Maybe, a dumb question (4 atheists)?

[Bad_Doggie]

I have to say, for the record: I'm a non-believer. I used to get really riled up about it. But after years of life, I strongly believe it's wrong to say that religious people are any less intelligent, logical, or kind than non-religious people. There are irrational and cruel atheists. There are kind and smart theists. I still truly believe that people would be better off if we all operated from a non-superstitious, logical, humane place of mind. But I also accept that everyone has a right to choose whatever path is best for them, and that people can come to that place via different routes. So long as they don't hurt or bother other people, it's all good. When they start hurting others or stopping others from living freely, then they should be stopped - no matter what they do or don't believe.

I think the world would be a much better place if everybody led by example, rather than telling other people what to do - be it what/how to post, what music to listen to, or what to believe.

I’d go with all of that, with one exception.

I don’t think most religious children are let to go their own way, given the facts and allowed to form their own opinion.

What some children are subjected to is nothing more than indoctrination; if it was carried out by a political party or a sect there would be uproar. That it is carried out by main stream religion it somehow gets a pass.

Woof!

 

[girlsmiley]

I have to say, for the record: I'm a non-believer. I used to get really riled up about it. But after years of life, I strongly believe it's wrong to say that religious people are any less intelligent, logical, or kind than non-religious people. There are irrational and cruel atheists. There are kind and smart theists. I still truly believe that people would be better off if we all operated from a non-superstitious, logical, humane place of mind. But I also accept that everyone has a right to choose whatever path is best for them, and that people can come to that place via different routes. So long as they don't hurt or bother other people, it's all good. When they start hurting others or stopping others from living freely, then they should be stopped - no matter what they do or don't believe.

I think the world would be a much better place if everybody led by example, rather than telling other people what to do - be it what/how to post, what music to listen to, or what to believe.

This.

Perfect.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Absolutely. Though I think that people who are Christians have at least the belief in Christ in common, even if the various denominations differ on the fine print. Members of the Tulip Lovers Association* have more in common with each other than do people who are not members. And I don't think you can compare "theists" versus "atheists" because believers that I know don't consider themselves "theists" - they consider themselves Catholics, or Baptists, or Muslims, or Jewish, etc. And those are all defined and structured groups who believe what they do based on interpretations of their literature. In contrast, most atheists don't believe anything necessarily.


*I dunno if there is such a thing. Just typed it as an example.

You should run for office ;-)

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

When I see discussions about 'beliefs' in various things - gods/aliens/miracles/the unseen etc., there is often a sidetrack into the 'why do bad things happen to (ordinary, even 'good') people.

I'm roughly familiar with some theological arguments dealing with that question - and I'd even include Scientology's thoughts (since Cruise is in the news, again!!) in the bunch... But, what do people who are avowedly atheistic, think about this thing about v. bad things happening to good people?

Do atheists have a view of 'evil' that is consistent (and I don't mean to say implicated with divinity or satanic 'beings') with the idea(s) of evil that say a scholarly theist would have?

I am proceeding from the basis that a learned theist will say that this world is somewhat imperfect to the extent that there is an unconcluded conflict here between absolute 'good' and 'evil' and the relevant 'forces,' be they psychological or spiritual or physical, of both.

A person might think a really really bad thing happening is tremendously 'sad,' yet objectively lacking in an absolute moral agency.

Is that what atheists might think?

How do they distinguish the moral intention of someone doing absolute evil? Or is there not such a parameter even within the human race and society?

If there is no such thing as a (human) person who can fully INTEND to do absolute evil (in other words, the behaviour of such a person is not actually 'intended' in the normal sense but is the result of a psychological impairment for instance) then I would also say there is no such thing as a 'supernatural' moral force of objective evil either because there is no equivalency of intelligences between the human and the not-human...

In other words - there is a difference between an intention by an intelligence, and simply an unfortunate set of mechanical and 'un self-conscious' circumstances.

? Or is there? (As far as the thoughtful atheist is concerned?) And I'd prefer to hear from the thoughtful ones, rather than the casual or gratuitously dismissive ones.

Good and Bad are subjective.

Morality is based upon the Natural Rights as best put forth by the classic Liberalism at the time of the Founding and really needs no God to still be true.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=802444

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

i started falling asleep less than 1/4 of the way through.
you need to get the point and make it pointier.

If it had been about a personal sexual experience, your complaint would have been brevity...

 

[Wat_Tyler]

I think the world would be a much better place if everybody led by example . . . .

Yes, attraction, and not promotion.


Zealots never can see the difference, not the ones I've talked to.

 

[ChinaBandit]

The problem with Christianity is that it is tied to salvation. Somehow, we are all sinners in this world and our best hope is to be saved in the afterlife. To do exactly what, I don't know. I refuse to believe that I need to be saved! I dislike Buddhism for their view that our instinctual wants are burdens and sufferings.

I think we should all be MOST busy enjoying this life! It is a very real possibility that what follows is the 'great nothing.'

