FAWC 5: Line, Please!

[AMoveableBeast]

Thanks. You're brave for posting that to this forum.

I think it might be what many others could do too, if they were given the leisure time I am. I do nothing but write, edit, read, plan trips (don't even do much of the logistics in filling out the plans), and appear at the dinner table at the ring of the bell. I worked my ass off in two careers and literally laid my life on the line to get the big bucks--knowing that if I survived I'd be rewarded with this time just to do as I damn well pleased--which is exercising my imagination and writing (and reading and traveling).

I'm not brave, I'm honest.

 

[SecondCircle]

Why should authors get high creative marks for not using the given elements in creative and well-integrated ways? I think it's a little dumb not to take them as important enough in the exercise to make full use of them. So, yes, I can clearly see downgrading for not doing so. They are central to the exercise. What else is the exercise about?

Ah, but the exercise said nothing about implementing those nouns in that sentence though. The challenge was "start with this line." Not "use these items in this line as pivotal elements or recurring themes."

For me the point was to read that line, start with it, and see where it takes you. That line could have been "She ran through the clearing and gasped." Every author would have used that line as a starting point, not necessarily a central them. It just gets the wheels spinning. What kind of clearing? In the trees? The buildings? Why gasp? In shock? Terror? Wonder? Why was she running? We can use those elements, but don't have to dwell on them. This isn't the basket challenge from the earlier excercises where authors HAD to incorporate those items.

All we really needed to do was start with that line. "Where it goes from there is up to the author." You can use elements from that sentence as focal points, supporting elements, or simply a place to start, and head somewhere that has nothing to do with anything in that sentence at all.

Which was kinda genius. The variations exploded in every direction. I liked several where I saw the three things from the sentence pop up as plot points and themes. I noted as such in the comments. But I understand it wasn't a requirement. So I didn't scorn any story for not doing so.

I do see what you're saying. The elements in the sentence are what made it so intriguing. So why abandon the inspiration?

Because each author is different, and can write within the parameters of the given rules as they see fit.

 

[sr71plt]

Ah, but the exercise said nothing about implementing those nouns in that sentence though. The challenge was "start with this line." Not "use these items in this line as pivotal elements or recurring themes."

Which I take as a noncreative response for a writer right there, so I have no need to go further into that discussion. I don't think that's a talented writer's response. You can hold those views if you want, and you can conduct your assessments as you please, but I don't go with the "done the minimum" when lifting one story over another, and I expect more from a writer when I'm evaluating their work against that of other writers--which is what this exercise is set up to do. You don't get high marks from me for a dogged "I just did enough to satisfy the basest iteration of the requirements." That's just the way it's going to be, so you can stop arguing with me about it.

So, I won't be going after any commenter on the stories who ranks use of the exercise elements highly--or give the time of day to authors who complain that someone discussed/assessed/rated their story in those terms.

 

[PennLady]

Why should authors get high creative marks for not using the given elements in creative and well-integrated ways? I think it's a little dumb not to take them as important enough in the exercise to make full use of them. So, yes, I can clearly see downgrading for not doing so. They are central to the exercise. What else is the exercise about?

The exercise was about starting a story with that sentence. It doesn't necessarily follow that the items have to be used throughout the story. It's the first instinct for just about anyone, I think, but the challenge didn't demand that the items be used in the story.

I think if the author found novel ways to use the items, then more power to them, and I hope they get high marks. But it was the sentence that was important, to use as a start, and if they had a good story even without integrating the items, I don't think the story's mark should suffer.

 

[SecondCircle]

Which I take as a noncreative response for a writer right there, so I have no need to go further into that discussion. I don't think that's a talented writer's response. You can hold those views if you want, and you can conduct your assessments as you please, but I don't go with the "done the minimum" when lifting one story over another, and I expect more from a writer when I'm evaluating their work against that of other writers--which is what this exercise is set up to do. You don't get high marks from me for a dogged "I just did enough to satisfy the basest iteration of the requirements." That's just the way it's going to be, so you can stop arguing with me about it.

So, I won't be going after any commenter on the stories who ranks use of the exercise elements highly--or give the time of day to authors who complain that someone discussed/assessed/rated their story in those terms.

Valid points but too generalized I think. Just because an author chooses not to literally use those elements doesn't have to mean "they are doing bare minimum". Just that they went in a different creative direction. As swilly pointed out, those elements could be present even without a literal mention of them. A handkerchief could be symbolized (after that initial line) by a delicate atmosphere or emotion. The book an interpretation of something chronologically recorded, or events that read like a memoir. The knife could yield the effect of pain, backstabbing, a scar that heals, anything.

Since there was no obligation to literally use those three things in that sentence, an author can take direction from it as they see fit.

