Boss-Employee Gap Legislation

[4est_4est_Gump]

Perhaps if the stockholders were clamoring for this data rather than democratic politicians, that argument might be worth the while.

I didn't say it would be hard to calculate.

The CEO makes $45 million, the lowest paid earns $8.00/hour, 30 hours a week, 40 weeks a year: $9600.

easy to calculate, difficult to tell me why it's important if the P/E ratio for the company is the same as one where everyone is paid the same.

Yes.

If it were a worthwhile metric, it would already be in place due to competition and investor demand.

 

[Recidiva]

The Fountainhead described exactly how we would lose our liberty and the consequences of that loss were explained in We, The Living.


It was the fictional variant of what Hayek and Mises were writing from the viewpoint of Sociology and Economics plus the very real fact that she actually lived within such a totalitarian system gives her some credibility upon the topic.

Nobody disses Dostoyevsky as irrelevant because he used fiction to attack the system.

Rand is only personally attacked because her warnings about Communists-Progressives-Socialist-Altruists were so remarkably prescient and cut to the quick of their goals, a law such as this being one of the tools to advance their goals by using envy to breed hate, resentment and unrest.

If that janitor wants to make what the CEO makes, then he should put down his broom and go take a risk for no one cries for the CEO when he fails and goes bust (taking the janitor's job with him).

It's nice that you feel that way, I disagree and once someone says "Ayn Rand" other than me usually correcting the fact that it's "Ain" and not "Ann" in my head, I don't care.

She's irrelevant to my universe and I think she's just an excuse to be a selfish dick and blame it on other people if they don't like it.

I do not believe that if you "work hard" you will be rewarded. Life will give you an infinite capacity to work hard and not get ahead.

As a stockholder, I am interested in whether or not a business owner has the practice of allowing people to work hard and get ahead and prosper as the business prospers, and share in that, or if the business owner takes the cash and runs with it, without rewarding those who did the actual work.

It is, in fact, a sign that the business owner is just going to squeeze as much as they can, and as soon as they realize they can't make $15 million a year off of loads of people making less than minimum wage, maybe it isn't as much fun any more. Good. Everybody should have some fun, not just the person setting the pay scale.

A business that grows and prospers together and the workers get the right amount and the owner gets the right amount, shows that management is reasonable and not just made out of bricks of greed that will crumble as soon as they can't abuse people and get away with it.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Work smarter, not harder.

 

[Recidiva]

Truth is, the government taxes the hell out of people and lays the onus on the employers with crap about income gaps. The market decides the allocation of resources and worth of labor, not the government.

I've run a business, I get that. I don't think it's reasonable or easy to be a business owner and it will very likely take your savings and your dreams and run with it.

I think the tax code needs to be reamed and redone and that efficiency needs to come before people ask for more money to waste more money.

However, if you DO navigate it properly and DO make a lot of money, then report the ratio.

But these are separate issues that are unrelated to the fact that if you do have a successful business, it is not difficult to calculate or provide, and the only reason not to do it is because it's embarrassing.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

It is a myth, a complete and total myth that employers keep good workers on minimum wage while raking in millions.



It is a lie.

 

[Recidiva]

Work smarter, not harder.

And this is the stockholder attempt to see if the business owner is working smarter or making other people work harder.

It is entirely relevant.

 

[Recidiva]

It is a myth, a complete and total myth that employers keep good workers on minimum wage while raking in millions.



It is a lie.

Explain WalMart.

Explain the great vast agribusiness industry that makes good profit off of harvests brought in by illegal and abused labor.

I'll wait.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Explain WalMart.

Explain the great vast agribusiness industry that makes good profit off of harvests brought in by illegal and abused labor.

I'll wait.

I do not need to explain it.

They pay higher than minimum wage and have no shortage of people applying.

If there were few people applying, then they would be forced by circumstance to pay more.

The very real reason that they do not have to pay more is that so many economically illiterate people in this country think they can make laws that will let them come out on top at the expense of their employer. It cannot work for so many reasons that are clear and evident and have been clear and evident for centuries but that never gets through the emotion of envy and distrust so you get more government, more protection, more benefit and a lower standard of living with each improvement aimed solely at the working man.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

And this is the stockholder attempt to see if the business owner is working smarter or making other people work harder.

It is entirely relevant.

It is a tool that is irrelevant to the stockholder as kbate and I pointed out that will do little more than add cost to the business trying to figure it out and publish it for people who are not investing to better see just how fucking evil the company really is...

 

[Recidiva]

I do not need to explain it.

They pay higher than minimum wage and have no shortage of people applying.

If there were few people applying, then they would be forced by circumstance to pay more.

The very real reason that they do not have to pay more is that so many economically illiterate people in this country think they can make laws that will let them come out on top at the expense of their employer. It cannot work for so many reasons that are clear and evident and have been clear and evident for centuries but that never gets through the emotion of envy and distrust so you get more government, more protection, more benefit and a lower standard of living with each improvement aimed solely at the working man.

I didn't say make stuff up and excuse it like it didn't exist.

