange Nazi hero is a fantastic business person!

 

[KeithD]

Uh let's see in 2005 he wrote $100 million in losses. Yeah, 2005, the year after he filed for bankruptcy protection because he couldn't figure out to make money with his...casinos.

Sounds like your Orange Nazi hero is a fantastic business person!

And all the time he was stuffing undeclared money under his mattress.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Uh let's see in 2005 he wrote $100 million in losses. Yeah, 2005, the year after he filed for bankruptcy protection because he couldn't figure out to make money with his...casinos.

Sounds like your Orange Nazi hero is a fantastic business person!

And what's your bank balance? (just round to the nearest billion, the "exact" number doesn't matter)

I didn't cherry pick the year - it was the only year where there was a tax return for him in the public record. Perhaps that bankruptcy is why it's available? My accountants deal with that stuff for me. I have no idea.

Even so, the supposed intent of the initial poster was to get rich people to pay their share in taxes, which clearly they do.

If you're just mad because they have more MONEY than you do, I do't know what to say. Take a look at the the net worth of all the top politicians in the country and you'll see just how little you make compared to any of them. Except maybe the freshman barmaid, AOC.

 

[dan_c00000]

And what's your bank balance?

it was the only year where there was a tax return for him in the public record

My current bank balance? Oh sure let me look, it's currently sea anemone. It was bassoon but it's gone up a bit.

Yes, that's the only year available for him. Geez, I wonder why that is?

 

[gunthernehmen]

My current bank balance? Oh sure let me look, it's currently sea anemone. It was bassoon but it's gone up a bit.

Yes, that's the only year available for him. Geez, I wonder why that is?

Chances are it's because that's the only return he released.

Look, if there was so much as a misplaced hyphen on his return don't you think we'd know by now, even if we didn't see the return? Can you imagine the scrutiny his tax returns get at the IRS?

I get that you're mad about so much wealth belonging to one man but it's his. And what is yours is yours. And what is mine is the banks. Just the way it is.

There is no law compelling him to release his returns. If others have, that's up to them.

 

[DawnODay]

You're just pointing to the gross disparity between the rich and the poor. The point is that they don't pay anything close to what code says they should pay. I'm not rich, but I'm wealthy enough that I don't pay anything close to what my bracket says I pay. The tax laws are riddled with avoidance for those who have money.

I suggest you reread what you just wrote.

You just argued that by following the tax laws, they are somehow not paying what the tax laws say they should pay.

In fact, no one pays the amount of taxes indicated by their "bracket." There are several reasons for this. First, and please don't tell me you didn't realize this, the brackets are graduated.

What Are the Tax Brackets?, HRB Digital (accessed Mar. 20, 2019).

This means, for example, that if you file as an individual, you pay 10% on your first $9,524 in taxable income, 12% on your next $29,174 in taxable income ($9,525 though $38,699), 24% on your next $43,799 in taxable income ($38,700 though $82,499), etc. This is true whether you make $100,000 per year or $100,000,000 per year.

Second, these brackets apply after various exemptions and deductions. Thus there is a chunk of your income that is not at all subject to income taxes. Generally, that chunk of untaxed income is a far larger percentage of total income for poorer people than for wealthier people. Indeed, this is why more than 44% of workers end up paying no federal income tax at all.

Approximately 76.4 million or 44.4% of Americans won’t pay any federal income tax in 2018, up from 72.6 million people or 43.2% in 2016 before President Trump’s Tax Cuts and Jobs Act....

These workers who won’t owe any federal income tax include single people, married couples filing jointly and married individuals not filing jointly....​

Q. Fottrell, More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax, MSN (Feb. 15, 2019).

So, you're right, there is a "gross disparity between the rich and the poor" when it comes to paying taxes. The rich already pay far more than their proportional share of income taxes. I agree we should remedy this and have that currently untaxed 44% start paying their fair share.

 

[dan_c00000]

Chances are it's because

It's because a couple of reasons primarily he's hiding how much money he owes and to whom. His tax return was only 2 pages. Check out any of the other candidates, they're significantly longer. Hell, check out your own. I'm going to beat it's at least 10 pages and that's if you don't do any fancy deductions.

What you, and racist dawn, are missing that Trump doesn't want people to see his tax returns because, chances are, he's not as rich as he says he is and two he's done stuff that while maybe not illegal is definitely shady and definitely involve sketchy bank deals.

 

[gunthernehmen]

It's because a couple of reasons primarily he's hiding how much money he owes and to whom. His tax return was only 2 pages. Check out any of the other candidates, they're significantly longer. Hell, check out your own. I'm going to beat it's at least 10 pages and that's if you don't do any fancy deductions.