Just to be clear (at whatever risk of outing my story I don't mind) I did use each item from our starting point as revolving themes, and they appear literally in the story. But I understand it wasn't a requirement, so I don't knock any that took their creativity in a different place. And not necessarily in a "less writerly or creative" place.

Point being, the original idea was use this opening line. Whatever happens then is up to the author. In whatever way they see fit. If that isn't a creative idea, then I feel shackled by the notion we might always aim for the lowest hanging fruit and use those exact items from the sentence.

 

[sr71plt]

No, they're not, not necessarily The central thing was to start with that sentence. It doesn't necessarily follow that the items have to be used throughout the story. It's the first instinct for just about anyone, I think, but I don't think the challenge demanded that the items be used in the story.

*Sigh* I know that was the basic requirement. We're talking about what a writer does--in relationship to other writers--with the requirement. I don't give the highest marks for "just doing the minimum." And, frankly, I'm disappointed in you and some other writers for being that mulish on this. I don't give high marks to a writer for responding to a writing challenge that way, either. That said, I don't expect you or others to care what I think. I'm just defending the good sense of a story commenter who would use the creative use of the elements given as a criterion for assessing and rating a story--and differentiating them from other stories in the contest set.

Gotta say I'm really pissed and disappointed that a writer would go after a commenter on a story for using the use of the elements of the exercise as a rating criteria. Just pissed as hell. I didn't bring this issue up on this thread.

 

[patientlee]

I had you for "Cooking". I'm not afraid to admit it.

I didn't.

 

[SecondCircle]

Aye but to be clear, not all of us "go after" other commenters for rating a story how they think it should be rated. It's fine. If the objects in the opening line are something a person sees as "needed" in the story, I'm fine with that. But I will give the other end of the spectrum. That it wasn't an obligation.

I think most looked at those items and immediately built the story behind them. Which is awesome, because you have these three things that for some reason are together, and many wanted to tell the story of why, and what they were. Creatively use those items as themes, symbols, plot points, clues, or whatever else. It was the sentence that made me want to join in this time, those three random items in it. I couldn't shake those items. So I wrote to those items.

That is great. And fine.

But if someone wanted to simply start with that sentence and later (plausibly) dismiss those objects as irrelevant to the story they inspired, and might I add write an EQUALLY great quality story?

Then that's fine too.

Just because someone doesn't use the same kind of creativity as me, or take the same creative direction, doesn't mean they did less or did worse quality. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't have to be a thing of "bare minimums" or "being uncreative".

I say nothing to offend. Just to tell a different side of the discussion.

 

[PennLady]

*Sigh* I know that was the basic requirement. We're talking about what a writer does--in relationship to other writers--with the requirement. I don't give the highest marks for "just doing the minimum." And, frankly, I'm disappointed in you and some other writers for being that mulish on this. I don't give high marks to a writer for responding to a writing challenge that way, either. That said, I don't expect you or others to care what I think. I'm just defending the good sense of a story commenter who would use the creative use of the elements given as a criterion for assessing and rating a story--and differentiating them from other stories in the contest set.

Gotta say I'm really pissed and disappointed that a writer would go after a commenter on a story for using the use of the elements of the exercise as a rating criteria. Just pissed as hell. I didn't bring this issue up on this thread.

I'm not going after anyone, and I don't care how the items were used. I try to look at stories, as I said before, on a "how is it about it" basis, and whether the story works on those grounds.

I'm not being mulish on anything. The rule was start with this sentence. I don't think we had to infer anything else from that, although like I said, I think that probably just about everyone, in the first reaction, tried to think of ways to incorporate the items into the story. I certainly did.

 

[sr71plt]

Today would have been a nice day for a surprise sweep. (I'm sure that Laurel was taken up with setting up the Nude Day contest pages--although she didn't actually do that). The problem of not having an early sweep is that whatever manipulation that is done early on these exercises gets compounded in the manipulators' favor because casual readers become influenced by what is a false indicator of relative story content quality when they choose to dip into the file for a read or two. (Of course that's a big reason the manipulators do what they do out of the starting gate.)

 

[jomar]

I did edit it. And when I saw it, I thought, "Oh, shit, my story has already been one upped."
...

Whaaaat? People get their entries edited?

 

[PennLady]

Whaaaat? People get their entries edited?

Some of us.

 

[sr71plt]

Whaaaat? People get their entries edited?

Some do, yes. I had one (out of several) of mine edited last time (there had been no discussion on whether this was legitimate or not). Not since then, though, since there was a discussion on doing this and some seemed leery about it.

 

[PennLady]

Some do, yes. I had one (out of several) of mine edited last time (there had been no discussion on whether this was legitimate or not). Not since then, though, since there was a discussion on doing this and some seemed leery about it.

I think getting it edited is fine, but the question is whether other participants should do it. I don't mind if they do, so long as everyone keeps it quiet until the unveiling. To me it's just practical -- not everyone has a regular editor or beta reader they can turn to, and if they can get help by another participant, that's fine with me.

