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At least 11 Dead in Paris

Ishmael said:
Realistic solutions by necessity are going to be brutal and bloody.

As far as oaths and affirmations go, the fundamentalist Muslim is going to lie. As part of their faith, lying to an infidel or barbarian is NOT a sin. To them it's roughly akin to lying to a dog. Any ruse, betrayal, or lie is perfectly fine if it furthers their goals. A trait that makes them especially dangerous when attempting to deal with them on a diplomatic basis.

And it's not the Saudis that are the problem, it's their partners the Wahhabi's that are. Saudi Arabia is a bifurcated nation when it comes to governance. The royal family are the 'front men' and in reality have been good partners on the international scene, the Wahhabi's are the power behind the throne, the royal family deals with the secular, the Wahhabi's the divine. Should either side act against the other the kingdom will fall into anarchy and civil war. A state of affairs that no one wants to see except the fundamentalists. They will do anything to gain control of Mecca.

Getting back to dealing with the problem, because the fundamentalist will lie to avoid detection how do you know which Muslim is truly a Muslim that is content to live within the laws of the nation in which they reside?

Ishmael
Click to expand...

I agree with the points made in paragraphs 1 and 2 but don't believe the Sauds and the Wahabbis are really separate. They function as you say, and have been closely allied for 150 years. There is a complex network of tribal and marriage alliances. However given that Saudi Arabia has been governed by a gerontocracy for years (The King is 90 and most ministers are in their 70's and 80's) which has lost real power to the Wahabbis I think the best bet is to promote a civil war in Arabia.

The Shia are a minority in Arabia except in one area, which conveniently is where the oil fields are. They are a highly disaffected group as are their neighbours the Shia majority in Bahrain(who are oppressed by a Sunni ruling clique) It shouldn't be too difficult to arm and train these groups sufficiently to bring about a long running civil strife. The West doesn't need a resolution but an extended civil insurrection which brings terrrorism back to where it began. Major loss of life could be anticipated but so long as it is an intra/arab, sunni/shia conflict, that fact is of no strategic consequence to the West.

The fact that the Saudi royal family and government have been allies should not blind us to the strategic necessity of allowing them to be disposed of if necessary.
The US and the West must follow its interests, that leaves no room for sentimental attachment to alliances past their use by date.

Major civil unrest would be of major economic help to the USA because civil strife could damage the Saudi oil industry and thus preserve the US investment in shale oil.

One fly in the ointment might be the arms industry which would not want to lose a major customer, but if the conflict could be promoted and handled properly they could benefit by supplying both sides.

I think that the Wahabbis already control Mecca, didn't they destroy the tomb of one of Mohamed's close relatives only a year or two ago?

But I still doubt that any US leader has the spine to take terrorism home. Yet.
 
Sanity Sam said:
Ok, Mrs Smarty

What would you do

Assuming you think there is problem
Click to expand...

There is a problem and the French have been ignoring it for decades. They have had multiple warnings that their current policies are marginalising Muslims.

What they need to do is copy other European countries and make it illegal to discriminate by race, colour or religion. Even if they did that now, it would take many more decades to repair the damage.

France's National Front is part of the problem, not the solution. Their support is significant for any mainstream party.

The Muslim communities also need to change. They too have been denying that they have a problem in integrating into French society, and have not condemned or tackled extremism in their communities strongly enough.

Those killed this week should be mourned, and their families supported. The best memorial for them would be a France that encourages their different communities to work together - not to accommodate fanatics but to see them as the criminals they are.

They should also work to counter the racist influences in the National Front. The National Front is supported by people who are worried about how France is changing AND by those who are anti-Muslim and against other nationalities in France (including Brits, Germans, Spanish, Greeks as well as those of a different colour).

However angered Muslims might be about disrespect for their icons, they should not use that anger to give passive support to jihadis.
 
I knew that is what you would have said


Oprah said....when the whites will die...racism will end

When people like you, wjo say foolish things like that will die......we may b able to end terrorism


Kill em all
 
Sanity Sam said:
I knew that is what you would have said


Oprah said....when the whites will die...racism will end

When people like you, wjo say foolish things like that will die......we may b able to end terrorism


Kill em all
Click to expand...

Sorry, Sam.

Racism exists among peoples who are not white. Look at China, India, Myanmar, Rwanda... I could go on and on.
 
