Using basic terms incorrectly...

[BotanyBoy]

In modern democracies, socialism is more typically associated with the left wing. But there is nothing in principle that prevents socialism from being right wing. Just as the Nazis exemplified.

In that case you're also saying that free market capitalism can also be left wing?

What to you then is the difference between the left and the right?

 

[Freudian_Slit]

In that case you're also saying that free market capitalism can also be left wing?

What to you then is the difference between the left and the right?

Left wing and right wing have more to do with social structures, egalitarianism or the absence thereof. The spectrum is related to, but not identical with, the economic spectrum.

That's why this thread is so amusing.

 

[richard_daily]

No I'm not, I'm going off the commonly held definition found in just about every political science textbook and dictionary in the last century.

Bullshit.

Post an example of any politician science text book that supports what you're claiming.

If Regulations that tell people what to do aren't government control then what are they??

Look it up in the dictionary. Are executive orders "socialist"? If so, start calling Trump a socialist... otherwise, stop making up your own definitions.

Ok I'm glad we can agree that racism isn't a RW characteristic, because there is a BUNCH of it on the left too.

A "bunch", huh?

 

[richard_daily]

Left wing and right wing have more to do with social structures, egalitarianism or the absence thereof. The spectrum is related to, but not identical with, the economic spectrum.

That's why this thread is so amusing.

I've already told him that, but he wants to insist on using his own invented definition instead.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Bullshit.

Post an example of any politician science text book that supports what you're claiming.

The definition of socialism?

Bubba I'm not here to spoon feed you 5th grade civics.

Look it up in the dictionary.

So you're not going to answer it because you like everyone with an IQ over room temperature knows and understands that government regulation is government control.

That's why there is sooooooo much contention and even violence surrounding those regulations.

Are executive orders "socialist"?

They can be...

If so, start calling Trump a socialist... otherwise, stop making up your own definitions.

Oh he's a much bigger lefty than (D)'s like to pretend.

The guy loves government control over shit, he's much closer to the organized crime model of the left than a free market capitalist.

I'm not making up my own definitions.

A "bunch", huh?

Every single supporter of Affirmative Action.

 

[Hypoxia]

Binary logic isn't good at modeling analog reality, not unless it's running soft-logic simulations at gigahertz speed. The world doesn't work on good-bad right-wrong black-white true-false dichotomies.

And politics is more than left-vs-right-wings. For example: Environmentalism is not a "left-wing" issue; many politically-conservative hunters are ardent conservationists. Recreational drug use and unorthodox sex aren't "left-wing"; many conservatives don't want gov't watching them. Gun control is an issue when folks you hate arm themselves. Reagan instituted gun control in California after Black Panthers with shotguns sat on the state capitol steps. Yup, right-wingers against the Second.

Socialism, communism, Nazism, liberalism, conservatism, reaction, radicalism, racism, feminism, conservationism, corporatism, anarchism, feudalism -- these don't plot well on a one-dimensional axis. The world is more complex. Assholes abound in all directions. But those labeled alt.right seem to super-cluster negative shit, and self-destructive.

 

[richard_daily]

The definition of socialism?

Bubba I'm not here to spoon feed you 5th grade civics.

No.. Let me slow it down. You claimed a false definition of what left and right ideologies were. I asked you to show any valid definition that backed up your claim. You're refusing to do so, and you're now changing the subject.

 

[Que]

Tomorrow on Dick's Daily Word, he will (actually not) explain how the common understanding of up and down are "incorrect."

 

[richard_daily]

I'm not making up my own definitions.

You are... and you refuse to acknowledge it, or post any proof that backs up any of your definitions...

You're misusing in this thread: socialism, left and right ideologies, and a couple of other terms as well.

Either show and prove, or stop using these words incorrectly.

 

[Freudian_Slit]

Tomorrow on Dick's Daily Word, he will (actually not) explain how the common understanding of up and down are "incorrect."

