Changing Literotica "Celebs" Category to "Fan Fiction"?

[slyc_willie]

Adding more categories only perpetuates a systematic problem.

No, I don't think so. Additional categories helps readers find the particular kink they're after. It might result in more effort on the part of the reader to find stories that suits them, but a site like this can't possibly please everyone.

I personally like Lit's free-for-all system. It's structured in a way to allow readers who take the time to filter out specific kinds of stories to do so, but also allows the casual reader to find an unexpected gem. Lit's loose structure is one of the many reasons I post here, and nowhere else (at least for erotic content).

At the least, I'm glad this site hasn't suffered the fate of countless others that have become inundated with the literary equivalent of badly-written kiddie porn. If only because of that, Literotica is head and shoulders above every other free erotica site on the Internet.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Thank you for the suggestion. We think there is a lot of room for improvement of the tags system in the future, especially as the number of daily submissions continues to grow.

The latest version of the Literotica Android App, the one that hasn't been released publicly yet, has the option to select Categories which you would like to exclude from the app. So, if a user does not want to see Celebrity stories, they then can uncheck that category and stories in that category will not appear anywhere in the app for that user.

I think that is similar to what you are proposing?

We currently allow tag filtering, but it's filtering for tags, not against them. You can filter on both tags and categories here:
http://tags.literotica.com/

What is your specific suggestions about how the tag filtering should/could be improved?

Right now, the author-created tags are listed on the last page of the story. Moving them to the first page right next to the title would be massive. Letting the reader see a hint of what they're in for in advance isn't bad.

Another idea is to have some universal tags that the author can select as being present. In addition to whatever story specific tags the author wants to include, there would be like 10 that the author must either acknowledge as being present or not. For example, the other site I post on has the following basic choices:

Violence (with several selectable levels)
Racism (with several selectable levels)
Sexual Content (with several selectable levels)
Gay (Yes/No)
Lesbian (Yes/No)
Teen (Yes/No)
Furry (Yes/No)
Male (Yes/No)
Female (Yes/No)
Transgendered (Yes/No)

I omitted a few from their list that don't really apply here, but that's most of them. On the other side of it, the reader would have a filter set up in their profile that draws from the same list. Do I want to view:

Violence (Some)
Racism (Never)
Sexual Content (extreme)
Gay (Yes)
Lesbian (No)
Teen (Yes)
Furry (No)
Male (Yes)
Female (Yes)
Transgendered (Yes)

In this example, any material that exceeds my filter just wouldn't show up when I'm browsing. Excessively violent, lesbian anthropomorphic erotica, which is totally fine for some people, would be filtered out for me. If you have an open mind, you could tell it not to filter anything and just browse freely (which is what I actually have).

Obviously, this specific list of filters is not really geared for Literotica, but you can see how a basic yes/no on Incest, Gay Male, and Non-Con would prevent a lot of users from stumbling onto things they have strongly negative emotions about.

 

[sr71plt]

Personally, I'd love to see the addition of a Mystery/Thriller category, for those stories that aren't quite horrific to put in EH but are more engaging, thought-provoking and infused with enough danger or violence that they don't really belong anywhere else.

Mystery/Thriller would be nice. So would Historical.

I don't know about a total overhaul that relies only on keywords and gets away from grouping in categories. I think the hub pages introduced in the last couple of years have been very useful--and are set on categories. Also, I don't think the casual reader would take to well to having to go through a keyword filter process to get to anything as opposed to just landing in a category they are interested in that day.

The biggest-impact improving to finding what you want to read here, I think, would be to move the tags to the front of the story--and then make the reader take responsibility for him/herself on whether there's some tag that means they'd melt into the floor if they read the story.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I don't know about a total overhaul that relies only on keywords and gets away from grouping in categories. I think the hub pages introduced in the last couple of years have been very useful--and are set on categories. Also, I don't think the casual reader would take to well to having to go through a keyword filter process to get to anything as opposed to just landing in a category they are interested in that day

No one is suggesting doing away with categories. Filters merely hide some content based on user preferences. That being said, filters for hot-button content like gay male, incest, and non-con would preclude the need for those categories almost entirely. Most of them would shuffle back to Romance (for example), or whatever more generalized category the story would have fit into in the first place.

