Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

[marieR19]

lol Wow. Those advertisements are interesting!


Heather

 

[Master_n_Mentor]

Since we've been discussing CP, here's a random link - CP images in advertising through the years

Very cool CP images and ad work. Hmmm, so can we say that in the olden days BDSM (or some portion of it) was mainstream... LOL

 

[Pure]

thanks for the images, etoile. some* have a very erotic quality, imo
(rounded pert little butts).

*for example, the shinola one:

http://www.corpun.com/sell8.htm

 

[DaneKK]

New poster's thoughts

Interesting thread. I'll jump in with some thoughts from a newcomer to the boards. I'm newly investigating 'the scene' or 'lifestyle' proper but I have been enjoying bdsm play with my partner for quite some time... that's what brought me here to browse and expand my horizons.

As I'm new here, my thoughts and perspectives may not be in line with the accepted knowledge. I'm struggling with a couple of the acronyms but the content here seems very interesting, it's a credit to the posters. Anyway... I'll get back to the subject of the topic.

I note that we've had input from social work professionals. As a lawyer I have also had to think over issues of abuse, violence and consent. It's not easy to come to a tidy conclusion that can be applied to all cases. I agree with those who are saying there is something fundamentally different between domestic battery/abuse and D/S (insert other acronyms here) type relationships involving 'abuse/violence' which is consented to or even requested.

I think it's possible to imagine an extreme point at which even a TPE relationship would be considered abusive. I say that having not been in a TPE relationship myself but acknowledging that the 'total' part of TPE is essential to the benefits that the willing participants derive that type of relationship.

I imagine that most people enter such a relationship only after a great deal of thought and having known the other party for quite some time and therefore the worst case scenario is not likely, however, I would assume that there is some kind of implied set of norms or expectations which the dom is not expected to breach, notwithstanding that he/she has been expressly granted open slather and the right to surprise and shock and be arbitrary. I don't really want to go into an unnecessarily detailed example of a clear breach of trust/abuse by a dominant but... let's say that the dom intentionally blinded the sub in one eye... it's all fun until someone looses an eye, right?

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think there is a clear difference between domestic violence and D/S relationships due to the consent factor... but that D/S relationships are subject to abuse like all other human relationships. That's just my view, I don't know if some TPE people will now disagree.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Interesting thread. I'll jump in with some thoughts from a newcomer to the boards. I'm newly investigating 'the scene' or 'lifestyle' proper but I have been enjoying bdsm play with my partner for quite some time... that's what brought me here to browse and expand my horizons.

As I'm new here, my thoughts and perspectives may not be in line with the accepted knowledge. I'm struggling with a couple of the acronyms but the content here seems very interesting, it's a credit to the posters. Anyway... I'll get back to the subject of the topic.

I note that we've had input from social work professionals. As a lawyer I have also had to think over issues of abuse, violence and consent. It's not easy to come to a tidy conclusion that can be applied to all cases. I agree with those who are saying there is something fundamentally different between domestic battery/abuse and D/S (insert other acronyms here) type relationships involving 'abuse/violence' which is consented to or even requested.

I think it's possible to imagine an extreme point at which even a TPE relationship would be considered abusive. I say that having not been in a TPE relationship myself but acknowledging that the 'total' part of TPE is essential to the benefits that the willing participants derive that type of relationship.

I imagine that most people enter such a relationship only after a great deal of thought and having known the other party for quite some time and therefore the worst case scenario is not likely, however, I would assume that there is some kind of implied set of norms or expectations which the dom is not expected to breach, notwithstanding that he/she has been expressly granted open slather and the right to surprise and shock and be arbitrary. I don't really want to go into an unnecessarily detailed example of a clear breach of trust/abuse by a dominant but... let's say that the dom intentionally blinded the sub in one eye... it's all fun until someone looses an eye, right?

So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think there is a clear difference between domestic violence and D/S relationships due to the consent factor... but that D/S relationships are subject to abuse like all other human relationships. That's just my view, I don't know if some TPE people will now disagree.

i am in a TPE (though i'm sure many will not agree that the way Master and i live is TPE, but it is in the way we define TPE) and i agree with everything you've said..very well put thank you!