It is not a myth. I am not slandering anybody or lying about anything. That's just misdirection bullshit.

They should pay more. That they don't isn't illegal, but it is immoral and unethical and it leads to people being unable to make enough money to get their heads above water to get an education to get a better job, because the starting jobs don't have much opportunity for advancement without education and you can, in fact, work yourself into the grave.

I'm asking for one line in a stock prospectus and you protesteth too much.

 

[Recidiva]

It is a tool that is irrelevant to the stockholder as kbate and I pointed out that will do little more than add cost to the business trying to figure it out and publish it for people who are not investing to better see just how fucking evil the company really is...

I'm a stockholder and there's about to be a law about it. You guys may not see it's value, and that's fine. I do.

It should cost approximately $10 to figure out. Max. If it costs more than you're accounting department is fucked up and your CEO is making it impossible for you to get the information and just dragging their heels because they don't want to be publicly embarrassed.

That is not an undue cost, that's obstructionist crap.

 

[CandiCame]

It's nice that you feel that way, I disagree and once someone says "Ayn Rand" other than me usually correcting the fact that it's "Ain" and not "Ann" in my head, I don't care.

She's irrelevant to my universe and I think she's just an excuse to be a selfish dick and blame it on other people if they don't like it.

I do not believe that if you "work hard" you will be rewarded. Life will give you an infinite capacity to work hard and not get ahead.

As a stockholder, I am interested in whether or not a business owner has the practice of allowing people to work hard and get ahead and prosper as the business prospers, and share in that, or if the business owner takes the cash and runs with it, without rewarding those who did the actual work.

It is, in fact, a sign that the business owner is just going to squeeze as much as they can, and as soon as they realize they can't make $15 million a year off of loads of people making less than minimum wage, maybe it isn't as much fun any more. Good. Everybody should have some fun, not just the person setting the pay scale.

A business that grows and prospers together and the workers get the right amount and the owner gets the right amount, shows that management is reasonable and not just made out of bricks of greed that will crumble as soon as they can't abuse people and get away with it.

Terrible selfish person she may be, but without her we wouldn't have BioShock.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I didn't say make stuff up and excuse it like it didn't exist.

It is not a myth. I am not slandering anybody or lying about anything. That's just misdirection bullshit.

They should pay more. That they don't isn't illegal, but it is immoral and unethical and it leads to people being unable to make enough money to get their heads above water to get an education to get a better job, because the starting jobs don't have much opportunity for advancement without education and you can, in fact, work yourself into the grave.

I'm asking for one line in a stock prospectus and you protesteth too much.

I'm a stockholder and there's about to be a law about it. You guys may not see it's value, and that's fine. I do.

It should cost approximately $10 to figure out. Max. If it costs more than you're accounting department is fucked up and your CEO is making it impossible for you to get the information and just dragging their heels because they don't want to be publicly embarrassed.

That is not an undue cost, that's obstructionist crap.

I'm sorry, but I do not know what working has to do with getting an education when government is bending over backwards to make grants and loans a normative act.

The protest is your method of gaining this one line in the prospectus, another government intervention. Tell me how you come up with your cost estimate.

It would seem that you are some big fan then of a wage floor.

What would be your minimum wage?

 

[unregistered]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Divest of any and all stock that does not include that one little line that will make you a better investor.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm sorry, but I do not know what working has to do with getting an education when government is bending over backwards to make grants and loans a normative act.

The protest is your method of gaining this one line in the prospectus, another government intervention. Tell me how you come up with your cost estimate.

It would seem that you are some big fan then of a wage floor.

What would be your minimum wage?

Follow Henry Ford's program. If you are making so much profit that you're trying to impress stockholders by squeezing out more in dividends by cutting labor costs and quality costs, that matters. That's the go-to answer for a company in trouble.

So follow the Ford model where you pay as much as you can across the board according to labor levels and dedication and production.

I think that life costs a certain amount. If you are working a 40 hour week or a 60 hour week or an 80 hour week and you can't make ends meet, it is not because you are not working hard. It is because you are not being paid enough.

Business potential profits have gone up over the years because they can charge more and they do and they can match inflation. Employees cannot benefit from that.

There are plenty companies that do it right and are healthy and don't behave badly to appear good to the stockholders.

They'll be thrilled to show that yes, they pay well, everybody makes money, working here is a good deal and our product is awesome. Thumbs up.

I like Amazon, who tells stockholders "we're investing in the future with our capital, if we went down this quarter, that's acceptable."

Tell the stockholders to fuck off occasionally, you have something good to do with the money.

Over time it will pay off.

 

[CandiCame]

I'm sorry, but I do not know what working has to do with getting an education when government is bending over backwards to make grants and loans a normative act.

The protest is your method of gaining this one line in the prospectus, another government intervention. Tell me how you come up with your cost estimate.

It would seem that you are some big fan then of a wage floor.

What would be your minimum wage?