I'm still surprised to see this sort of Plessy v Ferguson-esque system being defended. Seperate but equal != equal.

Edit: apologies to the non-Americans. Plessy v Ferguson was a landmark case in US history where our Supreme Court said that if you made seperate facilities for blacks, that was totally fine and not at all racist.

 

[scouries]

don't hold your breath...

http://media.tumblr.com/a41ac1ccb5a6d1d2ca7ac4d0f4b685a7/tumblr_inline_mvcwhjBerv1rzqa6p.jpg
QUOTE from ACE: post #30 above:

Yep, it's easier to say that changes are coming "soon" into perpetuity.

Ace sometimes you do make me laugh!

And no great fear ladies and gentlemen – MANU’S promises of cuming changes (as ace suggests) are not likely to arrive in our lifetimes…

Here are a couple from 2009 and 2011…

http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs46/f/2009/182/2/e/New_Forum_Siggy__D_by_The_manu.png

QUOTE from PRINCE MANU: A post made on May 27 2009:

Gay categories - we have a plan. Eventually, we are planning to have a gay section of Literotica where gay stories get their own categories, just like the straight categories. Imagine something like gay.literotica.com where everything on the site is gay stories in their own set of categories - along with some easy way to switch between the gay and straight categories. That's what we imagine. If you have thoughts on that, or if you have ideas for a better way to do it, please do comment

QUOTE from PRINCE MANU: A post made on March 25 2011:

The long term goal is to use the "Series" feature to allow authors to have separate ratings, toplists, comments, favorites, etc. for multi-part works. In the short term, we are still trying to work out the best way to handle things. All of the feedback on that issue is definitely helpful.
​

 

[AwkwardMD]

And no great fear ladies and gentlemen – MANU’S promises of cuming changes (as ace suggests) are not likely to arrive in our lifetimes…

Here are a couple from 2009 And 2011

QUOTE from PRINCE MANU: A post made on May 27 2009:

Gay categories - we have a plan. Eventually, we are planning to have a gay section of Literotica where gay stories get their own categories, just like the straight categories. Imagine something like gay.literotica.com where everything on the site is gay stories in their own set of categories - along with some easy way to switch between the gay and straight categories. That's what we imagine. If you have thoughts on that, or if you have ideas for a better way to do it, please do comment

QUOTE from PRINCE MANU: A post made on March 25 2011:

The long term goal is to use the "Series" feature to allow authors to have separate ratings, toplists, comments, favorites, etc. for multi-part works. In the short term, we are still trying to work out the best way to handle things. All of the feedback on that issue is definitely helpful.

I don't think I see the word promise in there. Am I just not looking hard enough?

 

[sr71plt]

I'm still surprised to see this sort of Plessy v Ferguson-esque system being defended. Seperate but equal != equal.

First, who is defending the current system just to defend the current system?

And, second, what are you trying to convey with the separate (sic) but equal != equal?

The only thing I can imagine that being applied to is all of those straight categories against one and a half gay categories, one lesbian category, and no bi category. But anyone pointing to that wouldn't be defending the current system.

Explain?

 

[sr71plt]

I don't think I see the word promise in there. Am I just not looking hard enough?

No, what you're not doing is reading the writing of history on the wall.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably be delighted when "soon" comes--although it probably will be a little cold in my coffin. I've been delighted now and again of changes that have been made (love the category hubs and the notifications now that comments have been made)--of course they weren't changes that had been requested while changes that were requested have not happened and, if you point to nonfunctioning parts of the current Web site and suggest they should be cleaned up, you get the denial that anything here isn't functioning and called a troll.

May 2009 was six years ago--and I wouldn't doubt if this was said in 2003 too. Any part of that you don't understand? Perhaps I should dig out the forum posts where in the LGBT forum a supposedly Laurel-approved "soon" thread on a bi category has been running for two years and clip it to the post Laurel put on the Feedback forum some months ago that no bi category was even being contemplated.

I repeat, you are running on a NOOBs understanding of how the Web site runs in reality.

 

[AwkwardMD]

First, who is defending the current system just to defend the current system?