Sanity Sam said:
France rounds up 900 Islamic terror suspects

In the three days since the Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris, the French authorities have rounded up 900 individuals across France on suspicion of involvement in Islamic terror, DEBKAfile reports. The detentions on an unprecedented scale for France continues.

why do they allow em IN??????????????
Click to expand...

kill all 900

jail doesn't work
 
Hostages and Killings at a Jewish Deli in France

If only there would have been STRONGER HATE speech laws there, this would NOT have happened

Right, OGGY?
 
Obviously the most important thing right now is to guard against anti-Islamic backlash.
 
Ogg, no matter what changes France, or Europe at large, undergo in order to "mainstream" Islam the cultural feelings of weakness and the sense of inferiority will continue to smolder for Islamic countries/populations refuse to embrace Liberalism and its economic advantages. The resentment will grow against the former colonialists and they will further retreat to a mythical past and a pre-industrial cultural mindset. Hence they will be forever poor, miserable and unable to feed their population creating more violence and fostering a s sense of entitlement and an enemy culture from which its riches need to be taken back from by force and expansion.
 
4est_4est_Gump said:
Ogg, no matter what changes France, or Europe at large, undergo in order to "mainstream" Islam the cultural feelings of weakness and the sense of inferiority will continue to smolder for Islamic countries/populations refuse to embrace Liberalism and its economic advantages. The resentment will grow against the former colonialists and they will further retreat to a mythical past and a pre-industrial cultural mindset. Hence they will be forever poor, miserable and unable to feed their population creating more violence and fostering a s sense of entitlement and an enemy culture from which its riches need to be taken back from by force and expansion.
Click to expand...
he KNOWS that

EVERYONE knows that

No one is strong willed enough to do what MUST be done

DEAD MEN WALKING
 
oggbashan said:
There is a problem and the French have been ignoring it for decades. They have had multiple warnings that their current policies are marginalising Muslims.

What they need to do is copy other European countries and make it illegal to discriminate by race, colour or religion. Even if they did that now, it would take many more decades to repair the damage.

France's National Front is part of the problem, not the solution. Their support is significant for any mainstream party.

The Muslim communities also need to change. They too have been denying that they have a problem in integrating into French society, and have not condemned or tackled extremism in their communities strongly enough.

Those killed this week should be mourned, and their families supported. The best memorial for them would be a France that encourages their different communities to work together - not to accommodate fanatics but to see them as the criminals they are.

They should also work to counter the racist influences in the National Front. The National Front is supported by people who are worried about how France is changing AND by those who are anti-Muslim and against other nationalities in France (including Brits, Germans, Spanish, Greeks as well as those of a different colour).

However angered Muslims might be about disrespect for their icons, they should not use that anger to give passive support to jihadis.
Click to expand...

It appears obvious to me that many Muslims, perhaps even the majority of them, don't want to integrate into French society. I would go so far as to say that's the last thing they want, and it would be wise for French non-Muslims to wake up to that fact.
 
toubab said:
It appears obvious to me that many Muslims, perhaps even the majority of them, don't want to integrate into French society. I would go so far as to say that's the last thing they want, and it would be wise for French non-Muslims to wake up to that fact.
Click to expand...

You clearly don't have any knowledge of how things went down in Algiers.
 
toubab said:
It appears obvious to me that many Muslims, perhaps even the majority of them, don't want to integrate into French society. I would go so far as to say that's the last thing they want, and it would be wise for French non-Muslims to wake up to that fact.
Click to expand...

Let's assume your conjecture is true. What is your solution? A diaspora, perhaps?
 
4est_4est_Gump said:
Ogg, no matter what changes France, or Europe at large, undergo in order to "mainstream" Islam the cultural feelings of weakness and the sense of inferiority will continue to smolder for Islamic countries/populations refuse to embrace Liberalism and its economic advantages. The resentment will grow against the former colonialists and they will further retreat to a mythical past and a pre-industrial cultural mindset. Hence they will be forever poor, miserable and unable to feed their population creating more violence and fostering a s sense of entitlement and an enemy culture from which its riches need to be taken back from by force and expansion.
Click to expand...

Drive that wedge, boy! Drive it! Let's get them Godless Muslims and those Godless Libruls fightin!

Excellent passive aggressive post, Chief. "Let's you and him fight".
 
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