I am fine with religious teachings focused on making humanity better. As for heaven? Fuck that. We are either in heaven now or as close as we will ever get to the concept in my opinion.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Bad things happen to good people because of free will and free volition. You can sit on your ass eating up mom's groceries or you can shoot-up a school or you can lead a desperate soul out of the abyss to a better place. You get one life to spend how you want.

Locally 3 high school boys tortured and killed a drunk sleeping in the woods. They beat him with boards, dropped concrete blocks on his head, and pissed on him. He lived long enough to reveal the identity of one of the boys; GAME OVER. The boys will likely be back on the street sooner than later, cuz, yuh know, theyre children.

I personally know 3 guys on death row who murdered harmless people. Two have been there 30 years, and one for 15 years. All were 18 or 19 when they went to prison.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

This.

Perfect.

Naaah. Laurel misses the boat in one obvious way, you cant pantomime BRIDGE OUT AHEAD!

 

[ChinaBandit]

Bad things happen to good people because of free will and free volition. You can sit on your ass eating up mom's groceries or you can shoot-up a school or you can lead a desperate soul out of the abyss to a better place. You get one life to spend how you want.

Locally 3 high school boys tortured and killed a drunk sleeping in the woods. They beat him with boards, dropped concrete blocks on his head, and pissed on him. He lived long enough to reveal the identity of one of the boys; GAME OVER. The boys will likely be back on the street sooner than later, cuz, yuh know, theyre children.

I personally know 3 guys on death row who murdered harmless people. Two have been there 30 years, and one for 15 years. All were 18 or 19 when they went to prison.

Yes and it has nothing to do with belief in God or not.

If anyone is hopeful of some sort of retribution in these cases after death. Well, my guess is that you will be quite disappointed. You can surely exact retribution in this life only by denying these dreadful humans things including freedom of movement. Alternatively, you can end their runs and send them to the great nothing sooner than natures course. I support either option.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Yes and it has nothing to do with belief in God or not.

If anyone is hopeful of some sort of retribution in these cases after death. Well, my guess is that you will be quite disappointed. You can surely exact retribution in this life only by denying these dreadful humans things including freedom of movement. Alternatively, you can end their runs and send them to the great nothing sooner than natures course. I support either option.

I often encourage folks to read THE ORIGIN OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BICAMERAL MIND by Julian Jaynes.

In a nutshell, the historical and archeological record supports the proposition that until 500BC people were schizophrenic, that is, experienced their 'unconscious' selves as gods who commanded, guided, and counseled people via visual and auditory hallucinations. I believe plenty of such people are alive and well today.

'Consciousness' for this proposition is a sense of autonomy and Captain of my fate attitude.

 

[ishtat]

There is no causal relationship between either theism or atheism on the one hand, or ethical behavior on the other.

The fallacy that such a relationship exists drives an awful lot of agendas.

 

[SalviaDivinorum]

I have to say, for the record: I'm a non-believer. I used to get really riled up about it. But after years of life, I strongly believe it's wrong to say that religious people are any less intelligent, logical, or kind than non-religious people. There are irrational and cruel atheists. There are kind and smart theists. I still truly believe that people would be better off if we all operated from a non-superstitious, logical, humane place of mind. But I also accept that everyone has a right to choose whatever path is best for them, and that people can come to that place via different routes. So long as they don't hurt or bother other people, it's all good. When they start hurting others or stopping others from living freely, then they should be stopped - no matter what they do or don't believe.

I think the world would be a much better place if everybody led by example, rather than telling other people what to do - be it what/how to post, what music to listen to, or what to believe.

I personally don't think that religion was created to offer moral guidance. And yes, the words “was created” in that sentence mean that I think that religions are human attempts at answering those fundamental existential questions of who we are and what our place in the universe is.

Remember sitting around a campfire with friends, talking about love, hate, life and death? Or being out on a crisp, starry night, trying to grasp the idea of eternity, both in terms of time and space? I think those are the feelings that fuel our impulse to spirituality and our urge to search for answers, hence both science and religion.

When it comes to morality in terms of good and evil, it seems interesting that most cultures have the same taboos (don't kill, don't steal) and the same encouraged behaviours (respect people, respect nature, respect life). That tells me that those concepts are important enough for our survival to be universally absorbed on a fundamental level. Because humans live in social structures - sharing space with other humans rather than on their own patch - I even think our sense of what's right or wrong, our sense of fairness and our sense of good and bad is an instinctual - if not instinctive - tool of survival. But I'm neither a behavioural scientist nor an anthropologist, so I could well be wrong.

So, on a completely personal level, I am an atheist because no organised religion has ever come close to explaining life and the universe to me and quite honestly, I don't expect it to. I don't deny the possibility of the existence of a god - or many gods - since I can neither prove nor disprove their existence, but on a really basic level, the idea that God created the world does not answer the question of "who created God?"