What you, and racist dawn, are missing that Trump doesn't want people to see his tax returns because, chances are, he's not as rich as he says he is and two he's done stuff that while maybe not illegal is definitely shady and definitely involve sketchy bank deals.

Mine is around 10 pages, but the meat of it is two.

I flatly disbelieve that his return is not scrutinized with a fine toothed comb every year. He's the last person on Earth that could get away with so much as a shaky deduction for dry cleaning. It's far more reasonable to believe that releasing his returns would provide competitors with information to use against him (in business) either now, when he is legally unable to manage his business or later when he resumes running Trump Inc in six years.

Why not release his returns since everyone else does?

He is the first president since George Washington that actually has a real job apart from being a politician. Warren's only worry is hiding the whole Indian fiasco. Bernie has his house. Trump is going back to work in a few years.

 

[dan_c00000]

Mine is around 10 pages

And yet Trump with a global empire of shitty ties only has two. And you find nothing suspious about that because...?

He is the first president since George Washington that actually has a real job

Here's a random listing of "real jobs" various presidents have had off the top of my head:

Woodrow Wilson: President of Princeton University
Harry Truman: Ran a clothing store
Obama: Law professor at University of Chicago
Herbert Hoover: Mining company executive
George Bush II: Various businesses, he was also part-owner of the Texas Rangers

You really need to read a basic book on U.S. history. I highly recommend David Reynold's America, Empire of Liberty.

 

[gunthernehmen]

And yet Trump with a global empire of shitty ties only has two. And you find nothing suspious about that because...?



Here's a random listing of "real jobs" various presidents have had off the top of my head:

Woodrow Wilson: President of Princeton University
Harry Truman: Ran a clothing store
Obama: Law professor at University of Chicago
Herbert Hoover: Mining company executive
George Bush II: Various businesses, he was also part-owner of the Texas Rangers

You really need to read a basic book on U.S. history. I highly recommend David Reynold's America, Empire of Liberty.

Oh come on, of course I was exaggerating for effect. Without checking the comparative net worth of all the presidents I'm confident that Trump's business interests are a good bit more extensive than any of the others.

My tax return is ten pages because of several schedules for investment income and so on. The core of the return where those forms funnel into a line item or two is only a couple of pages. So one would presume he released that and not the supporting detail. I honestly don't know what level of detail is required in filing a bankruptcy, assuming that's why that particular return was released.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I suggest you reread what you just wrote.

You just argued that by following the tax laws, they are somehow not paying what the tax laws say they should pay.

In fact, no one pays the amount of taxes indicated by their "bracket." There are several reasons for this. First, and please don't tell me you didn't realize this, the brackets are graduated.

What Are the Tax Brackets?, HRB Digital (accessed Mar. 20, 2019).

This means, for example, that if you file as an individual, you pay 10% on your first $9,524 in taxable income, 12% on your next $29,174 in taxable income ($9,525 though $38,699), 24% on your next $43,799 in taxable income ($38,700 though $82,499), etc. This is true whether you make $100,000 per year or $100,000,000 per year.

Second, these brackets apply after various exemptions and deductions. Thus there is a chunk of your income that is not at all subject to income taxes. Generally, that chunk of untaxed income is a far larger percentage of total income for poorer people than for wealthier people. Indeed, this is why more than 44% of workers end up paying no federal income tax at all.

Approximately 76.4 million or 44.4% of Americans won’t pay any federal income tax in 2018, up from 72.6 million people or 43.2% in 2016 before President Trump’s Tax Cuts and Jobs Act....

These workers who won’t owe any federal income tax include single people, married couples filing jointly and married individuals not filing jointly....​

Q. Fottrell, More than 44% of Americans pay no federal income tax, MSN (Feb. 15, 2019).

So, you're right, there is a "gross disparity between the rich and the poor" when it comes to paying taxes. The rich already pay far more than their proportional share of income taxes. I agree we should remedy this and have that currently untaxed 44% start paying their fair share.

I would suggest you do not understand the meaning of the words "fair" or "proportional" .

 

[gunthernehmen]

I would suggest you do not understand the meaning of the words "fair" or "proportional" .

Your side wants the "rich" to pay more in taxes than the "poor".

Clearly they do.

Just take the win already! LOL

 

[dan_c00000]

Trump's business interests are a good bit more extensive than any of the others.

And yet only two pages. When the NFL took a look at Trump's finances they clearly saw something in there that was suspect. Not to mention all the other stunts Trump pulled in pretending to buy the team. That is, of course, just the tip of the iceberg.

This is what you Trumpkins do though isn't it? Defend your own, accuse, lie, be racist as fuck, whatever it takes, right? Meanwhile your Orange Nazi hero is selling out farmers, blowing up the deficit, and smaller tax refunds. I didn't even bring up the actual white supremacist shit because that stuff is self-evident at this point. But it's good to know you're actively defending someone who hates those that are most vulnerable.