The absolute bare minimum it should be is $10.74 by our own logic, that demands laws keep with inflation, but if we don't want to be complete dicks about it most financial analysts say it should be between $14-$20.

http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/facts/

http://www.epi.org/publication/declining-federal-minimum-wage-inequality/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/minimum-wage-productivity_n_2680639.html

This is actually a huge problem in our country right now. It's not like there aren't people out there monitoring how bad we fuck up.

 

[Recidiva]

Then you know that what determines your ability to give a pay raise hinges on what you require out of the business yourself. You aren't in business to provide jobs, or to enrich labor, these are costs that must be overcome in order to service the demand you've targeted. while making a profit doing it.

Outside of wages and benefits freely agreed to by individuals and businesses, and the market forces of competition, that business has no moral responsibility to maintain any particular ratio between what the company earns and what the employee, working for wages and benefits, earns.

The goals of the business owner and the goals of the employees are notoriously not in alignment. If you can manage to align goals and reward accordingly, it is, in fact, good for business.

If you can't make enough to pay anybody other than yourself as the business owner well, then you have a poor business plan and it's good that an investor knows that before you fail due to an increasing gap between pay and production intended to compensate for business plan failures.

 

[BotanyBoy]

1. Get the rate of the highest paid.
2. Get the rate of the lowest paid.
3. Determine the ratio.
4. Publish the ratio.

Why is that anyone's fuckin' business???

Explain WalMart.

It's objective is to make money, not to take care of people.

It's a business......duh.

Explain the great vast agribusiness industry that makes good profit off of harvests brought in by illegal and abused labor.

I'll wait.

Duh.....it's a business.... not a fucking charity....what about that is so difficult to understand?

And before you boo hoo about illegal/abused labor like it or not the only reason you live the privileged ass 1st world life that you do is because you benefit from borderline if not outright slave labor.

The only reason you can afford 9/10 the shit you do is b/c some brown kid in a sweat shop or out in a field works for pennies a day.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The goals of the business owner and the goals of the employees are notoriously not in alignment. If you can manage to align goals and reward accordingly, it is, in fact, good for business.

If you can't make enough to pay anybody other than yourself as the business owner well, then you have a poor business plan and it's good that an investor knows that before you fail due to an increasing gap between pay and production intended to compensate for business plan failures.

Wal Mart disagrees....proof is in the pudding.

 

[CandiCame]

Why is that anyone's fuckin' business???



It's objective is to make money, not to take care of people.

It's a business......duh.



Duh.....it's a business.... not a fucking charity....what about that is so difficult to understand?

And before you boo hoo about illegal/abused labor like it or not the only reason you live the privileged ass 1st world life that you do is because you benefit from borderline if not outright slave labor.

The only reason you can afford 9/10 the shit you do is b/c some brown kid in a sweat shop or out in a field works for pennies a day.

And you don't think that's morally objectable?

 

[Recidiva]

Why is that anyone's fuckin' business???

It's objective is to make money, not to take care of people.

It's a business......duh.

Duh.....it's a business.... not a fucking charity....what about that is so difficult to understand?

And before you boo hoo about illegal/abused labor like it or not the only reason you live the privileged ass 1st world life that you do is because you benefit from borderline if not outright slave labor.

The only reason you can afford 9/10 the shit you do is b/c some brown kid in a sweat shop or out in a field works for pennies a day.

Noted and...*shrug*

If you see no value in honest business practices and you're okay with slavery so you get stuff cheap that's up to you. I object.

 

[Recidiva]

Wal Mart disagrees....proof is in the pudding.

And I disagree with WalMart and so do many people and without them this law probably wouldn't exist.

 

[jeninflorida]

Lazy and ignorant people feel thay everyone should be paid the same amoung of money..

Why is that anyone's fuckin' business???



It's objective is to make money, not to take care of people.

It's a business......duh.



Duh.....it's a business.... not a fucking charity....what about that is so difficult to understand?

And before you boo hoo about illegal/abused labor like it or not the only reason you live the privileged ass 1st world life that you do is because you benefit from borderline if not outright slave labor.

The only reason you can afford 9/10 the shit you do is b/c some brown kid in a sweat shop or out in a field works for pennies a day.

 

[richard_daily]

I'd like to see the legislation pass. It's good information. Knowing the disparity between the highest paid and the lowest paid in an organization is information that's important to investors and consumers.

There have been complaints that this is intrusive and difficult to calculate and to that I say - pshaw.

It's more important in an ethical and an economic sense than the glossy cover pictures on the investor prospectus. If you could go to that trouble, you can go to this trouble.

Pass it. Put the data out there and see what happens. Maybe...shame at conspicuous greed? Maybe...treating people a little better? Maybe...shareholders can see whether or not the company they invest in pays an owner multiple millions and the majority of their workforce a pittance?

Let's see what makes companies great, fair treatment or squeezing every last penny from production and giving it to shareholders and a few folks at the top.

Just knowing the gap isn't enough. Place limitations on it... 100 or 150x should be the highest amount anyone working with that company (even by proxy) can be paid.

If you're paying workers in china .17 an hour by hiring another company to do your dirty work, the most you should be able to make is $17 an hour... something like that.