And, second, what are you trying to convey with the separate (sic) but equal != equal?

The only thing I can imagine that being applied to is all of those straight categories against one and a half gay categories, one lesbian category, and no bi category. But anyone pointing to that wouldn't be defending the current system.

Explain?

One, I didn't suggest anyone was defending it just to defend it and for no better reason. Merely that it was being defended at all.

Two, I'm on my phone. Sue me.

Three, Gay is not a literary genre. Romance is a genre. Thriller is a genre. For Literotica's purposes, Stroke is a genre. Gay is a box to hide "unmentionable perversions" in. It would be very progressive to find a way to make it so that stories with gay content didn't need to be sorted out and put someplace else.

 

[sr71plt]

Three, Gay is not a literary genre. Romance is a genre. Thriller is a genre. For Literotica's purposes, Stroke is a genre. Gay is a box to hide "unmentionable perversions" in. It would be very progressive to find a way to make it so that stories with gay content didn't need to be sorted out and put someplace else.

That certainly shows where you're coming from, now doesn't it?

And how many gay stories have you written, gotten them posted here to what you have decided topical categories genuinely are, and seen the reader results on?

I think here we go for another round of you not understanding how reality works because you are operating from pure, uninformed supposition.

Are we going to go through this every day now with you trying to approach neverneverland from just a different angle?

 

[AwkwardMD]

No, what you're not doing is reading the writing of history on the wall.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably be delighted when "soon" comes--although it probably will be a little cold in my coffin. I've been delighted now and again of changes that have been made (love the category hubs and the notifications now that comments have been made)--of course they weren't changes that had been requested while changes that were requested have not happened and, if you point to nonfunctioning parts of the current Web site and suggest they should be cleaned up, you get the denial that anything here isn't functioning and called a troll.

May 2009 was six years ago--and I wouldn't doubt if this was said in 2003 too. Any part of that you don't understand? Perhaps I should dig out the forum posts where in the LGBT forum a supposedly Laurel-approved "soon" thread on a bi category has been running for two years and clip it to the post Laurel put on the Feedback forum some months ago that no bi category was even being contemplated.

I repeat, you are running on a NOOBs understanding of how the Web site runs in reality.

What I'm seeing a lot of, pretty much everywhere, is people taking comments out of context. Those comments from Manu don't read as promises, it's spitballing. If you want to hang your hopes on a brainstorming conversation, go nuts. It doesn't mean you don't keep trying to get changes made that would be beneficial.

 

[AwkwardMD]

That certainly shows where you're coming from, now doesn't it?

And how many gay stories have you written, gotten them posted here to what you have decided topical categories genuinely are, and seen the reader results on?

I think here we go for another round of you not understanding how reality works because you are operating from pure, uninformed supposition.

Are we going to go through this every day now with you trying to approach neverneverland from just a different angle?

You can check out on this thread at any time.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Btw, I haven't with Gay. I wrote a BDSM story with Non-Con elements and had problems, and YOU told me that stories with non-con, gay, or incest, people will complain. If you would like me to use Non-Con as my go to category for the purposes of this thread, I can do that. I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, but to rouse you to seeing my side of it.

 

[sr71plt]

You can check out on this thread at any time.

So could you--to go do some research so that you don't irritate those of us who have been struggling with this for years with your Pollyanna posts.

 

[AwkwardMD]

So could you--to go do some research so that you don't irritate those of us who have been struggling with this for years with your Pollyanna posts.

Well I responded to a direct request from a site admin for ideas, so I'll probably keep watching for a little while to see if there's any follow up on that. But if nothing comes of the conversation here, oh well. Having filters would be great, but it doesn't change the taste of mustard.

 

[sr71plt]

I don't recommend holding your breath in the interim.

 

[GriffyD_Boy]

Makes sense in this day & age.

But why not call it "Fan Fiction / Celebrity" or vice versa "Celebrity / Fan Fiction"

Is there anything wrong with using both names in the category title?

best wishes Manu

I think this is probably the best idea for the change.

