The Reality of Socialized Medicine

[dan_c00000]

No, I'm saying government control over the exchange of goods and services can and usually goes too far.

You're contradicting yourself. Not to mention lying about your true, racist beliefs.

And you still haven't answered my question: how come these countries with more government control over health care and guns be more free, according to the right wing Heritage and Cato think tanks, than the US?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not even you can possibly believe that. That's 19th Century thinking.

I absolutely do and no it's not, it's general western liberal minded/capitalistic M'arican thinking.

More so, actually, in that both individuals and American society as a whole would be spending a great deal less on health care and getting the same service.

Yet prices go up every time Congress so much as says the words "Health care reform" . Much like education and other various markets HC was significantly cheaper before the US government started half assedly fiddle fucking with it.

They (both parties) have had clear and open chances, again and again and again and TOTALLY dropped the ball on HC reform especially with regard to cost control every fuckin' time.

Neither party will shit or get the fuck off the pot, they have both refused, despite repeated opportunity to prove otherwise, for the better part of a century.

No form of "freedom" that tends in the opposite direction from that is worth having, even to you.

There you go all authoritarian trying to tell me what I think.

Why are you lefties such over the top control freaks?

You're trying to measure the whole to the individual again.

Yes I support maximum freedom from being responsible for the personal problems of those around me and for those around me to also be free from my personal bullshit.

I'm fine sharing F-22's, trash and fire trucks. Medical bills? Not so much.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You're contradicting yourself.

How so?

Not to mention lying about your true, racist beliefs.

Which would be??

And you still haven't answered my question: how come these countries with more government control over health care and guns be more free, according to the right wing Heritage and Cato think tanks, than the US?

Quoted and DIRECTLY answered...learn to fucking read.

 

[dan_c00000]

Quoted and DIRECTLY answered...learn to fucking read.

No you didn't answer my question. Either government control is bad (which you say constantly all the time because it limits "freedom") or government control is good.

I've just shown you two lists put together by right wing think tanks that disagree with and ruin your whole argument.

So now tell us bot is government control good or bad? You can't see to keep your answer straight. When the government is giving poor black/brown people money you're very against (racist) but when the government gives money to CEO you're very much for it. So racist bot tell us your answer.

And FYI I've linked to a million previous posts where you've said racist things. Also, you're a racist and therefore everything you say is racist.

Going to be a shitty weekend for you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No you didn't answer my question. Either government control is bad (which you say constantly all the time because it limits "freedom") or government control is good.

It's not that simple.

I've just shown you two lists put together by right wing think tanks that disagree with and ruin your whole argument.

No, they don't.

So now tell us bot is government control good or bad?

Depends but usually bad.

When the government is giving poor black/brown people money you're very against (racist) but when the government gives money to CEO you're very much for it. So racist bot tell us your answer.

When have I ever supported government giving money to CEO's??


I've expressly condemned such actions since forever.

And FYI I've linked to a million previous posts where you've said racist things. Also, you're a racist and therefore everything you say is racist.

Going to be a shitty weekend for you.

Your claims aren't things I've said and that's not how definitions work bubba.

 

[Kirkrapine]

No you didn't answer my question. Either government control is bad (which you say constantly all the time because it limits "freedom") or government control is good.

Well, it really depends on circumstances.

 

[dan_c00000]

When have I ever supported government giving money to CEO's??

I've expressly condemned such actions since forever.

More dodging. Would you like me to link to posts? I've done that before and you tried lying your racist way out of it.

Well, it really depends on circumstances.

Not to bot. The government is always bad unless it's busy giving money to already rich white people, then it's good.

 

[CandiCame]

I did not mean to "ignore the facts," nor do I think I did. In part, it is a difference between vocabulary and perspectives in the UK vs. the USA.

First, we are using the word "government" differently. As I understand it, you're using the word "government" to mean the current set of ministers, including the PM. You distinguish this from the courts. In the USA, the word "government" is more encompassing, and includes the courts. Instead of "government," let's refer to the "power of the state."

As for whether the decision was made under the auspices of the NHS or some other law, it matters little. In the USA, such life and death decisions are generally left to the parents, not the "power of the state." As it goes in our founding document:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.​

In the USA it is for individuals, not the "power of the state," to decide how and when to live.

Meanwhile, in the UK under socialized medicine: "Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors have warned." K. Devlin, Sentenced to death on the NHS, Telegraph (Jun. 20, 2018).

It's so weird to me that you think the self-evident truth that all men are created equal somehow means "Parents are allowed to do whatever they want to their kids. Never shall any government agency intervene on behalf of sick children who's parents are making bad decisions. Never shall any third party government-funded child-advocates be involved: no social workers or the entire system of Child Protective Services shall be established. PARENTS KNOW BEST."

Like... the fuck are you on about?

That's... for everyone who doesn't live in the states who is reading this- we're not like that. That's not how we roll here. We very much do have government oversight that controls parental medical decisions. Now sometimes that government oversight goes boner-bannanas because we live in a representative republic that will literally let you vote on CRAZY shit that you have no business voting on like whether or not you have to vaccinate your kids- but it's not, "Medical decisions are literally left up to the parents". If you want to fuck up your kid, you have to have a "good" reason for doing so.