 

[Swilly]

I'm pissed too. When I'm on my computer later, I'll give a much better explanation to the seemingly feebleminded pilot. What an ass.

 

[SecondCircle]

Hmm. I don't see a problem with participants editing another's story. By that I mean it hasn't seemed to be an issue where it breaks the veil of anonymity. I think folks enjoy that anonymity too much to compromise it. The contest is going smoothly for me. I'm reading the stories and not having a clue as to who the hell they were written by, and giving and getting unbiased, honest, no shit feedback. So I haven't personally seen any harm in the editing.

 

[sr71plt]

An aspect of the FAWC stories in the Chain Story category has always been a head scratcher for me--that FAWCker rarely makes even the "today" top list for the category when there are a batch of FAWC stories dominating the hub "new" list. There are twenty-five there and have been for a week, and FAWCker made the top "today" list only for yesterday (I think). I've never seen the name on the list before. Folks are still reading old Chain Story stories more than they are twenty-five FAWCKer current stories combined?

 

[Aynmair]

I am sooo lost - what do you mean by "edited" in these contexts? Editing the story by suggesting alternate approaches? Editing the comments...how can that happen, except by another person commenting on a previous comment (that sounds dreadfully confusing!).

Some do, yes. I had one (out of several) of mine edited last time (there had been no discussion on whether this was legitimate or not). Not since then, though, since there was a discussion on doing this and some seemed leery about it.

I think getting it edited is fine, but the question is whether other participants should do it. I don't mind if they do, so long as everyone keeps it quiet until the unveiling. To me it's just practical -- not everyone has a regular editor or beta reader they can turn to, and if they can get help by another participant, that's fine with me.

Hmm. I don't see a problem with participants editing another's story. By that I mean it hasn't seemed to be an issue where it breaks the veil of anonymity. I think folks enjoy that anonymity too much to compromise it. The contest is going smoothly for me. I'm reading the stories and not having a clue as to who the hell they were written by, and giving and getting unbiased, honest, no shit feedback. So I haven't personally seen any harm in the editing.

 

[jomar]

Some of us.

Some do, yes. I had one (out of several) of mine edited last time (there had been no discussion on whether this was legitimate or not). Not since then, though, since there was a discussion on doing this and some seemed leery about it.

Well how about that. I don't really care one way or the other, but it seems to take some purity out of the exercise...I'll have to mull it over.

 

[sr71plt]

I am sooo lost - what do you mean by "edited" in these contexts? Editing the story by suggesting alternate approaches? Editing the comments...how can that happen, except by another person commenting on a previous comment (that sounds dreadfully confusing!).

Well, as far as me, I edited your entry in the last FAWC, so you should know what I mean by editing a FAWC entry.

 

[Aynmair]

Well, as far as me, I edited your entry in the last FAWC, so you should know what I mean by editing a FAWC entry.

Oh, that kind of editing.... indeed, and thank you again!

I thought this was post-posting of the stories, which made no sense...

 

[sr71plt]

Well how about that. I don't really care one way or the other, but it seems to take some purity out of the exercise...I'll have to mull it over.

If there was a statement on FAWCker on this, I wouldn't mind going with it either. I don't see this exercise as the same as a contest, though (and folks are getting edits for their contest stories, aren't they?). I don't mind if it's the best the author can do, including the editing process, because my view of the exercise is getting the best quality possible for discussion.

But I don't care. When people I regularly edit for come to me for an edit, though, I don't turn them away without a good reason I can give them--one I can point to as a rule for all--or because I simply don't have enough time then to give the project justice.

That said, I only had one of several edited last time before the issue came up and didn't have another one edited after the issue did come up.

 

[jomar]

If there was a statement on FAWCker on this, I wouldn't mind going with it either. I don't see this exercise as the same as a contest, though (and folks are getting edits for their contest stories, aren't they?). I don't mind if it's the best the author can do, including the editing process, because my view of the exercise is getting the best quality possible for discussion.

...

If best quality is the goal then why not allow editing. Wonder what the consensus is.

 

[sheablue]

I don't mind people having their stories edited, even by someone also participating. As long as no one spills the beans, it's between the two of them if they want to "lift the veil." This is all for fun and personal growth, right?

If I had had time I would have had my story edited, it certainly needed it. And my editor is a genius. She wasn't participating in this FAWC, but she has in the past.

 

[drteetho]

I've read all the stories and made comments on most. I hope those I've commented on take whatever criticism I've offered in the constructive spirit I intended to use. I don't think there's been a bad story in the bunch, but some could have been better... mine included.

To those I haven't commented on, it's either because I couldn't really think of anything worthwhile to say or others already made the same points I had so I didn't want the comments section to sound like an echo chamber.