You're such a weaselly little cross dresser.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Left wing and right wing have more to do with social structures, egalitarianism or the absence thereof. The spectrum is related to, but not identical with, the economic spectrum.

Ok.

I've already told him that, but he wants to insist on using his own invented definition instead.

I'm not using my own invented definition.

I'm using a different political spectrum map than the "warm fuzzies on the left and big meanies on the right!" model you're clinging too.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You are... and you refuse to acknowledge it, or post any proof that backs up any of your definitions...

I quit posting things for people to ignore or dismiss a long time ago.

I'm not here to spoon feed you the basics.

You're misusing in this thread: socialism, left and right ideologies, and a couple of other terms as well.

Either show and prove, or stop using these words incorrectly.

I did not misuse any of those words.

You're just ignorant, that's why you think Soviet Russia was right wing and regulations aren't government control......you're a fucking moron.

 

[jaF0]

Tomorrow on Dick's Daily Word, he will (actually not) explain how the common understanding of up and down are "incorrect."

Depends on whether or not you're in Australia.

 

[richard_daily]

I quit posting things for people to ignore or dismiss a long time ago.

I'm not here to spoon feed you the basics.

Your definitions don't exist in the established world.

That's the point of this thread.

You're using your own invented versions, and you refuse to show where you're getting your definitions from. You're claiming they're in "every political science textbook", but they aren't. I am willing to bet you $100 to that effect.

Want to take me up on that? or are you ready to admit that you're making them up?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Your definitions don't exist in the established world.

LOL yes they do.

Unless your definition of "the established world" is......Salon's op-ed conference room.

You're using your own invented versions, and you refuse to show where you're getting your definitions from.

No I'm not.

Go look in a dictionary, that's where I'm getting my definition from.

You're claiming they're in "every political science textbook", but they aren't. I am willing to bet you $100 to that effect.

Want to take me up on that? or are you ready to admit that you're making them up?

Ohhhhhh a hollow bet!!! I love it.

I'll bet you a MILLION@! WHOOOOOO!!

I'll do that right after you answer my question that you keep dodging.

If regulation isn't a governments effective means of exerting control ......then what is it?

 

[oggbashan]

The Oxford Dictionary and Merrian-Webster do not agree:

OXFORD

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/socialism

Definition of socialism in English:

socialism
noun
mass noun

1 A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

1.1 Policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.

1.2 (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

MERRIAM-WEBSTER

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Definition of socialism

1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private propertyb : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

I have underlined the significant difference. By the Oxford definition the US Government practises socialism in that they regulate the means of production, distribution and exchange.

No government except perhaps North Korea practises or aims for the second definition of socialism by the Merriam-Webster version.

 

[richard_daily]

No I'm not.

Go look in a dictionary, that's where I'm getting my definition from.

Which dictionary. Because the definitions in there don't line up with what you're claiming.

If regulation isn't a governments effective means of exerting control ......then what is it?

It's a regulation. It's not "socialism", it's not "left wing", it's a regulation.

Here is the definition. Note the absence of the word "socialism" anywhere in it.

noun
1.
a law, rule, or other order prescribed by authority, especially to regulate conduct.
2.
the act of regulating or the state of being regulated.
3.
Machinery. the percentage difference in some quantity related to the operation of an apparatus or machine, as the voltage output of a transformer or the speed of a motor, between the value of the quantity at no-load operation and its value at full-load operation.


So where's your definition that states that a regulation is socialism?

Which dictionary are you using?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Which dictionary. Because the definitions in there don't line up with what you're claiming.

OED, MW....Britannica.

It's a regulation. It's not "socialism", it's not "left wing", it's a regulation.

I never said regulation was inherently socialism or left wing.

I said it was government control, because it is.

Left, right or otherwise is dependent upon it's content.

Here is the definition. Note the absence of the word "socialism" anywhere in it.

noun
1.
a law, rule, or other order prescribed by authority, especially to regulate conduct.