In my community, there's an epidemic of faith healers (Google it, the feds literally consider it an epidemic) and under the current law, parents are literally allowed to refuse the service of medical professionals with religious justification (because it falls under "freedom of religion".) A SHITTON of lawyers have organized to fight this, because this shit is getting BAD. And... kids aren't capable of signing DNR forms. Kids can't really consent to a slow painful death that could have been prevented. Child advocates are appalled that we have allowed this to happen.

This isn't a problem socialized medicine can fix, btw. I'm not saying that- because it's not an issue of finances, it's an issue of "I should be allowed to neglect my kid to death because Jesus" and "Nah, dude, you really shouldn't". It really is an issue of personal liberty (of the parents, again, the child can't act in their own best interests because they can't be assigned an advocate the way they can for other forms of neglect) vs government oversight.

I'm with Uncle Sam on this one. And it's pretty damn rare that me and Sammy agree on anything.

On the subject of socialized medicine and making appointments- I really don't know how the hell it can be worse than our current system. It's already a pain in the ass to get a kid in for surgery, or to get their shots, or to get their teeth fixed, or for their 5 million ear infections, or to get tubes put in their ears, or to figure out WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH HER EARS GODDAMN IT'S NOT NORMAL I NEED A SPECIALIST WHY IS THE ONLY SPECIALIST 2 HOURS AWAY.

Not that I'm salty or anything but seriously why are there NO oral surgeons for several counties? And why do oral surgeons fix ears? That's not what oral means. That should be an aural surgeon.

 

[dan_c00000]

Your claims aren't things I've said

Here's you getting your racist ass handed to you by me.

Here's you getting your ass handed to you by Lincoln (and lying about guns).

Here's you declaring, unequivocally, that attempting any amount of control over anything by the government is bad (and getting your ass handed to you by jaF0).

Here's phrodeau handing you your ass because you don't know how to read.

Here's robb handing you your ass because you claim taxes are theft.

Here's me destroying your ass about dodging posts and being a racist.

I sense a rage quit coming on for you, racist.

 

[BotanyBoy]

More dodging.

You not liking the answer isn't me dodging.

Where have I ever advocated government giving CEO's money?

Would you like me to link to posts? I've done that before and you tried lying your racist way out of it.

Fail....link it right so we can all see you lying.

Not to bot. The government is always bad unless it's busy giving money to already rich white people, then it's good.

More lies, I don't support any government administration over the distribution of goods and services, that's you who does that.

Here's you getting your racist ass handed to you by me.

Here's you getting your ass handed to you by Lincoln (and lying about guns).

Here's you declaring, unequivocally, that attempting any amount of control over anything by the government is bad (and getting your ass handed to you by jaF0).

Here's phrodeau handing you your ass because you don't know how to read.

Here's robb handing you your ass because you claim taxes are theft.

Here's me destroying your ass about dodging posts and being a racist.

I sense a rage quit coming on for you, racist.

And none of that backs up any of your bullshit, which is why you had to add your own narrative on top of a link instead of just posting what was on the other end of said link.

You're full of shit and you can't back any of it up.

 

[dan_c00000]

I got fucking ruined!

Yeah you did. Poor racist bot. Can't even deal with the consequences of having his own words thrown back in his face. Poor racist, triggered bot.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/sounds-like-someone-5ab911.jpg

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yeah you did. Poor racist bot. Can't even deal with the consequences of having his own words thrown back in his face. Poor racist, triggered bot.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/sounds-like-someone-5ab911.jpg

Oh yea Dan, you totally "won"

Maybe after you're done with your hissy fit you'll be able to find an example of me being racist or advocating government administered wealth redistribution of any kind much less along racial lines.

 

[wizzard426]

Let me help. I'm willing to let you take care of you. I will take care of me.

That way we can have peace. If you want to steal from me, then we have a problem.

I would ask that you not try that. It scares the duckies and bunnies when there is a ruckus.

I don't care if an entire village of orphans and nuns die of the mange.

Not one thin red cent.

I like my health care, as I please. I like it high quality. I like it exclusive.

Why should I wait in line or contribute to your miserable dismal existence?

Here, commies, let me help. Just think if it as an abortion or whatever genocidal excuse it takes to help you sleep at night.

Or, go cry to Soros, Branson or some other 1% poser.

 

[Kirkrapine]

So you're saying that guns are bad?

Only if government agents are holding them.

 

[DawnODay]

ObamaCare was a massive, colossal failure.

Nothing worked as promised. Family premiums didn't go down, they went up. In fact, the rate of increase in employer premiums has been 4% since 2013, well above the inflation rate.

Premiums in the individual insurance market more than doubled in ObamaCare's first four years. Those massive price hikes forced millions of families out of the insurance market altogether. ObamaCare premiums for a family in Virginia would be more than $2,000 a month for those who aren't eligible for ObamaCare subsidies.