 

[gunthernehmen]

And yet only two pages. When the NFL took a look at Trump's finances they clearly saw something in there that was suspect. Not to mention all the other stunts Trump pulled in pretending to buy the team. That is, of course, just the tip of the iceberg.

This is what you Trumpkins do though isn't it? Defend your own, accuse, lie, be racist as fuck, whatever it takes, right? Meanwhile your Orange Nazi hero is selling out farmers, blowing up the deficit, and smaller tax refunds. I didn't even bring up the actual white supremacist shit because that stuff is self-evident at this point. But it's good to know you're actively defending someone who hates those that are most vulnerable.

We had a good string of dialog going there. Can we just stop with the racist stuff, please?

The question at hand is in this thread is "should / are the rich taxed more than the poor". Clearly this IS the case. It's boldly shown in the stats that have been repeatedly posted in this thread.

Trump and his tax return. Well first, obviously there is no law compelling him to release his taxes. There is a custom of doing so but custom <> law. So he simply doesn't have to. If there was anything substantially "wrong" with his returns, of all people, Trump's return would be scrutinized by the experts at IRS. If he'd broken the law it would be known.

Trump and the NFL. Businesses look at more and different things than whether the law is scrupulously followed. It could have been for ANY reason that NFL didn't like the return or something about the deal.

Trump the Person. You have me there. Trump is an asshole. No getting around it. And the hair. Jesus. Still, he IS the President and will be for somewhere between 2 and 6 more years.

 

[dan_c00000]

Can we just stop with the racist stuff, please?

No because you, dawn, bot, "joe" etc. need to be reminded that you are racists. That you support racist policies and enable other racists. Your racism causes violence both here in the U.S. and globally. You need to be reminded of that everyday and if you can't handle it stop being fucking racist.

That wasn't the question. The question was "Should the wealthy be taxed to feed the poor until they are rich no more?" And the answer has been, and always will be, yes.

 

[gunthernehmen]

No because you, dawn, bot, "joe" etc. need to be reminded that you are racists. That you support racist policies and enable other racists. Your racism causes violence both here in the U.S. and globally. You need to be reminded of that everyday and if you can't handle it stop being fucking racist.

That wasn't the question. The question was "Should the wealthy be taxed to feed the poor until they are rich no more?" And the answer has been, and always will be, yes.

But I'm not racist. I can't speak for the others. I don't support racist policies nor enable racists. Other than a little road rage I cause no violence either here nor abroad. Some of the leadership of my country has caused some violence, but they don't listen to my concerns. I can't stop being what I'm not.

I can't imagine why you think the rich should pay for the poor's food until they're poor too. That makes no sense except to a socialist (which is, by the way, another word for racist).

Dan, I'm sorry to say but the only person I've seen express racist views here is you. If you want to confront racism, look in the mirror.

Just out of curiosity, do you have a job or are you supported by someone else? I'm assuming you have your hand out for some of that food?

 

[dan_c00000]

do you have a job

Ah the "real racist" card! Was wondering when you would play that. A classic racist move. Look, I'm sorry you're so butt hurt over your own racism but, like I said, stop being a racist. I dunno what else to tell you, racist.

I do have a job! I'm President, CEO, and Founder of Vandelay Industries.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Ah the "real racist" card! Was wondering when you would play that. A classic racist move. Look, I'm sorry you're so butt hurt over your own racism but, like I said, stop being a racist. I dunno what else to tell you, racist.

I do have a job! I'm President, CEO, and Founder of Vandelay Industries.

What exactly does "do you have a job" have to do with racism?

Are you suggesting that only minorities are jobless? That perfectly illustrates YOUR racism. Let me guess, you'll quote this message changed to read "I'm a racist!" and then you'll claim you owned me again (another racist term, by the way).

No, I was simply trying to understand why you want other people to pay for your food and I suppose your other basic needs as well.

Glad to hear you're doing so well. I guess you'll be one of those paying more in taxes as opposed to receiving free stuff. Right?

 

[DawnODay]

I would suggest you do not understand the meaning of the words "fair" or "proportional" .

You can suggest it but, when 1 percent of earners pay 37.3 percent of the tax and 44.4 percent of earners pay none of the tax at all, the numbers conclusively refute your suggestion.

 

[jaF0]

Here's a novel idea. Stop raiding corporate coffers for personal use. Leave the money in the company instead of taking it home to buy yachts. Pay employees more. Pay your damn property taxes instead of deducting every little thing so communities have enough money to fix roads and other essential things. Reduce prices so more people can buy your stuff.