 

[Hypoxia]

I'm still fuzzy on the parameters. If I write about Sherlock & Watson's affair, is it FanFic or GM? If I tweak Willie the Shake so Romeo & Juliet hookup with Othello & Desdemona & Ophelia, is it FanFic or Group Sex? If I write about John Wesley Powell courting Annie Oakley, or Aimee Semple McPherson's tryst, is it Celeb or Romance? (Rev Aimee's story is a hot plot bunny. I should write that one.)

Just how much of another universe must be stolen before it's FanFic, and how recent (and prominent) must they be to qualify as Celebs?

And of course, if LIT switches to a tag-based architecture, why do we even care about categories?

 

[AwkwardMD]

And of course, if LIT switches to a tag-based architecture, why do we even care about categories?

I wasn't angling for a redesign, merely some filters to complement the existing category system to help authors put stuff where they think it belongs regardless of minor-but-problematic-themes-for-some-readers.

 

[RejectReality]

As to the question of the thread, I think expanding the title to "Fanfiction & Celebrities" is the way to go. After all, the category is already full of celeb stories that can't even remotely be classified as fanfic, but the far more recognized term in the category name will probably attract more attention.

Pushing the tags to the front would help in a few categories, but it would be a slow, slow process. Even ignoring the warzone that is LW, the bias against certain things such as M/M content in many of the categories isn't going to vanish just because readers have an up front alert. Many of the people leaving the nasty comments and low scores are going to continue to do so because they don't want that "stuff in their category".

In time, it would shift the balance, because the worst-of-the-worst wouldn't have the support system of people who weren't expecting something to happen agreeing with them. Those folks would see the tag, go "Ewww... ghey!" and back-click without reading, voting, or commenting.

Without the backup singers they're used to, the primary venom-slingers become the weirdo on the corner screaming about the end of the world, and their impact is going to steadily decline.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I'm still fuzzy on the parameters. If I write about Sherlock & Watson's affair, is it FanFic or GM? If I tweak Willie the Shake so Romeo & Juliet hookup with Othello & Desdemona & Ophelia, is it FanFic or Group Sex? If I write about John Wesley Powell courting Annie Oakley, or Aimee Semple McPherson's tryst, is it Celeb or Romance? (Rev Aimee's story is a hot plot bunny. I should write that one.)

Just how much of another universe must be stolen before it's FanFic, and how recent (and prominent) must they be to qualify as Celebs?

And of course, if LIT switches to a tag-based architecture, why do we even care about categories?

Anything about a celeb or fanfic is classified as a Celebrity story. This is done because the site wants to include the legal disclaimer at the beginning of the story. A tale about George and Ira Gershwin having an incestuous gay affair would go into the Celeb. category. A story about Romeo actually having the hots for Juliet's brother would go into Celeb, unless there is a new fanfic category. I don't now if it would need a disclaimer or not.

 

[HuckPilgrim]

Do you authors think that we should change the name of the Celebs category to Fan Fiction?

Thank you for any feedback!

Yes! I had no idea what Celebrities was intended for, but Fan Fiction is pretty clear to me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Obviously, this specific list of filters is not really geared for Literotica, but you can see how a basic yes/no on Incest, Gay Male, and Non-Con would prevent a lot of users from stumbling onto things they have strongly negative emotions about.

I would like to see this sort of interface on Literotica; IMHO it's the best way to deal with stories that might fit more than one category. But we'd still have to deal with the problem that not everybody has the same understanding of what counts as non-con.

As an off-Literotica example, 50SoG has content that a lot of readers consider non-con, and for some that's quite triggering, but the author refuses to acknowledge those scenes as NC.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If I tweak Willie the Shake so Romeo & Juliet hookup with Othello & Desdemona & Ophelia, is it FanFic or Group Sex?

Trick question: it's rejected by moderator because of Juliet's age ;-)

 

[Katiecat]

I think Celebrity/FanFic is an ideal pairing for one specific reason: the disclaimer. If anyone is likely to get their knickers in a twist, either because the story is about real people, or it's about fictional characters that someone is currently making a profit on, the disclaimer and the fact that the Lit author isn't making money on the story covers that. A Capulet-Montague orgy, gay Sherlock Holmes tale, or bondage and domination romp with General Custer aren't likely to stir up rumblings about defamation or copyright infringement, although any of those stories would be appropriate in the category.