Even the 8 million or so who get ObamaCare subsidies can still find health care unaffordable. That's because the ObamaCare plans typically come with gargantuan deductibles — family plans in Virginia have deductibles ranging up to $14,000. And they feature highly restrictive provider networks. In many ObamaCare plans, if you go outside these narrow networks, you get no coverage at all.

Far from "bending the cost curve down," national health expenditures continue to outpace economic growth. The year before ObamaCare went into effect, health spending accounted for 17.2% of GDP. This year, it will likely come in at 18.2%, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. (In the four years before ObamaCare went into effect, health spending as a share of GDP actually went down.)​

On Health Costs, ObamaCare Was A Massive Failure, IBD/TIPP Poll Shows, Investor's Business Daily (Dec. 3, 2018).

 

[NickStJohn]

<<<<<

 

[oggbashan]

So what do you propose is better than Obamacare?

Almost any European system, and the UK's NHS isn't necessarily the best of them.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

So what do you propose is better than Obamacare?

They can't ever say.

But trying to take away ObamaCare (codeswitched to "ACA" for the low-wattage Obama-hating nimrods) from everyone who voted for Cheeto because they thought Cheeto was just going to fuck over the freeloading brownies and leave the temporarily embarrassed millionaire whites alone didn't seem to pan out so well!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxpj6grFIe1qcaomb.gif

 

[DawnODay]

So what do you propose is better than Obamacare?

Free market competition will increase quality and drive down prices.

Meanwhile:

A Kaiser Family Foundation poll out this week found that 56% say they favor "Medicare for all." That looks like great news for Democrats, who have been eagerly jumping on board the "Medicare for all" bandwagon.

But this poll result is wildly misleading, since not even Democrats have any idea what they're endorsing. And when the public learns what "Medicare for all" actually means, support vanishes....

But when the Kaiser poll told them that "Medicare for all" would eliminate private insurance companies, support collapsed. Just 37% said they back it knowing it would mean getting rid of their existing health plans....

Likewise, when the Kaiser poll said that "Medicare for all" would "require most Americans to pay more in taxes," support also collapsed. Just 37% said they back it....

Most revealing, the poll also found that a mere 26% said they'd support "Medicare for all" if it "leads to delays in people getting some medical tests and treatments."​

The Public Loves 'Medicare For All' … Until They Learn What's In It, Investor's Business Daily (Jan. 23, 2019).

 

[oggbashan]

Free market competition will increase quality and drive down prices.

...

That has worked so well in the US, hasn't it?

 

[jaF0]

a life of permanent disability and dependency, whether long or short, is not worth living.

I agree. Completely.


And shuttup BB.

 

[jaF0]

A Kaiser Family Foundation poll

Gee, Big MedCo doesn't want anything to challenge Big MedCo. Color me surprised.


Oh, and shuttup BB.

 

[just4friends]

Jesus!
Add up all the money that corporations and businesses spend on healthcare.
Tax everyone and put all that money to work rather than sitting in insurance companies pockets

Who likes the current system? Follow the money

Cut out fraud ? Yes. Most of that is from those with the money

Sometimes the rest of the world is wiser than we are
They use the metric system

Other countries can read their constitutions. Legislators create law. Executives execute the law. “Yo Mitch! Do your f’ing job!”

Socialism scare you? We have never had a real leftist scare here. We have had those with money scare us about the left.

Raise your hand if anyone in your family has been on a death march!!
No? Then STFU. Russians are back to their old ways and Trump can’t get his tongue deep enough! Why? $$$$$$$$

Both sides do mass executions

 

[phrodeau]

That has worked so well in the US, hasn't it?

Hasn't been tried. Pharma prevents generics from getting to consumers. EMT's deliver to the hospitals that pay them. Seek a second opinion for treatment, and discover that you can only afford an acupuncturist.

 

[magicalmoments]

Here is the inevitable reality of state-run health care and what happen when government bureaucrats and bean-counters make your medical decisions for you:

The heart of the problem is that, according to the UK courts' interpretation of the Children Act of 1989, a life of permanent disability and dependency, whether long or short, is not worth living. The UK High Court "root(ed)" its opinion in the ethical guidance of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, which asserts that "it is no longer in the child's best interests to continue (living)" in those cases "where the severity of the child's condition is such that it is difficult or impossible for them to derive benefit from continued life." Because of his disability, Alfie's very life was deemed no longer beneficial to him. And therefore it was declared illegal to keep him alive.

This decision reflects a profound, indeed lethal intolerance of dependence and disability. But it is even worse than that. Just as in the Charlie Gard case, the courts here effectively terminated the rights of Alfie's parents, forbidding them to seek transfer to other facilities that wished to care for Alfie. Both Pope Francis and the Italian government pled for Alfie's life, going as far as to make him an honorary Italian citizen and offering air transport to a pediatric hospital in Rome. But the UK government refused.

What began with a hospital's deadly policy against a child with apparently permanent disabilities ended with a shocking totalitarian intervention by the state, annihilating his parents' rights in order to ensure Alfie's demise.​

O. Carter Snead, The Alfie Evans case is straight out of a dystopia, CNN (Apr. 29, 2018).

You wouldn't know shit from clay.