VERY GOOD!!

And is that not the Primary means of effective control for any and all forms of government?

Regulation is the law being enforced by government agents by force of violence and or the threat of some kind of punitive measures. \

Do/Don't do this or that or we come fuck your life up.

That is the basic, fundamental mechanism of government control, correct?

Do we agree on that?

So where's your definition that states that a regulation is socialism?

Which dictionary are you using?

And I never claimed that regulation is socialism.

Just that it CAN be if it's controlling the means of production, distribution and or exchange of goods and services.

Oxford English Dictionary.

socialism
NOUN

mass noun
1A political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/socialism


For example.

Law: Don't murder people = not socialism.

Law: You have to sell your products to these people for this price = socialism.

 

[oggbashan]

...

Fro example.

Law: Don't murder people = not socialism.

Law: You have to sell your products to these people for this price = socialism.

Second example is wrong.

Law: You must not sell defective or dangerous products = socialism by regulation by OED definition.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Second example is wrong.

Law: You must not sell defective or dangerous products = socialism by regulation by OED definition.

It doesn't say what kind of regulations or ownership....just that government regulation/ownership over this aspect of society (the economy) is socialism.

And pretty much every definition of it that I can find while some might be worded slightly differently they are all fundamentally the same. Government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.

From what I can tell both examples your and mine are socialism according to both the OED and the rest of the most commonly held definitions of the word.

 

[oggbashan]

It doesn't say what kind of regulations or ownership....just that government regulation/ownership over this aspect of society (the economy) is socialism.

And pretty much every definition of it that I can find while some might be worded slightly differently they are all fundamentally the same. Government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services.

From what I can tell both examples your and mine are socialism according to both the OED and the rest of the most commonly held definitions of the word.

But as I said above: NO government (except North Korea) exercises complete control over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services. There are NO socialist governments (except North Korea).

So when you suggest people are socialists? Who are you addressing? No one (except North Korea) advocates socialism.

 

[richard_daily]

I never said regulation was inherently socialism or left wing.

I said it was government control, because it is.

Left, right or otherwise is dependent upon it's content.




And I never claimed that regulation is socialism.

Just that it CAN be if it's controlling the means of production, distribution and or exchange of goods and services.

You absolutely did claim that government regulation is socialism... see your post in this very thread...

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87592678&postcount=159


and your followup:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87592358&postcount=153

 

[BotanyBoy]

You absolutely did claim that government regulation is socialism... see your post in this very thread...

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87592678&postcount=159


and your followup:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=87592358&postcount=153

You need to go back and read, no I did not.


I very very clearly posted in both links that regulation is control, because it is.

And that regulations over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services = socialism.....because it is.

The problem here isn't that I'm using basic terms incorrectly.

The problem is that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I gotta go find out how badly my driver just fucked up my customers back yard....be back later!

 

[richard_daily]

You need to go back and read, no I did not.


I very very clearly posted in both links that regulation is control, because it is.

And that regulations over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services = socialism.....because it is.

The problem here isn't that I'm using basic terms incorrectly.

The problem is that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I gotta go find out how badly my driver just fucked up my customers back yard....be back later!

So what exactly where you claiming in these two statements?

I've never even said that socialism is inherently a negative or bad thing.

I'm saying laws/regulation (Government) controlling the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services are socialist.

If regulations aren't government control then what are they?

Last I checked that's EXACTLY what regulations are.

 

[oggbashan]

You need to go back and read, no I did not.


I very very clearly posted in both links that regulation is control, because it is.

And that regulations over the means of production, distribution and exchange of goods and services = socialism.....because it is.

The problem here isn't that I'm using basic terms incorrectly.

The problem is that you're not reading what I'm posting.

I gotta go find out how badly my driver just fucked up my customers back yard....be back later!

Then by your argument, every US government since Independence has been socialist. They only differ in degrees of governmental control.

PS: Article 1 Section 8 of the US Constitution is socialist by your use of socialism.