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think it's possible to imagine an extreme point at which even a TPE relationship would be considered abusive. I say that having not been in a TPE relationship myself but acknowledging that the 'total' part of TPE is essential to the benefits that the willing participants derive that type of relationship.

I imagine that most people enter such a relationship only after a great deal of thought and having known the other party for quite some time and therefore the worst case scenario is not likely, however, I would assume that there is some kind of implied set of norms or expectations which the dom is not expected to breach, notwithstanding that he/she has been expressly granted open slather and the right to surprise and shock and be arbitrary. I don't really want to go into an unnecessarily detailed example of a clear breach of trust/abuse by a dominant but... let's say that the dom intentionally blinded the sub in one eye... it's all fun until someone looses an eye, right?

Like rose said, it all depends on individual interpretations of what TPE, in particular 'total', means to those involved. I wouldn't say we knew each other a long time before entering into TPE....less than a year and only a matter of a couple of months after meeting, collaring and marrying...but there was applied thought and discussion involved. The reason thought was so important was because there were no implied set of norms and expectations involved, otherwise for us it wouldn't be TPE, it would just be the same as what we already had, standard D/s, so why bother? Fortunately I was aware I should not have any expectations because there were quite a few things he previously wouldn't consider that have now become favourite things for him to include...and even more planned to change.

I'm also not sure about why it is thought it should be all fun. Neither of us expected it to be easy or all fun, unless it was going to be playtime only and then put on the brakes once things got tough. I think for most, that is what defines the divide between standard models of D/s and TPE....for many it is all about having fun and then stopping once the fun stops, for many in TPE it moves beyond that into something which has both light and dark moments, but most of all applies in totality, not just when it is all moonlight and roses.

Catalina

 

[DaneKK]

I'm also not sure about why it is thought it should be all fun. Neither of us expected it to be easy or all fun...

Catalina

Thanks for sharing your experience Catalina. By the way, I realise it's not all about 'fun'. "It's all fun until someone loses an eye" wasn't meant to be taken purely literally... it's a tongue in cheek reference to the cliched warnings commonly used by school teachers and others to try to put an end to supposedly risky behaviours. Long may you derive whatever benefits you seek from your chosen relationships.

 

[Etoile]

I really like that "light and dark moments" bit.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

i'm 'bumping' my own thread. i think it was a good discussion for the most part, and maybe can help someone..or maybe another good discussion can get brought up *shrugs* or maybe i'm just tired and looking for something to do..and bringing up old threads is always fun

 

[lil_slave_rose]

*bump* because i think there is alot of good discussion here to go along with the other thread that is going on right now about the lifestyle and abuse.....

 

[session9]

Thank you for bumping this thread.
And YES, I do think that abuse happens in BDSM relationships, not necessarily more or less than vanilla relationships, but it's there.

I think the difficult part (particularly in amongst couples who play 'hard') is identifying it. If you're an outsider witnessing a situation you feel is abusive, how do you really know that what you're seeing is abuse and not just hard play... it's difficult.

I would imagine the abused party would essentially need to ask for help or take the first step in leaving the relationship...

 

[ecstaticsub]

Very interesting thread, thanks for the bump

 

[Puman]

A few years ago I helped a submisive friend get away from her Dom. I suspected for some time that there was a problem, but had no idea how to approach the subject with her... I basicaly waited like a coward in the wings for her come to me for help.

Session9 makes a very valid point about how to approach this tricky situation. I was never 100% sure that I was right, until she came to me.

In the other thread, Session, you commented on your fear of "punishment" in the BDSM realm and it leading to/ opening the door to abuse (which would ONLY be valid when dealing with an abusive personality... there are MANY who practice this 'safely').
I do, on a basic level, agree with you here.That is exactly how my friend got trapped. She eventually became too scared to object to anything because the punishments were so severe, not because she wanted to submit.