 

[Wat_Tyler]

http://i.likes-media.com/uimg/03047b6500d00cb8d737d82b267f4d49.600x

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I personally don't think that religion was created to offer moral guidance. And yes, the words “was created” in that sentence mean that I think that religions are human attempts at answering those fundamental existential questions of who we are and what our place in the universe is.

Remember sitting around a campfire with friends, talking about love, hate, life and death? Or being out on a crisp, starry night, trying to grasp the idea of eternity, both in terms of time and space? I think those are the feelings that fuel our impulse to spirituality and our urge to search for answers, hence both science and religion.

When it comes to morality in terms of good and evil, it seems interesting that most cultures have the same taboos (don't kill, don't steal) and the same encouraged behaviours (respect people, respect nature, respect life). That tells me that those concepts are important enough for our survival to be universally absorbed on a fundamental level. Because humans live in social structures - sharing space with other humans rather than on their own patch - I even think our sense of what's right or wrong, our sense of fairness and our sense of good and bad is an instinctual - if not instinctive - tool of survival. But I'm neither a behavioural scientist nor an anthropologist, so I could well be wrong.

So, on a completely personal level, I am an atheist because no organised religion has ever come close to explaining life and the universe to me and quite honestly, I don't expect it to. I don't deny the possibility of the existence of a god - or many gods - since I can neither prove nor disprove their existence, but on a really basic level, the idea that God created the world does not answer the question of "who created God?"

Richard Feynman, an atheist, observed that atheists cant escape the fly in the ointment of their conviction: WHY IS THERE SOMETHING INSTEAD OF NOTHING?

 

[SalviaDivinorum]

I sometimes think that because our lives are physical and finite, it might be impossible for us to truly understand infinity and nothingness.

But if you accept your existence as a fact (which I do) then the "something" is not a fly in any ointment. I'm willing to have the something explained by any theory or idea that sparkles brightly with logic.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I sometimes think that because our lives are physical and finite, it might be impossible for us to truly understand infinity and nothingness.

But if you accept your existence as a fact (which I do) then the "something" is not a fly in any ointment. I'm willing to have the something explained by any theory or idea that sparkles brightly with logic.

As smart as we are what we knew for sure in the late 19th Century didn't include the bulk of what we know now. The nature of infection and germs (they had no idea), atomic energy, powered flight, genetics, computers, organ transplants, etc.

Every generation of atheists embrace the same arrogance and hubris about reality. We really need to chill-out and stop taking ourselves seriously. When push comes to shove we don't know what remains to be learned.

 

[SalviaDivinorum]

I don't have a position that I need to defend here. All I said was that I can't find any religion that can explain life and the universe to me without also requiring a large dose of faith to get over the very difficulties that I ponder over as an atheist.

But, you know, live and let live.

 

[KRCummings]

I think the question of why bad things happen to good people is stupid. Do people really expect life to be fair? How fucking ignorant do you have to be to think it will ever be fair in any way? No religion teaches that. No atheists believes it. So why ask?
Fucking idiots.

 

[Laurel]

I think the question of why bad things happen to good people is stupid. Do people really expect life to be fair? How fucking ignorant do you have to be to think it will ever be fair in any way? No religion teaches that. No atheists believes it. So why ask?
Fucking idiots.

This.

/thread

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I don't have a position that I need to defend here. All I said was that I can't find any religion that can explain life and the universe to me without also requiring a large dose of faith to get over the very difficulties that I ponder over as an atheist.

But, you know, live and let live.

Youre my excuse to attack librul morons in general, and to alert readers that libruls believe they know all but don't.

 

[SalviaDivinorum]

Youre my excuse to attack librul morons in general, and to alert readers that libruls believe they know all but don't.

I'm sure that'll learn'em libruls.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'm sure that'll learn'em libruls.

Its impossible to learn a librul anything. That's why theyre libruls. They see ponies beneath every large pile of shit Obama unloads.

 

[Tryharder62]

I think it's natural for thinking beings to want to find out the why to any question. Why do bad things happen to good people? I think everything that happens good and bad happens to teach us something. Sometimes it ticks me off that I have to learn something because something bad happened. I consider myself a Christian and I look at it that there is a bigger picture than what we see. God doesn't cause bad things to happen but he has given us free will that has consequences. I would rather have free will than go around as a little God robot. I just wanted to share a different perspective. These are my thoughts alone. Good luck on your quest.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

To SalviniaD in particular: oh I'd love to see a theory or idea THAT SPARKLES BRIGHTLY WITH LOGIC! : ) I wish!

Don't ever see too many of them around anywhere much though, that's for sure.

...My original post was spurred by something I was watching, and I just wanted to know what thoughts others had about the broadest consideration of the subject. It was a very broad generality I was thinking about and I didn't really have any specific position or idea in mind myself, but I did want to see what people thought about 'evil,' 'good/bad' and whether or not people had fixed conceptions of 'evil.'

I was wondering whether less dogmatic people - or let's say more avant garde thinkers - have any novel conceptions or insights that they have been able to draw from more diverse sources than the common and obvious ones.