It took a virtual near death experience in a hospital to bring her round to realising that she was in a dangerous situation.

I think that FEAR aspect you mention is the key. Knowing the difference between fearing an act, pushed limits and experiences and actually fearing your Dom. I think it's a thin line, but one to watch at all times...

 

[Thane1234]

A sub should be the most precious thing in the world to a Dom. He may hurt her in many ways, but only to allow her to become more than she and he can be as one.

Abuse is anathema to a true BDSM relationship in my opinion.

 

[Puman]

A sub should be the most precious thing in the world to a Dom. He may hurt her in many ways, but only to allow her to become more than she and he can be as one.

Abuse is anathema to a true BDSM relationship in my opinion.

And that's exactly how it should be...I think.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I wonder how much BDSM ends up in Court-Jail when a relationship sours.

 

[MasterPhoenix]

A sub should be the most precious thing in the world to a Dom. He may hurt her in many ways, but only to allow her to become more than she and he can be as one.

Abuse is anathema to a true BDSM relationship in my opinion.

Co-sign

 

[rosco rathbone]

Abuse is never right.

But! what may appear as abuse to the eyes of the world, might not be.

I myself score very high on Hedda Nussbaum's "Signs of an Abusive Mate" which I saw reproduced @ TIH this day.

And yet those who know me, know I'd never do abuse.

 

[FungiUg]

I wonder how much BDSM ends up in Court-Jail when a relationship sours.

Probably about the same amount as non-BDSM.

BDSM folk are people, after all, and have all the same bits (good and bad) as non-BDSM folk.

 

[Felonious1]

Bump for a good read.

We kinksters operate and seek partners within a very limited dating/potential partner pool. Many settle for less than compatible partners on one front in order to get core needs met on another front. Clinging too hard and staying too long within a kink relationship seems to have become the norm. Which of course never ends well.

Many are in abusive relationships that are labeled as BDSM type relationships in disguise. Read, study and enlighten yourself. Your perceptions may be altered after all facets and contexts of your relationship dynamics are considered.

Felonious

 

[Stella_Omega]

Felonius, you seem to have a special interest in the badness and wrongness that might be part of kink-- but more often is not.

Why is this such a focus for you?

 

[Felonious1]

Felonius, you seem to have a special interest in the badness and wrongness that might be part of kink-- but more often is not.

Why is this such a focus for you?

For education and enlightenment purposes on the behalf of those who don't currently possess the mentality to accurately determine what is righteous, true and healthy vs flawed, toxic and/or potentially abusive.

Also.........I'm of the opinion there's more unhealthy relationships out there that should be terminated than most have the depth perception and social intelligence to recognize as such to begin with.

JMO......

 

[KoPilot]

I made up a word to describe how my dad treats people he wants to help because "concern troll" wasn't right. One of his chiefest pleasures in life is to push buttons, yes, but the primary motives behind shaming someone in order to help are twofold: his compulsive desire to control people he seems inferior, and validating his "knowledge" and "experience".

So I came up with "conscorn". To use in a sentence: "Felonius is full of conscorn when it comes to this topic."

 

[Stella_Omega]

Conscorn is now part of my vocabulary forever, thank you KoPilot

ETA: ah, now I see where you're coming from.

I'm thinking newbie, really. That absolute certainty that comes from a lack of practical experience... Most of us PYL types can probably remember those days...

 

[Felonious1]

I made up a word to describe how my dad treats people he wants to help because "concern troll" wasn't right. One of his chiefest pleasures in life is to push buttons, yes, but the primary motives behind shaming someone in order to help are twofold: his compulsive desire to control people he seems inferior, and validating his "knowledge" and "experience".

So I came up with "conscorn". To use in a sentence: "Felonius is full of conscorn when it comes to this topic."

We're obviously not on each other's level and if you're unduly frustrated by everything I post, you'd do well to put me on ignore. Snarky personal attack attempts serve no useful purpose here. In all actuality, such antics are a derailing annoyance to those who might actually be looking for true content.

JMO......